Politics The "Gig Economy" is bullshit

[Nuggs Bunny]

The gig economy is a bullshit excuse for big businesses to operate without having to adhere to any labour laws. It is not about providing convenience to the end consumer or creating jobs, this is just a facade to make the bullshit more palatable. It employs user-friendly and attractive software to encourage people to whore themselves out for far less than they should be worth by pitting some of the most vulnerable in society against each other. It delivers services cheaper, predominantly for the middle class who has money to burn, by encouraging workers to sacrifice their superannuation and legal protections. It "disrupts" the market by running other businesses, who actually comply with the law, into the ground as they can't compete with illegal activity.

Like, for all the outcry over the cuts to penalty rates and the impact that it has on the working poor, this is merely a pin-prick to the ass of workplace relations while the steady growth of sham labour contracts into industries dominated by entry level positions will prove to be a sledgehammer to the face. Allowing multi-million dollar businesses to get away with paying people less than the minimum wage through sham contracts is a farce that should have been picked up on ages ago, not allowed to occur because it was trendy.

Or take Airbnb, how would you feel if you bought a house only for some tool to buy one next to you and rent it out to a pack of ferals every weekend? Like, imagine having every friday and saturday night ruined by an arsehole bucks party who would scream into the early hours of the morning and piss and s**t in the street? A licenced hotel couldn't get away with allowing their guests to behave like that, let alone being permitted to actually set up shop in the first place without a thorough evaluation of whether a quiet street really deserves a hotel. But hey, in the gig economy, laws are made to be disrupted.

Why do so few people care about the steady rise of the Ubers, Airtaskers and Airbnbs in Australia? Why do people actually not give a s**t when certain companies flout the law? Please enlighten me.

 

[CheapCharlie]

I feel for those bicycle food delivery people.
No wage
No accident insurance
No guaranteed income or shift
Playing with your safety to deliver a curry on time..
Now being responsible financially for late deliveries

Imagine a government employee putting up with any of these conditions?

 

[Nuggs Bunny]

I feel for those bicycle food delivery people.
No wage
No accident insurance
No guaranteed income or shift
Playing with your safety to deliver a curry on time..
Now being responsible financially for late deliveries

Imagine a government employee putting up with any of these conditions?

They wouldn't, no employee would.

Problem is, the very people who wouldn't put up with those conditions are also happy to buy from a company that they know forces people to work in these conditions.

 

[bfff]

Why do so few people care about the steady rise of the Ubers, Airtaskers and Airbnbs in Australia? Why do people actually not give a s**t when certain companies flout the law? Please enlighten me.

Probably because they don’t have any contact with people who work in the “gig economy” or the owners of the businesses that these services are competing with.

In terms of general flouting of the law by companies you only need to look at the banking royal commission to see that people are not engaged enough to identify and deal with the trickery that they use. There is an implicit trust in them. I don’t know if it’s generational or an Australian thing but there is a general naivety about how companies are willing to behave in order to make money.

 

[Fire]

This is a very good OP and its going to be interesting seeing where things develop.

I remember 'inventing uber' in my mind around 2005; I needed to get to the airport and while I waited for a taxi I lamented that it the trip itself was going to cost a huge chunk of my then student wages. There was a busy street full of cars, and I was thinking to myself that any one of them could be heading to the airport and could just give me a lift for $10. I didn't need a taxi, I just needed that exchange of information.

That's not quite how it has all evolved (yet), but it is in essence what the gig economy is. The only real service needed is the exchanging of information. Need a place to stay in Frankston Friday night? Ill have a free room then cause I'm heading down to Bonnie Doon, just chuck us $75 and you can crash.

In many ways this is kind of good; its certainly a way to make use of otherwise unused resources. Why put a second car on the freeway to the airport when there's an uber pool seat on a car already going there? Why build another hotel in Frankston when there's 200 rooms free in domiciles?

But there are costs, as the OP points out. The reality though is its inevitable; there will be more information avaliable online going forward, and privacy will continue to be traded for convenience. These are things that just cannot be stopped.

I'm sure we can put in regulations to protect us from the worst of it all, but it's inevitable that this sort of an economy will continue to grow and eventually take over. Entire industry sectors will probably fall by the wayside (real estate agents, I'm looking at you), but our economy would not compete globally if we still had fat collectors and ice delivery men riding through our neighbourhoods. We just have to try and make sure whatever is coming works for all classes as best it can.

