Opinion The 'Carlton related stuff that doesn't need it's own thread' thread

[vBrad]

This is something I've said numerous times. Had we been able to get buy in from Henderson, Robbo, Waite, been able to rehabilitate Robbo and Garlett, perhaps SOS doesn't have to cut so deep and hard and perhaps we get a few of the free agents along the way.

But then, SOS probably flings them around for value, only keeping a few the same way he did anyway. His thing was hard cutting, and rebuilding using draft capital. It's been a criticism i've had of this build the whole time; did we have to cut so hard, so deeply, and did we have to opt for such poor performance over the duration? Was there no other way?

Letting that little click form... Eddie, Yarran, Gartlett, Robbo, Joseph... Where they had their little "A" finger symbol and we making branded t-shirts etc was the problem.

That group was very unhealthy and needed to be broken up. I feel like there were behind the scenes issues that we never saw from that crew.

 

[Gethelred]

Letting that little click form... Eddie, Yarran, Gartlett, Robbo, Joseph... Where they had their little "A" finger symbol and we making branded t-shirts etc was the problem.

That group was very unhealthy and needed to be broken up. I feel like there were behind the scenes issues that we never saw from that crew.

I don't know, and I don't think we can know. Groups within a playing group can be very unhealthy, but they can also fuel culture within a club. I found it a mite hypocritical that MM wanted to break this one up, but developed and accommodated the rat pack at Collingwood under his watch and won a flag doing it.

I think that's a little unfounded, and based a bit on hindsight. We don't know how things could've gone, only that the issues confronted would still have needed to be dealt with.

 

[vBrad]

I don't know, and I don't think we can know. Groups within a playing group can be very unhealthy, but they can also fuel culture within a club. I found it a mite hypocritical that MM wanted to break this one up, but developed and accommodated the rat pack at Collingwood under his watch and won a flag doing it.

I think that's a little unfounded, and based a bit on hindsight. We don't know how things could've gone, only that the issues confronted would still have needed to be dealt with.

Probably fair. It needed to be dealt with... Breaking it up was only one of a few options.

 

[Elmer_Hauser]

I don't know, and I don't think we can know. Groups within a playing group can be very unhealthy, but they can also fuel culture within a club. I found it a mite hypocritical that MM wanted to break this one up, but developed and accommodated the rat pack at Collingwood under his watch and won a flag doing it.

I think that's a little unfounded, and based a bit on hindsight. We don't know how things could've gone, only that the issues confronted would still have needed to be dealt with.

Wasn't it the recently new chairman Mark Loguidace at the time who decided to cut Robinson and then Garlett loose after another off-field incident at 3 am in the morning ?

Good on Robbo for turning his life and career around at Brisbane, but he had to go, he ran out of chances at Carlton, and became far too negative an influence amongst other players.

As for Waite, depends on what version you want to believe (Mick alwayas said JW lied to his face and claimed he would stay at the club at a dinner at his and wife's house the week he bolted for Norf)

Anyhow what is done is done, the only one that really stung was Eddie leaving in my opinion (Jeffy had a season and a half of good footy at The Dees, then for whatever reason, just seemed to stop caring/going through the motions, like he did in his final season with us)

Not going to sit here and defend Malthouse at all really (he was a great coach who took on our club for spiteful and selfish reasons) but I think the club culture had been awful for a long time for a long time before he got here, a couple of finals appearances under Ratts and a Brownlow for Judd with us probably camoflagued the bad/party boy culture that had been festering at the club for yonks)

If you have enough strong and stable leaders in your playing group, like Geelong had in their flag years or Collingwood did with their rat pack Grand Final teams, your club may be strong enough to weather those turbulent players and their indiscretions, unfortunately the club have Fev far too much leeway over the years before he was punted from the club, and I dare say, the likes of Robbo felt he could push as many boundaries as he could.

