Expansion The AFL is not the VFL thread

[telsor]

It became a new competition..it may have adopted certain rules from it's defunct comp

VFL wasn't defunct, it just changed it's name.

It retained just about everything else. Brownlow medal, Coleman, sponsors stayed on, legal contracts remained valid...All that changed was 1 letter.

 

[telsor]

It can retain all it likes The VFL expanded...it needed to become a national comp, to accommodate it's expansion that it ceased to be and became the AFL 1st Jan 1990....the VFA took over the VFL name..and reserve teams traditional to the old VFL joined that league..

So you agree it's the same competition.

Problem solved.

 

[telsor]

Not at all...it evolved from that comp..The VFL evolved from the VFA...are they the same comp? ...it's a bygone comp that has no relevance on todays competition..Nice little history etc but you might as well count premierships from 1990, as that is the official start date of the AFL and would be more relevant to today's comp

No, the VFL didn't evolve from the VFA, they split from it, forming a new comp.

The VFL/AFL is one continuous competition however, legally and historically.

 

[telsor]

LOL....really?...evolve is to grow or to develop out of something else...The VFL did split from the VFA..so it developed from it......The VFL expanded and grew and developed into the AFL...that became official 1/1/1990

Not anything near the same thing however.

Ultimately though, the final authority on this is the AFL itself, and IT SAYS it's the same competition.

 

[telsor]

So you're agreeing with me....As the AFL recognise the VFA history, the VFL History and the AFL historyl as separate identities..

http://www.afl.com.au/afl-hq/the-afl-explained/chronology

No, the AFL considers the VFL & AFL history to be the same.

How many premierships to they say each team has?

How many brownlows have been given out?

etc.

 

[telsor]

So you're agreeing with me....As the AFL recognise the VFA history, the VFL History and the AFL historyl as separate identities..

http://www.afl.com.au/afl-hq/the-afl-explained/chronology

BTW...from that link.

1990

Jan 1: The VFL renamed as the AFL.

Note the word used....renamed

Define: Rename
verb
to give a new name to


Not, 'restarted', or anything that would imply a new beginning, merely that the name changed.

 

[The_Wookie]

Not at all...it evolved from that comp..The VFL evolved from the VFA.

The VFL clubs outright split from the VFA. It did not "evolve". Its not remotely close to what happened in 1990.

Nah..the national comp started in 1990 anything prior to that is irrelevant

See: the Centenary of the AFL (celebrated in 1996)

Not to mention advertising

It can retain all it likes ...The VFL expanded...it needed to become a national comp, to accommodate it's expansion and represent all States. . it ceased to be and became the AFL 1st Jan 1990....the VFA took over the VFL name..and reserve teams traditional to the old VFL joined that league..

The VFA didnt become the VFL for years after the AFL rebranded. We had the VSFL up until 1999.

So you're agreeing with me....As the AFL recognise the VFA history, the VFL History and the AFL historyl as separate identities..

http://www.afl.com.au/afl-hq/the-afl-explained/chronology

They recognise VFA history separately but clearly VFL history is not separate. See also premiership tallies, not to mention the fact that the Coleman Medal was backdated from 1955 until 1897 - and that backdating happened in 2004!

Try this...it's more relevant to the discussion

http://asic.gov.au/for-business/reg...-trading-name-business-name-and-company-name/

See Brand names and Franchise names


http://asic.gov.au/for-business/ren...-details/how-to-update-business-name-details/

Updating your business name
You cannot change your registered business name.
If you want to trade under a new or different name, you must register a new one.
Information on how to update details relating to your existing business name registration are listed below

Have you looked at the entry for the Australian Football League?

Note the registration date of 1929.

So if you follow all the above...as of the 1/1/1990, a new business was registered, new franchise licences issued to those entitys/ teams (re-branded) partaking/operating under this new business..

New licenses were definitely NOT issued to clubs in 1990.[/QUOTE]

 

[madmug]

It doesnt need to be asked, its been answered time and time again. The AFL and the old VFL are the same organisation, with the new teams and a brand change. That is the official position of the league. Its why we have grand finals at the MCG, we hand out the Brownlow Medal, Coleman Medal, and the Mclelland Trophy. Its why all AFL records go back to 1897.

So why do the premiership cups up until 1990 say VFL? The AFL records go back to 1990 when they changed from the VFL. You can say the records of the AFL go back to 1929, but everything had VFL on it, I wonder why

 

[The_Wookie]

So why do the premiership cups up until 1990 say VFL? The AFL records go back to 1990 when they changed from the VFL. You can say the records of the AFL go back to 1929, but everything had VFL on it, I wonder why

Because the brand changed. Its that simple.

