- Sep 23, 2008
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And the mind-blowing scrumpy!!!
Mega Thread The book thread.
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And the mind-blowing scrumpy!!!
- Thread starter
- #77
Yeah great place. Had a sense of historic mystery that is hard to explain.
You might find the Devon and Somerset yokels argue the point there. And across the water the Normans might have a say as well.
iluvparis
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- Apr 1, 2005
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Has anyone read 'The Hour Between Dog and Wolf'?
Solid waste of my 7500th post.
Solid waste of my 7500th post.
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- Thread starter
- #79
No and that is a serious criticism by your good self
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- #80
http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-e...-lives-of-all-45-of-our-monarchs-9904553.html
Looks like a worthy series.
Looks like a worthy series.
- Thread starter
- #81
Informative, somtimes riveting, but the narrative style delivery verged at times to sarcasm. Sarcasm aimed at both the Chinese and the British for balance and I would add no doubt deserved but maybe a little too obvious for my liking. I would also add that the 2nd part of the Opium War received one far too short chapter considering the title. Maybe the author lost patience as the final couple of chapters, consisting of opinion discussion on how the Chinese used the Opium Wars for propaganda purposes were interesting but were much long for me. The wars themselves should have been the majority of the story.
The book finished with a very good timeline and footnotes and an excellent bibliography to end a good if flawed book. I have learnt more about the astonishingly interesting history of China so have no issue per se in recommending this to the new reader to the subject.
- Thread starter
- #82
It is hard to exaggerate the sheer chilling effect this book by Frank Dikötter can have. It has made me realise that the statement by Gordon Kerr in his primer A Short History Of China that the death tolls in China throughout its documented 4000 years of history are ........"often staggering, demonstrating not only a disdain for human life" and with that also providing a "vast and inexhaustible supply of manpower". In the end this book brings the disdain and inexhaustible supply into focus.
The book itself is in 6 parts with the first 2 parts "The Pursuit of Utopia" and "Through the Valley of Death" covering the history of The Great Leap Forward with the final 4 parts discussing the effects on all parts of Chinese life from the lowly peasant through to the political consequences. There is " An Essay on the Sources" that is a vital explanation of the research used to produce this history.
There have been and still are debates as to what Communism is. I, in a way, hardly care because after reading this book to my mind the Chinese Communist Party during the Great Leap Forward was attempting a form of State Corporatism that has had nothing comparable historically except maybe Stalinist USSR?
I could no doubt real off the statistics on the death and destruction etc that Dikötter has researched but in the end I might bring to the attention of the reader strange little chapter called "Nature" in part 3 "Destruction". It seems to me that the Chinese have been "fighting" nature for many a long century from attempts to control the various floods and other natural events that blight all nations. During The Great Leap Forward the "fight" against nature was at times, to use a word from Dikötter, bizarre. Historically China had depleted it forest for various reasons such as need for firewood etc but The Great Leap Forward at the behest of Mao took it to a new level. "there is a new war: we should open fire on nature" he said and so they did. Forests were decimated, mountains levelled as backyard furnaces flourished in some egotistical attempt to outstrip British steel production. It reached a point that after the destruction of the forests that farmers took to felling their orchards to keep warm during the winters. The consequences of that are obvious. In the end drainage systems became blocked with mud and silt as the rains caused even more issues to the many thousands of square kilometres of barren lands and with that the villages and towns that suffered flooding and starvation. Hu Yoabang travelled heavily during 1961 and denied the effect of the rains as a cause of the devastation stating "the rainfall was basically normal".
Dikötter covers other areas such as the over use of pesticides, pollution, etc but the war on nature well and truly reached the heights of bizarre in 1958 with Mao's call to eliminate rats, flies, mosquitoes and sparrows. The war on sparrows reaches the point of being weirder than fantasy. Sparrows were targeted because they ate grain, the fruits of the labour of the masses, and so began a mass mobilisation to conquer them. For several days nests were attacked, sparrows shot out of the air with thousands of people banging drums etc forcing petrified sparrows to fall from the air from exhaustion. Shanghai reported that it had eliminated 1,367,440 of this pesky bird. FWIW Shanghai also eliminated 1,213.05 cockroaches for good measure. By April 1960 the realisation was that sparrows ate insects but it was then too late as they were now almost extinct. Insect infestation ruined crops and with that further famine. Locusts had a great time as well.