It was an ongoing self and team destructive cycle we had, ironically the greatest highlight we had as a club since the 1999 Prelim Final (In my opinion) was under Malthouse (kicking Richmond out of the 2013 finals from 9th place), I still get a huge buzz remembering that game (i was there)

 

[Aphrodite]

 

[MrsEddieBetts]

I just wanna yell BALL at someone

 

[thylacine60]

booger?

 

[MrsEddieBetts]

booger?

Now there's an idea!

 

[agro]

Good on Robbo for turning his life and career around at Brisbane, but he had to go, he ran out of chances at Carlton, and became far too negative an influence amongst It was an ongoing self and team destructive cycle we had, ironically the greatest highlight we had as a club since the 1999 Prelim Final (In my opinion) was under Malthouse (kicking Richmond out of the 2013 finals from 9th place), I still get a huge buzz remembering that game (i was there)

Time for this club to write some better recent history than a Preliminary Final or Elimination Final win (and yes I was there for both of those).

 

[thylacine60]

Yep.

 

[Jabba73]

Too much late night shopping channel?

 

[Robbo's my hero]

Liked because the team is called The Pigeons.

 

[Gethelred]

Wasn't it the recently new chairman Mark Loguidace at the time who decided to cut Robinson and then Garlett loose after another off-field incident at 3 am in the morning ?

Good on Robbo for turning his life and career around at Brisbane, but he had to go, he ran out of chances at Carlton, and became far too negative an influence amongst other players.

As for Waite, depends on what version you want to believe (Mick alwayas said JW lied to his face and claimed he would stay at the club at a dinner at his and wife's house the week he bolted for Norf)

Anyhow what is done is done, the only one that really stung was Eddie leaving in my opinion (Jeffy had a season and a half of good footy at The Dees, then for whatever reason, just seemed to stop caring/going through the motions, like he did in his final season with us)

Not going to sit here and defend Malthouse at all really (he was a great coach who took on our club for spiteful and selfish reasons) but I think the club culture had been awful for a long time for a long time before he got here, a couple of finals appearances under Ratts and a Brownlow for Judd with us probably camoflagued the bad/party boy culture that had been festering at the club for yonks)

If you have enough strong and stable leaders in your playing group, like Geelong had in their flag years or Collingwood did with their rat pack Grand Final teams, your club may be strong enough to weather those turbulent players and their indiscretions, unfortunately the club have Fev far too much leeway over the years before he was punted from the club, and I dare say, the likes of Robbo felt he could push as many boundaries as he could.

It was an ongoing self and team destructive cycle we had, ironically the greatest highlight we had as a club since the 1999 Prelim Final (In my opinion) was under Malthouse (kicking Richmond out of the 2013 finals from 9th place), I still get a huge buzz remembering that game (i was there)

I'm not really sure what your post has to do with mine, Elmer, other than it includes some of the players I was discussing. In any case, what's done is done, and we don't know enough to discuss the internals of the club, not really.

And I maintain that culture at a club can be a drain or a driving force over a playing group, but what decides that is whether the culture is strong or weak rather than if it features partying or drugs or alcohol. The Weagles in 04-06 were not straightlaced, but their partying drove their on field success as much as anything else did; they won so they partied, so they won. Sure, people can look to the Sydney 'no dickheads' policy, but you look to Geelong and Hawthorn - two clubs that featured rather prominent members going hard off the park from time to time, Hawthorn with Luke Hodge actively getting told by his playing group to start drinking again in a humourous anecdote - you see that their culture wasn't exactly straight laced.

A strong culture holds those within it to standards or behaviour, but what I mean by that is driving standards on the field and the training track and re-emphasizing the culture. What standards to behaviour exist for off field situations, provided the players themselves are educated about the stuff drugs and alcohol can do to you, is it really any of our business what they get up to in their private spaces?

 

[Elmer_Hauser]

I'm not really sure what your post has to do with mine, Elmer, other than it includes some of the players I was discussing. In any case, what's done is done, and we don't know enough to discuss the internals of the club, not really.