AFL records DONT go back to 1990, thats an absolute fallacy. The name AFL might go back to 1990, but its records go back almost a hundred years before that. see any of its awards, its premiership count, its attendance records, membership records, and its asic registration records etc etc.

Also - see the centenary year. The AFL celebrated its centenary in 1996. Not only did all of its advertising proclaim it was the leagues centenary year, but it also released an official book/video - "100 Years of Australian Football - The Complete Story of the AFL".

 

[greatwhiteshark]

Because the brand changed. Its that simple.

AFL records DONT go back to 1990, thats an absolute fallacy. The name AFL might go back to 1990, but its records go back almost a hundred years before that. see any of its awards, its premiership count, its attendance records, membership records, and its asic registration records etc etc.

Also - see the centenary year. The AFL celebrated its centenary in 1996. Not only did all of its advertising proclaim it was the leagues centenary year, but it also released an official book/video - "100 Years of Australian Football - The Complete Story of the AFL".

Why did the brand change? To recognise what? That the league is now a National league? As opposed to a suburban state league?
Same continuous comp, vastly different organisation now with vastly different responsibilities.

 

[The_Wookie]

Why did the brand change? To recognise what? That the league is now a National league? As opposed to a suburban state league?
Same continuous comp, vastly different organisation now with vastly different responsibilities.

Brand change represented a shift in direction, yes, but was in no way a physically different company to that in 1989. In fact between 1990 and 1989, nothing else about the league changed whatsoever. The VFL Board of Directors became the AFL Board of Directors - with the same people on it, and the same people sat on the AFL Commission as the VFL Commission for that matter. Ross Oakleys position and title didnt change until 1993.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

Brand change represented a shift in direction, yes, but was in no way a physically different company to that in 1989. In fact between 1990 and 1989, nothing else about the league changed whatsoever. The VFL Board of Directors became the AFL Board of Directors - with the same people on it, and the same people sat on the AFL Commission as the VFL Commission for that matter. Ross Oakleys position and title didnt change until 1993.

They are two totally different beasts, the fact one grew into the other makes no difference.
VFL = Chalk
AFL = Cheese

 

[sherb]

They are two totally different beasts, the fact one grew into the other makes no difference.
VFL = Chalk
AFL = Cheese

For the purposes of history and record keeping, they are the same competition.

Exactly the same principle would have applied if the WAFL had morphed into the national competition instead of the VFL.

As for the subject of the thread, if anyone has an issue with the lack of equity in the current competition, then they must surely include the Grand Final venue as part of that inequity.

I can't see how you can argue otherwise.

 

[The_Wookie]

1) It was never registered as a new "AFL" entity. Ive actually shown you the asic registration for this and yet somehow you just dont get it.
2) VFL dates are recorded on the AFL chronology, what a surprise. Also the official AFL Centenary Book and video for that matter (that centenary was in 1996). VFL progress reports going back to 1897 are found in the back of Annual Reports dating up to 1999.
3) Neither the board of directors, nor the commission changed one iota - and didnt until 1993. The business remained at VFL house (which was also renamed), and its own stadium (VFL Park) was also rebadged to AFL Park. Literally nothing about the VFL changed except the branding.
4) See again: the unrefutable centenary year celebrations in 1996. No matter what your argument is, theres simply no way around that.

As for Licenses involving other leagues - what the hell are you on? No other state changed its name in 1990. The QAFL remained the QAFL until 1996. The WAFL remained and still remains the WAFL.

The definition of evolve is cool. At no point does your definition mean a new entity was created out of thin air.

 

[The_Wookie]

it's actually you who doesn't get it.....an acn is just a unique company number it remains unchanged even if a company has a name change... or is deregistered... .end of story..Ie vfl to AFL..so it can be passed on..However. You cannot change your registered business name.
If you want to trade under a new or different name, you must register a new one...

here you go..
http://sitesearch.asic.gov.au/s/search.html?query=renaming+a+business&collection=asic&profile=asic


all of the above is listed on the ASIC information page..direct link here

http://asic.gov.au/for-business/ren...-details/how-to-update-business-name-details/

Knock yourself out.

go to abn look ups and check the historical details on other entities. that fall under that...
Cheers

You do realise that the ABN system wasnt even introduced until the year 2000?

as far as premierships are concerned the AFL has recocgnised them as seperate

Geelong to record - with AFL approval - that it has 16 titles in total: Seven VFA premierships (1878, 1879, 1880, 1882, 1883, 1884, 1886), six VFL flags (1925, 1931, 1937, 1951, 1952, 1963) and three AFL premierships (2007, 2009 and 2011).