One of the consequences of The Great Leap Forward was the loss of reputation of Mao within the party. But he fought back with the Cultural Revolution in 1966. Dikötter has had access to various archives hence this book and The Tragedy of Liberation: A history of the Chinese Revolution 1945-1957. Hopefully he writes a book on The Cultural Revolution as this would be an excellent trilogy on the Mao years.
I strongly recommend this book to anyone with interest in the astonishing and always fascinating history of the Middle Kingdom.
In the name of Rome. A book by Adrian Goldsworthy and he focuses on the generals who won the Roman Republic/Empire.
Just finished reading this one:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Return_of_a_King
A brilliant history of the lead up to and the events of the British trouncing by the Afghans in 1839-1842, sourced from accounts fo both the English and Afghan people involved. So many similarities to the things that have happened in conflicts in the region since, it's not funny.
Highly recommended.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Return_of_a_King
A brilliant history of the lead up to and the events of the British trouncing by the Afghans in 1839-1842, sourced from accounts fo both the English and Afghan people involved. So many similarities to the things that have happened in conflicts in the region since, it's not funny.
Highly recommended.
The Opium War: Drugs, Dreams and the making of China by Julia Lovell.
Informative, somtimes riveting, but the narrative style delivery verged at times to sarcasm. Sarcasm aimed at both the Chinese and the British for balance and I would add no doubt deserved but maybe a little too obvious for my liking. I would also add that the 2nd part of the Opium War received one far too short chapter considering the title. Maybe the author lost patience as the final couple of chapters, consisting of opinion discussion on how the Chinese used the Opium Wars for propaganda purposes were interesting but were much long for me. The wars themselves should have been the majority of the story.
The book finished with a very good timeline and footnotes and an excellent bibliography to end a good if flawed book. I have learnt more about the astonishingly interesting history of China so have no issue per se in recommending this to the new reader to the subject.
My maternal grandfather claimed descent from a Chinese opium war general.
I've never seen or heard of any proof of this but I like to believe it is true
- Moderator
- #86
In light of the passing of Colleen McCollough, I've begun re-reading her Masters of Rome series. Incredibly well researched, this historical fiction taught me more about the workings of Republican Rome than many non-fiction books on the same subject.
Vale Colleen.
Vale Colleen.
- Thread starter
- #87
Vale Colleen.
I have to admit that I never read Colleen but I liked her when interviewed. Seemed a very down to earth person. And a very popular author and nothing wrong with popular. I guess that the fact she wrote Roman based historical fiction is a very good thing as it may have introduced many others to Roman history.
On a personal level I have not read much historical fiction and in fact am struggling to recall any. I have to admit that I am not that particularly au faux with Roman history other than a bit I have read about in my vast reading of Britain. I did though read Rubicon Triumph and Tragedy of the Roman Republic by Tom Holland. I knew that this was very popular so was looking forward to it but have to admit that I was left absolutely cold. It read as a novel.
With that in mind I am not trying to compare Coleen's historical fiction to Tom Hollands far too "popular" style history but I do have a bit of "how longs a piece string" question. As a teacher of history why do you read historical fiction? Is it a form of lighter entertainment compared to what you might have to read based on your career?
On introducing people to Roman history - I can't be the only one who only first found out about Byzantium and the 1000 years it lasted post the fall of Rome from Age of Kings
- Thread starter
- #89
I have A Short History of Byzantium by John Julius Norwich that i am yet to read. Never seems enough time for me to get on with the far too many I have on the shelf.
- Moderator
- #90
Some of it is simply great literature. Some of my favourites such as The Iliad, A Tale of Two Cities, the historical plays of Shakespeare, The Last of the Mohicans, Ivanhoe, Rob Roy, War and Peace and I Claudius are fantastic reads that for me bring the period they are set in, to life, or make commentary on the human condition or the society of the time. For me Colleen McCollough's 'Masters of Rome' series does that. Similarly Sharon Penman's novels on medieval English royalty are incredibly well researched and the motivations and actions of the various historical characters described, certainly make me consider subsequent readings of non-fiction books on the same subject in a different light.