And I maintain that culture at a club can be a drain or a driving force over a playing group, but what decides that is whether the culture is strong or weak rather than if it features partying or drugs or alcohol. The Weagles in 04-06 were not straightlaced, but their partying drove their on field success as much as anything else did; they won so they partied, so they won. Sure, people can look to the Sydney 'no dickheads' policy, but you look to Geelong and Hawthorn - two clubs that featured rather prominent members going hard off the park from time to time, Hawthorn with Luke Hodge actively getting told by his playing group to start drinking again in a humourous anecdote - you see that their culture wasn't exactly straight laced.

A strong culture holds those within it to standards or behaviour, but what I mean by that is driving standards on the field and the training track and re-emphasizing the culture. What standards to behaviour exist for off field situations, provided the players themselves are educated about the stuff drugs and alcohol can do to you, is it really any of our business what they get up to in their private spaces?

Well when it comes to the case of Brock McLean, around whom this discussion started, it was a massive concern and shock to learn about his mental health battles (including Bulimia) and addiction with some very dangerous and heavy substances, I would feel greatly concerned for any player's welfare if they were suffering through something similar today, which I why I think it is necessary to discuss the playing environment and club culture and hope that no future player goes through or experience what Brock McLean went through.

 

[Gethelred]

Well when it comes to the case of Brock McLean, around whom this discussion started, it was a massive concern and shock to learn about his mental health battles (including Bulimia) and addiction with some very dangerous and heavy substances, I would feel greatly concerned for any player's welfare if they were suffering through something similar today, which I why I think it is necessary to discuss the playing environment and club culture and hope that no future player goes through or experience what Brock McLean went through.

So too is it necessary to allow people like Brock to tell their stories publicly whilst leaving your speculation about other players and their habits at the door. I reiterate: provided that players are educated about what drugs and alcohol can do to you, and assisted through getting clean (if necessary), is it any of our business whatsoever what they get up to in their own time?

 

[La Dispute]

Henderson could have been a great player, but choose the easy path (twice), and has very little to show for it.

I still remember him being mentally worked over by Brent Staker in a game against Brisbane, when they were absolutely shocking. He just never had killer instinct, didn't like leading if it meant he'd end up getting a knock, and in so many games he was anonymous for whole halves of footy.

I was far more annoyed when we got rid of Robinson, who actually loved the club, would do anything for his teammates and was one of the few capable of doing team-lifting things when it counted. Malthouse delisting him (and then bringing in borderline NEAFL standard players like Whiley and Matt Dick) was completely erroneous, and started the decline into not really having any real identity as a team.

Yeh being mid-ranged and packed to rafters with downhill skiers is not sustainable, but it sure as hell beats being perpetually mediocre.

 

[Gethelred]

Henderson could have been a great player, but choose the easy path (twice), and has very little to show for it.

I still remember him being mentally worked over by Brent Staker in a game against Brisbane, when they were absolutely shocking. He just never had killer instinct, didn't like leading if it meant he'd end up getting a knock, and in so many games he was anonymous for whole halves of footy.

I was far more annoyed when we got rid of Robinson, who actually loved the club, would do anything for his teammates and was one of the few capable of doing team-lifting things when it counted. Malthouse delisting him (and then bringing in borderline NEAFL standard players like Whiley and Matt Dick) was completely erroneous, and started the decline into not really having any real identity as a team.

Yeh being mid-ranged and packed to rafters with downhill skiers is not sustainable, but it sure as hell beats being perpetually mediocre.

I didn't mind Hendo behind the ball, and I never got why we insisted on playing him up forward. You're not wrong that he hated getting on the lead, instead for whatever reason wrestling with his man despite being terrible at it. Robbo would've been hugely useful for us to keep during the build, I agree.

 

[thylacine60]

you all recall Y2K? well we're looking at an even worse situation when this thread gets to page 404.........internet meltdown.........you've been warned

 

[Elmer_Hauser]

So too is it necessary to allow people like Brock to tell their stories publicly whilst leaving your speculation about other players and their habits at the door. I reiterate: provided that players are educated about what drugs and alcohol can do to you, and assisted through getting clean (if necessary), is it any of our business whatsoever what they get up to in their own time?