Port Adelaide’s record is 37 titles - 36 SANFL premierships and one AFL flag in 2004.

The AFL formally stated today: “Each club will have the option to decide how it will recognise its history across VFA/VFL or SANFL for Port Adelaide and AFL.


The VFL-AFL has its own discreet history from 1897 to 1990 when the name of the competition changed to the AFL,” Fitzpatrick said


http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/sport...k=4976eebc74052ce48cbf638b5260bdd6-1470955164


View attachment 275758

Literally a name change to reflect a shift in focus. Nothing more. And certainly not uncommon.


Its funny isnt it, how in 2010 the league never referred to it as the first AFL grand final draw, but the third one. Guess when the other two were? In the 40s and 70s. Even the AFL Chronology refers to it as the third one. Its funny how the league celebrated its 100th birthday in 1996. Its funny how Annual reports continue to list premiers and medal winners going back to 1897 too.

But nothing is ever going to convince you or any of the others on this, whatever the documentation says. So I think Ill move all these posts to a more apropriate thread.

 

[The_Wookie]

That's the second time you've read more or misinterpreted things that are actually written.Not sure the relevance asking me when an ABN was introduced but totally aware of when it was introduced How did you get that from.. "check the historical details on other entities. that fall under that"?...As far as the Grand Final draw is concerned as I said earlier the AFL can add anything it likes to make it's history.... and it has started to acknowledge it from the article above AFL Commission chairman Mike Fitzpatrick today/yesterday declared the AFL would “endorse the recognition of premierships and player statistics for the period 1870-1896.” The AFL formally stated “Each club will have the option to decide how it will recognise its history across VFA/VFL or SANFL for Port Adelaide and AFL.”...Clubs can now show different competition premierships that must be “delineated,”

Geelong can now show Seven VFA premierships (1878, 1879, 1880, 1882, 1883, 1884, 1886), Six VFL flags (1925, 1931, 1937, 1951, 1952, 1963) and three AFL premierships (2007, 2009 and 2011)..

The fact remains that there was no change in the structure of the competition nor the Commission that ran it until 1993 when the Board of Directors was resolved and replaced by the independent commission. This isnt arguable, its established fact. Further the VFL Commission could not have shut down and replaced itself with an AFL Commission without the formal vote of the VFL Board of Directors - this vote never took place in or before 1990.

What you are saying is literally at odds with everything the AFL has officially written, including the recollections of Ross Oakley who described it as representing a change of focus, not a change of corporation. You are taking the dilineation comments out of context since they specifically refer to attempts to recognise premierships won by clubs when in the VFA. AFL records have ALWAYS included VFL records without backdating - although some were backdated past their 1950s founding dates (like the Coleman for instance). Again I point you to official AFl documentation including its centenrary celebrations -not least being the Team of The Century, the official book/video that came with it, or any number of AFL Annual Reports written after it - something which you have studiously ignored in the comments you continue to post on the matter.

Then theres the numerous references in AFL Annual Reports and other media to medals awarded, premierships won, membership numbers, crowds and even TV rights.

Citing ABNs when no such ABN can be looked up for the VFL due to the fact ABNS didnt exist. Apparently the use of the ACN which DOES specifically point out that the AFL was formerly known as the VFL is of absolutely no consequence though. Right. (Evidently you can change a registered business name by the way, as long as its available. Ross Oakley states the VFL had to buy the rights to the name off John Adams for costs plus AFL season tickets in The Phoenix Rises - note that Oakley also refers to it as a rebranding.)

However, “Australian Football League” was now the name that pushed all the right buttons— clearly it was a perfect fit. But sadly, someone else owned it. That person was Adams, who had been smart enough to register the name. As it turned out, it was much better in his hands than in the hands of someone who did not have a deep love of the game and was not involved as Adams had been over the years. His name was associated with many of the important reports that had made up the football intelligence of the 1980s, he had provided considerable assistance to the West Coast Eagles during their development phase, and he was steeped in football’s traditions.

There was little doubt that Adams would eventually provide the name to us should we wish to rebrand our national football league, albeit not without some to-ing and fro-ing. I believe his delay in doing a deal was more about recognition for his protecting the name than wanting to profit substantially from it, although he did ask for some recompense. The commission felt that Adams should gain some reward for what was a fairly canny piece of name registration, but we didn’t want to be held to ransom.