 

[Seeds]

The gig economy is a bullshit excuse for big businesses to operate without having to adhere to any labour laws. It is not about providing convenience to the end consumer or creating jobs, this is just a facade to make the bullshit more palatable. It employs user-friendly and attractive software to encourage people to whore themselves out for far less than they should be worth by pitting some of the most vulnerable in society against each other. It delivers services cheaper, predominantly for the middle class who has money to burn, by encouraging workers to sacrifice their superannuation and legal protections. It "disrupts" the market by running other businesses, who actually comply with the law, into the ground as they can't compete with illegal activity.

Like, for all the outcry over the cuts to penalty rates and the impact that it has on the working poor, this is merely a pin-prick to the ass of workplace relations while the steady growth of sham labour contracts into industries dominated by entry level positions will prove to be a sledgehammer to the face. Allowing multi-million dollar businesses to get away with paying people less than the minimum wage through sham contracts is a farce that should have been picked up on ages ago, not allowed to occur because it was trendy.

Or take Airbnb, how would you feel if you bought a house only for some tool to buy one next to you and rent it out to a pack of ferals every weekend? Like, imagine having every friday and saturday night ruined by an arsehole bucks party who would scream into the early hours of the morning and piss and s**t in the street? A licenced hotel couldn't get away with allowing their guests to behave like that, let alone being permitted to actually set up shop in the first place without a thorough evaluation of whether a quiet street really deserves a hotel. But hey, in the gig economy, laws are made to be disrupted.

Why do so few people care about the steady rise of the Ubers, Airtaskers and Airbnbs in Australia? Why do people actually not give a s**t when certain companies flout the law? Please enlighten me.

What does this mean? “pitting some of the most vulnerable in society against each other”. How is this any different to the laws of supply and demand operating at all levels of employment?

As for why people care? Because people are consumers and they prefer better products. Airbnb provides something hotels cant. Uber is vastly superior to the monopoly taxi industry that refuse to adopt new technology and fix its vast flaws like incentivising drivers to go slow and avoid toll roads. It’s creative destruction and it’s what makes the world prosper. I do agree with some of the lax labour law issues although the fact people want to work with Uber suggests these laws were far too strong in the favour of labour in the first place. A happy medium needs to be found.

 

[Seeds]

They wouldn't, no employee would.

Problem is, the very people who wouldn't put up with those conditions are also happy to buy from a company that they know forces people to work in these conditions.

If no employee would then why are people working for them. There is a massive inconsistency in your post.

 

[EasternTiger]

We live in what I like to call a convenience economy. Lost manufacturing sector jobs have been replaced by lawn mowing, cleaning, car detailing, and food delivery.

40 years ago you cleaned your own car, mowed your own lawn, and got the missus to iron your shirts.

 

[Seeds]

We live in what I like to call a convenience economy. Lost manufacturing sector jobs have been replaced by lawn mowing, cleaning, car detailing, and food delivery.

40 years ago you cleaned your own car, mowed your own lawn, and got the missus to iron your shirts.

And 40 Year’s ago everyone had little leisure time cos they spent their whole weekends doing chores. Now they have free time to do sh** they want to do. Which world do you want to live in?

19th century conservatives would be cheering at the end of boring dehumanising manufacturing jobs which they detested. They would love the fact they are now gone.

 

[EasternTiger]

And 40 Year’s ago everyone had little leisure time cos they spent their whole weekends doing chores. Now they have free time to do sh** they want to do. Which world do you want to live in?

Exactly.

 

[Reynolds Number]

The issues of workers pay and other conditions with Uber/Airtasker/Deliveroo is a concern.

But so is the problems with taxi companies and hotel/hotel chain owners who are billionaires way too tightarsed to invest in capital and HR to make their products attractive for the high prices they charge and many people are too smart to their game with the arrival of AirBnB and ride sharing.

We have overpaid tradies/handymen/tech gurus etc. charging ridiculous rates for their services so Airtasker fills an important void for the many struggling families and individuals that need a 'tradies/handyman' task done at a price they can afford.

Things evolve over time to address the majority's concerns I guess.

 

[Bombermania]

Probably because they don’t have any contact with people who work in the “gig economy” or the owners of the businesses that these services are competing with.

In terms of general flouting of the law by companies you only need to look at the banking royal commission to see that people are not engaged enough to identify and deal with the trickery that they use. There is an implicit trust in them. I don’t know if it’s generational or an Australian thing but there is a general naivety about how companies are willing to behave in order to make money.