Alternatively Ken Follett's 'Pillars of the Earth' is simply a rollicking good read.
- Thread starter
- #91
I feel a bit bereft in the literature area and of all that you have mentioned I have only read War and Peace, but I enjoyed it. FWIW I adored Les Miserables when I read it couple of years back. Wonderful!
I got Pillars of the Earth for a pittance at the Lifeline bookfest recently. Everyone I know that has read it kept referring me to it. I had better find time.
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- #92
Try 'Pillars of the Earth', Sharon Kay Penman's 'The Sunne in Splendour' (on Richard III) and Colleen McCollough's 'The First Man In Rome' (on Gaius Marius). Three of my all-time favourites.
Just looking on my many, many, many shelves of history books (about 70% non-fiction and 30% historical fiction), I could make a few other suggestions, including the works mentioned in my earlier post. Given my collection, Arthurian non-fiction and fiction was obviously a particular interest for many years, although I've moved away from that a bit these days.
I see historical fiction as the movie version of history, compared to the non-fiction history books being the documentaries.
You get something from both, you just have to be careful not to start telling people facts about history based of historical fiction.
You get something from both, you just have to be careful not to start telling people facts about history based of historical fiction.
- Thread starter
- #94
A very good read by Frank Dikötter. He covers from the time of the civil war up to the Great Leap Forward. Civil wars are rarely anything but brutal, 2.5 million deaths is a figure bandied by various sources. Dikötter covers this early and not with too much length but once past he delves deeply into the early years of CP rule with initial purging of those not connected with the regime, the beginnings of the Bamboo Curtain, collectivization measures and the attempt to reform thought. Political prisoners, made up of not just those that opposed the CP but those that failed to conform was very interesting reading indeed. For anyone interested in this period of Chinese history this is a must read. In the end I have come out of this book, and also refer back to his brilliant, tragic and griping Mao's Great Famine, wondering if the present day Chinese consider the brutal years of Mao and wonder what they think considering the present prosperity under the CP. I look forward to Dikötter's next book on the Cultural Revolution that I have read is being written.
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Blood Brothers - Simon Scarrow
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- #96
Donyarth or Doniert was the last recorded king of Cornwall. He drowned in 875. Alfred the Great was on the throne of Wessex at the time.
Have read that. Occasionally gets a bit bogged down but I very much enjoyed it. Byzantium seems conveniently forgotten by many as if the fall of Rome was somehow the end of civilisation in Europe.
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- #99
I think it is the trilogy in a single book. medusala may know as I have it packed away and am not digging it out after packing away the last bunch of cheapies purchased at Lifeline bookfest. It is an area that I know little about though. When I get around to the book though goodness only knows.
I have restarted Patrick Leigh Fermors Between the Wood and the Water as I stopped due to getting stuck into Frank Dikötter and am also into a brilliant book by Charles Carlton called This Seat of Mars: War and the British Isles 1485-17. This is the 2nd Carlton book I have read and he is a wonderful historian. Also got a book called The Age of Wonder by Richard Holmes as a gift so started that. Very interesting.
- Thread starter
- #100
I have just finished my 2nd Charles Carlton book. I had the pleasure of reading Going to the wars a few years back and considered it a superb read.
I have just finished This Seat of Mars and it is not far behind Going to The Wars in terms of readability.
I would suggest for the lay person with a passing interest in History and with specific reference to early modern Britain these are essential. They explain the trials and tribulation of the peoples that had the misfortune to be caught up in various conflict. Be they the common man, the aristocrat, the injured and maimed, the prisoners and even the children, Carlton tells their story. How they survived, how they died, how they lived. Brilliant and highly recommended. .
I have just finished This Seat of Mars and it is not far behind Going to The Wars in terms of readability.
I would suggest for the lay person with a passing interest in History and with specific reference to early modern Britain these are essential. They explain the trials and tribulation of the peoples that had the misfortune to be caught up in various conflict. Be they the common man, the aristocrat, the injured and maimed, the prisoners and even the children, Carlton tells their story. How they survived, how they died, how they lived. Brilliant and highly recommended. .