 

[Gigantor]

Because the brand changed. Its that simple.

AFL records DONT go back to 1990, thats an absolute fallacy. The name AFL might go back to 1990, but its records go back almost a hundred years before that. see any of its awards, its premiership count, its attendance records, membership records, and its asic registration records etc etc.

Also - see the centenary year. The AFL celebrated its centenary in 1996. Not only did all of its advertising proclaim it was the leagues centenary year, but it also released an official book/video - "100 Years of Australian Football - The Complete Story of the AFL".

There's no doubting that the VFL became the AFL, and continued on.

An interesting point I picked up in your snapshots was that the name Australian Football League was registered in 1929.

Does anyone know who registered the name at that time?

 

[The_Wookie]

There's no doubting that the VFL became the AFL, and continued on.

An interesting point I picked up in your snapshots was that the name Australian Football League was registered in 1929.

Does anyone know who registered the name at that time?

Australian Football League wasnt registered in 1929. Victorian Football League was.

 

[Gigantor]

Australian Football League wasnt registered in 1929. Victorian Football League was.

Ok, I can see that now - although it raises another interesting question, that a comp formed in 1897 only registered its actual name (or incorporated) in 1929. It might have something to do with the different regulations existing at the time, but I would have thought it was possible to register business names and/or incorporate prior to 1929.

 

[madmug]

Ok, I can see that now - although it raises another interesting question, that a comp formed in 1897 only registered its actual name (or incorporated) in 1929. It might have something to do with the different regulations existing at the time, but I would have thought it was possible to register business names and/or incorporate prior to 1929.

I just shows the rather strange call that although the AFL name only goes back to 1990, its records go back to 1897! Forget the fact the VFL only registered in 1929.

It takes a lot of mental gymnastics to follow that logic. To start as a state based suburban competition & to count those state based premierships amongst those won by teams competing in a national competition. That surely is the definition of an arrogant imagination.

 

[telsor]

Ok, I can see that now - although it raises another interesting question, that a comp formed in 1897 only registered its actual name (or incorporated) in 1929. It might have something to do with the different regulations existing at the time, but I would have thought it was possible to register business names and/or incorporate prior to 1929.

Probably wasn't considered necessary.

That said, we're talking about around when Australia formed...(VFL predates federation after all) and a number of laws took a while to put together/transfer from the states/colonies.

So while companies are a federal thing, it could be that they were using some kind of Victorian registration they were using before that, although I think it's more likely that they didn't bother as they didn't see a need. Hell, maybe sporting bodies were considered eligible to register names before then.

Any number of options really.

 

[telsor]

I just shows the rather strange call that although the AFL name only goes back to 1990, its records go back to 1897! Forget the fact the VFL only registered in 1929.

It takes a lot of mental gymnastics to follow that logic. To start as a state based suburban competition & to count those state based premierships amongst those won by teams competing in a national competition. That surely is the definition of an arrogant imagination.

and yet, everyone else in the country wants into that arrogant, state based competition that considers it's history to go back to 1897...

Remember, the VFL expanded because everyone else wanted in...They didn't force anyone to join, and as I recall, you're rather in favor of Tasmania joining this expanded suburban competition too.

 

[madmug]

and yet, everyone else in the country wants into that arrogant, state based competition that considers it's history to go back to 1897...

Remember, the VFL expanded because everyone else wanted in...They didn't force anyone to join, and as I recall, you're rather in favor of Tasmania joining this expanded suburban competition too.

As usual, your answer has nothing to do with the thread.

 

[The_Wookie]

I just shows the rather strange call that although the AFL name only goes back to 1990, its records go back to 1897! Forget the fact the VFL only registered in 1929.

It takes a lot of mental gymnastics to follow that logic. To start as a state based suburban competition & to count those state based premierships amongst those won by teams competing in a national competition. That surely is the definition of an arrogant imagination.

having a name change doesnt change the entity itself. It may indicate a change in direction or marketing. And no one is going to argue that the League experienced a shift in focus - that began in 1986, and was recognised with a change of name and brand in 1990. The company remained ostensibly the same though.

As another example take Telstra. From 1975 to 1993 it was known as Telecom Australia before rebranding in 1993 to become Telstra. No one in their right mind would claim its not the same company that was founded in 1975, despite massive expansion.

The League has a right to look after its own history. The SANFL and WAFL fought fiercely enough for their independence, they should be quite capable of looking after their own.

 

[telsor]

As usual, your answer has nothing to do with the thread.

And yours did?