Nailed it, the people using these services see it as a time saving service and little different from anyother home delivery service, home delivery has always been low pay and most people wouldn't expect the Ubers of the world to be any different as they have no other involvement in the order.

 

[Bombermania]

We live in what I like to call a convenience economy. Lost manufacturing sector jobs have been replaced by lawn mowing, cleaning, car detailing, and food delivery.

40 years ago you cleaned your own car, mowed your own lawn, and got the missus to iron your shirts.

Manufacturing sector is doing quite well, the thing that has gone is the mass production plants and the low skilled manual roles which are not missed by most people. The real problem with today's labour market is the lack of pathways from study or unemployment to employment.

 

[DaRick]

I tend to agree that the middle class being squeezed in the Anglosphere will make the appeal of the gig economy more alluring at least over the medium term, as struggling families will be compelled to hire taxi drivers, tradesmen, gardeners etc. at cut-price rates, or for less than the true cost in the case of tradesmen.

However, I'm not sure that even this arrangement will be completely sustainable in the long run. It is very possible that most people will be financially stretched in the future to the point where even the cut-price rates offered within the 'gig economy' will not be worth taking up. Instead, a situation may well develop where people simply perform these tasks themselves, or have family/friends do it, or have people help out around the house in exchange for free food/board (not unlike what happened during the Depression era in the United States).

Also, tradesmen can afford to perform tasks for lower than the true cost because they are being paid under the table a lot of the time, plus they already have the tools and knowledge to readily perform such jobs. This may not be the case in the future - Australia hardly trains apprentices nowadays so tradesmen with the appropriate tools and knowledge may be harder to come by in the future.

The flaws of the 'gig economy' from a worker's perspective have been collated already, and I broadly agree with the consensus on this thread regarding that matter.

 

[Herne Hill Hammer]

The issues of workers pay and other conditions with Uber/Airtasker/Deliveroo is a concern.

But so is the problems with taxi companies and hotel/hotel chain owners who are billionaires way too tightarsed to invest in capital and HR to make their products attractive for the high prices they charge and many people are too smart to their game with the arrival of AirBnB and ride sharing.

We have overpaid tradies/handymen/tech gurus etc. charging ridiculous rates for their services so Airtasker fills an important void for the many struggling families and individuals that need a 'tradies/handyman' task done at a price they can afford.

Things evolve over time to address the majority's concerns I guess.

..and people are living in their cars because properties which were once long term rentals are now Airbnb, leaving a shortage in some areas of rentals.

 

[Fire]

..and people are living in their cars because properties which were once long term rentals are now Airbnb, leaving a shortage in some areas of rentals.

Except this isn't happening.

 

[Herne Hill Hammer]

Except this isn't happening.

Yeah it is. You think I just make random s**t up and post it?

 

[Fire]

Yeah it is. You think I just make random s**t up and post it?

I dont know. You might have heard it from someone else who was making it up.

Someone somewhere made it up tho.

 

[Thegibbsgamble]

Yeah it is. You think I just make random s**t up and post it?

Well.

Go get the figures of homelessness pre airbnb to after airbnb.

That will settle the argument

 

[QuietB]

I always found the introduction of Uber in Australia fascinating.

1. Uber could have approached government and established their business through traditional channels having regulations and laws amended and revised as required, yada yada yada; or
2. Uber could just operate how ever the hell they want and worry about the legality of what they were doing later.

Obviously they went with option 2. But this has exposed two massive problems in the system;

1. It highlights that it is practically impossible to implement something like Uber if you were forced to negotiate all of the regulatory obstacles.
2. It also highlight government are going to do sweet **** all to stop you even if you do completely ignore them.

 

[Bombermania]

I always found the introduction of Uber in Australia fascinating.

1. Uber could have approached government and established their business through traditional channels having regulations and laws amended and revised as required, yada yada yada; or
2. Uber could just operate how ever the hell they want and worry about the legality of what they were doing later.

Obviously they went with option 2. But this has exposed two massive problems in the system;

1. It highlights that it is practically impossible to implement something like Uber if you were forced to negotiate all of the regulatory obstacles.
2. It also highlight government are going to do sweet **** all to stop you even if you do completely ignore them.

Option two is not an uncommon view for so called new techie industries as they seem to believe that new technologies are beyond the reach of government, we saw it with Bitcoin, last year its fans were going around saying the government could not touch it, they are not saying that now. I think part of the cause for this attitude is that many of these concepts come from the U.S and are often driven by people from places where government regulators are less visible.

 

[Herne Hill Hammer]

Well.