Most of what I have posted about Waite and Robinson was already common knowledge/out in the public domain, Mitch Robinson (like Fevola before him) has no one to blame but himself for being booted from Carlton, if he undisclosed mental health or issues I wasn't aware of, then naturally I sympathize, but clearly the club made the right call (least for him) letting him go, The Loiguidace board (which unfortunately had to pay out a wrongly appointed coach) has made it a mandate to stamp out players who were notorious trouble makers and bad influences on the playing group, and quite frankly Mitch Robinson, Waite and the ilk were part of it.

With all due respect, I am not sure if you realized how much of a nuiscance and liability Robbo had become at the club when he got the flick.
And yes, it was arguably the club's fault for probablh not educating or disciplining Robbo enough at the time for issues like alcohol and breaking curfew etc

 

[Robbo's my hero]

you all recall Y2K? well we're looking at an even worse situation when this thread gets to page 404.........internet meltdown.........you've been warned

I’m prepared to join you and commence a consultancy and charge loads of money to prevent this imminent catastrophe.

 

[thylacine60]

no-one wants to wander for eternity in a '404 page not found' dystopia..........

 

[Gethelred]

Most of what I have posted about Waite and Robinson was already common knowledge/out in the public domain, Mitch Robinson (like Fevola before him) has no one to blame but himself for being booted from Carlton, if he undisclosed mental health or issues I wasn't aware of, then naturally I sympathize, but clearly the club made the right call (least for him) letting him go, The Loiguidace board (which unfortunately had to pay out a wrongly appointed coach) has made it a mandate to stamp out players who were notorious trouble makers and bad influences on the playing group, and quite frankly Mitch Robinson, Waite and the ilk were part of it.

With all due respect, I am not sure if you realized how much of a nuiscance and liability Robbo had become at the club when he got the flick.
And yes, it was arguably the club's fault for probablh not educating or disciplining Robbo enough at the time for issues like alcohol and breaking curfew etc

Most of what you've posted about Robinson and Waite is something that will be true for an incredible amount of AFL players, Elmer. These are young men recruited into extremely well paying jobs from the age of 18, who spend their time in hypermasculine environments in which their behaviour is dictated so deeply that their eating habits are scrutinized and their job performance is analysed on TV and radio. So, well paid players who cannot drink (it's bad for their weight) without outlet; it is small wonder if players turn to drugs, and not cigarettes or weed but harder stuff. The cash barrier isn't there for them the same way it is the rest of society, and it has a duration that fades in time for the next game.

Most of what you've posted about Robinson and Waite is a societal issue compounded by football rather than a feature of football, and as a consequence players who manage to be outed as addicts suffer notoriety regardless of whether or not it's true. The difference between you and Mitch Robinson (or Chris Yarran) is that were your drug addiction revealed publicly, while you would be shamed by it there's a good chance no-one beyond your immediate sphere will spread the information whether or not it is true. These players do not have the same luxury; their names are featured in lights.

So, with all due respect, I do not think you realise the extent to which gossip based on spurious facts can ruin lives. I rather think you should ruminate on this, and think a little more deeply about implying things are 'in the public domain' when they were implied by the vultures in the media rather than proven, and I rather think you should find the means to realise how your attitude towards drug addiction and privacy is severely twisted.

 

[Aphrodite]

It's 2020 FFS!

 

[Elmer_Hauser]

I am not a fan of AFL Based Video games generally (cause all of the ones I have played before have been naff with daft controls) but feel the desire to buy this for my PS4

Would more than likely gather dust being displayed in my man cave aka gaming room (Got a lot of PS4 games to get through atm) but the cover just looks so well, quite frankly sexy.

Would seem a bit self-indulgent if not downright ostentatious if I bought a video game priced at $79.95 simply because of the artwork on the cover though

 

[thylacine60]

I bought Carly Simons' "No Secrets" for the same reason............hey, it was a crazy time............hey, I was 12..........hey, the music.......