Go get the figures of homelessness pre airbnb to after airbnb.

That will settle the argument

What figures? I clearly said in my original post, 'some areas'.

When I say some areas, I'm not referring to the cities.

I live on Phillip Island, a holiday hot spot. I live in a rental, we moved here in mid December last year. My wife is originally from here, her family has lived on the island for 3 or 4 generations, and in surrounding seaside towns for longer, they were a fishing family. She still has a lot of family here, that's why we moved here. I work fifo, so she has support for when I'm not home.

There are currently 28, 3 bedroom homes on the island for rent and 3 just off the island in San Remo. I researched for about 6 months before we moved back here from WA, that number of 28 was generally in the 15 to 20 range when I was looking. Maybe it's because it's the middle of winter that there are a few more than usual up for rent atm.

Knowing how hard it is to get a rental here, I actually signed my lease 3 months prior to us moving here. $5,000 in rent without spending a single night in the place, fortunately I was in a position to be able to afford to do it, not many can, especially down here.

Once we had moved in, I joined as man of the Phillip Island, Facebook pages that I could find. Families were constantly posting on there that they were desperate for rental properties. Families that had lived on the island for a number of years that all of a sudden found themselves with nowhere to live when the landlord decides to sell the property or changes it to Airbnb once the lease is up.

There were at least 2 families per week posting, searching for housing, this went on until around May. There were families with either one or both parents working who in the end actually had to chuck their jobs in and leave because they had nowhere to live. Long time locals posting on these pages almost to a person all commented that since Airbnb came onto the scene, available long term rental numbers had dropped dramatically.

So it's only anecdotal, but I'm living in the market down here.

Common sense, that isn't always that common anymore, would tell me that if it's happening here then there are going to be a lot of other locations across the country where it is happening, in particular, popular holiday spots.

It's probably a bit like the height of the mining boom in places like the Pilbara when locals couldn't afford to live in their own towns anymore, even caravan parks, where teachers were paying $1,500 per week for a bedroom and shared kitchen / living areas in a shared house.

Like most things, it might settle down and find where it's balance is, but I'll be watching, particularly this holiday period to see what if anything has changed.

 

[kickazz]

Good OP and there is more to this than meets the eye. An interesting discussion for sure.

A lot of these businesses are not all that clever, they just avoid regulation, and that saves you money.

Of course Airbnb is cheaper than a hotel. But hotels have to, you know, adhere to things like planning rules, mandatory building safety inspection, fire safety, noise impact assessment and all that s**t. Yes this costs money, some beuracrat somewhere needs to approve it. But in the end, the system works. Maybe it could be more efficient, but all those good things we get, and take for granted.

Airbnb, and all these other asset based peer to peer businesses simply ignore all of that. If anything goes wrong, it will be "someone else's problem".

Uber needed to happen because taxi licences were such a rort. But Uber avoids all regulation, doesn't pay super, isn't forced to take less profitable fares from elderly disabled pensioners, can treat employees like s**t, isn't that much cheaper anymore, and is losing billions of dollars a year! I mean WTF!

Their strategy, losing so much money, is clearly one of trying to dominate and create a monopoly or oligopoly. Losing obscene amounts of money just so you can crush all opposition is illegal in Australia.

Uber eats and all of those are just extortionists taking way too big a slice of the pie. Perhaps the market will sort this out. No, a restaurant is not forced to use them, but if they get enough market power shall businesses may have little choice.

Look, it is value add, no doubt. But I just don't think they add as much value as they charge. I think there is a gap in the market here. Surely it can be done cheaper.

But yeah, the gig economy is s**t. Maybe it's good if you have money. If you are trying to make some, it's s**t. Trade unions are investing quite a bit in researching this, as they should.

 

[kickazz]

There has been some study (will have to try and find it) around a certain type of person who works in tech, who just loves tech for the sake of tech, without really caring for the ethics of what they do, nor the real human impact, (be that ignoring the negative impact caused by disruption, or over valuing the positive impact by not understanding the real human benefit, just being obsessed with the technology).

I like technology, studied it and worked with it. But over the yearsy I've noticed that the stereotype is somewhat true: a lot of those nerds really had no people skills, probably didn't care too much for them. Just want to play with gadgets.

 

[kickazz]

You know how you use webjet to find the best flights and then buy the actual tickets via the airline's site, in order to avoid the fees?

Do the same with uber eats or menulog. Use them to find what you want, then order directly from the restaurant. It's not that much harder and the place making nice food for you just might stay in business.