Vic The joke that is the Victorian Liberal Party.

[The Punter]

So for all the infrastructure we are building the interest payments are 33 cents per person a day…. Seems too good to be true.

It is. I made a mistake. By 2029, the interest payments will be only $1m... per hour. So 12 times what I originally said.

So $4 per person per day. For every person.

The person still catching a V/Line train from Caroline Springs and standing on a train not built to be stood on whilst moving, while Box Hill residents get a second metro train method to get to Cheltenham.

The person stuck on the West Gate Freeway because the tunnel still doesn't separate the Ballarat-generated traffic from the Geelong-generated traffic.

Or the pensioner who can't afford $4 per day but the land tax bill on the unit she rents is passed on by the property owner.

It could be less with the same amount of infrastructure built. It could be different, more needed infrastructure.

 

[The Punter]

Have you read about the investigations of Shorten and Gillard at the AWU?

I'm not saying the CFMEU is better. I'm just pointing out that when people say the problem is that the AWU was sidelined for the CFMEU and that's the bulk of the problem, it's clearly not the bulk of the problem. Conservatives think all Unions shouldn't exist, but the moment they take on any capitalist bent (like maximising profit for their members) the Conservatives are up-in-arms.

Again, being misrepresented. Didn't say it was the bulk of the problem. I said it was the uniquely Andrews Labor Government problem.

They made a choice. We have the consequences.

 

[Pakenhamsaint]

Isn't their a skill shortage issue on them doing both at the same time? I understand the money thing isn't an issue, the government can just borrow more to do both at the same time.

If there is a priority list, and if one thing should be done before another, there is no argument that the SRL should come before significant primary expansion of public transport to poorly serviced areas in the west.

Not as much now with things like the tunnel's and crossing removals slowing down and reaching thier conclusion.

The west has the exact same issues as every other growth area. Grew too fast and to much of a patchwork and car centric planning.

In an ideal world Melton would have been electrified 30 years ago.

 

[The Punter]

In an ideal world Melton would have been electrified 30 years ago.

Or at any point during that 30 years.

 

[Saint]

The number of engineers on these big build jobs is obscene.

There are the consulting engineers doing the actual design.

There are the construction engineers monitoring the construction - and the construction companies don’t have a whole lot of motivation to make this particularly efficient - contracts are cost plus after all. The more engineers the more the cost - the more the cost the higher the margin.

Then there are a whole bunch of government engineers adding SFA to the process - mostly just slow everything down and make it more inefficient. Again - the more the cost the higher the margin.

The high costs are not necessarily a CFMEU problem. The entire delivery model is inefficient - or at least does not reward efficiency by its nature. Engineers are just one example.

Which is weird because I always thought the private sector did things more efficiently

Just to add a little salt to the wound, majority of the construction companies eligible for big build are foreign owned

All the consulting companies are foreign-owned too.

The Government Engineers review the work of the consultants, who also have their own oversight and review, as professional engineers.

I agree it might be better done in-house like it used to be, but then you'd have Punter complaining that it's a Public Sector economy.

 

[The Punter]

All the consulting companies are foreign-owned too.

The Government Engineers review the work of the consultants, who also have their own oversight and review, as professional engineers.

I agree it might be better done in-house like it used to be, but then you'd have Punter complaining that it's a Public Sector economy.

It's all public sector economy if it is public works, no matter who carries out the work.

We need more private sector economy growth. It's how taxes are generated.

 

[nut]

It is. I made a mistake. By 2029, the interest payments will be only $1m... per hour. So 12 times what I originally said.

So $4 per person per day. For every person.

The person still catching a V/Line train from Caroline Springs and standing on a train not built to be stood on whilst moving, while Box Hill residents get a second metro train method to get to Cheltenham.

The person stuck on the West Gate Freeway because the tunnel still doesn't separate the Ballarat-generated traffic from the Geelong-generated traffic.

Or the pensioner who can't afford $4 per day but the land tax bill on the unit she rents is passed on by the property owner.

It could be less with the same amount of infrastructure built. It could be different, more needed infrastructure.

Yer I wish my taxes didn’t pay for anything I didn’t need too….
I don’t need the children’s hospital so why should I have to contribute????

 

[The Punter]

Yer I wish my taxes didn’t pay for anything I didn’t need too….
I don’t need the children’s hospital so why should I have to contribute????

I would have no issue with the SRL if it was the thing that should have been built first: quadrification and electrification to Melton.

My issue is not choices have been made and investments have been made. My issue is that choices have been poor and needlessly, avoidably costly.

But you keep strawmanning...

 

[Pakenhamsaint]

Or at any point during that 30 years.

Either way it would be finishing work that was started in the 70s.

Thry had two options. Duplication and electrification at the same time or duplicate first and electrify later.

They went the latter option

 

[Saint]

I would have no issue with the SRL if it was the thing that should have been built first: quadrification and electrification to Melton.

My issue is not choices have been made and investments have been made. My issue is that choices have been poor and needlessly, avoidably costly.

But you keep strawmanning...

But, going by the Liberals record, nothing would have been built. Not just the wrong thing.

Napthine would still be in there counting pennies and slowly expanding the road network while the city bursts at the seams. Or we'd have dozens of toll roads.

But that attitude could never have delivered Metro or anything on that scale.

 

[Sttew]

So for all the infrastructure we are building the interest payments are 33 cents per person a day…. Seems too good to be true.

You're right its seems too good to be true because it isn't because it only tells a fraction of the real story. What core government services have been axed or severely cut because of the interest burden? And what cost is all this having on the state economy?

You can try and paint a rosy picture but Victoria is ****ed. 9 out of every 10 jobs created in the state while Allan has been premier are in the public service or government agencies. The government promised 18 months ago it would reduce the Public Service. Instead it has grown. This is unsustainable

The Victorian government now imposes 33 different taxes, levies and duties. We are the highest taxed state in the country.

But all you care about is that each Victorian is effectively paying $0.33/day on the interest bill of the government? Time to pop the champagne corks!

No wonder Gigi Foster calls Victoria the canary in Australia’s debt coalmine

Victoria’s debt crisis and its impact on the state economy

Victoria is facing net debt of nearly $187 billion and a credit rating downgrade. What are the economic and governance consequences for the state?

www.businessthink.unsw.edu.au

Victoria's 33 Taxes, Levies and Duties - Hayton Kosky

Based on research from the State Revenue Office, Department of Treasury and Finance, and other government sources, here is the complete list of 33 taxes, levies, and duties in Victoria, categorised by type: Property Taxes and Duties Land tax Vacant residential land tax Land transfer (stamp) duty...

haytonkosky.com.au

 

[The Punter]

But, going by the Liberals record, nothing would have been built. Not just the wrong thing.

Napthine would still be in there counting pennies and slowly expanding the road network while the city bursts at the seams. Or we'd have dozens of toll roads.

But that attitude could never have delivered Metro or anything on that scale.

Napthine had a budgeted Melbourne Metro, but for some reason I never fully understood, they believed that the part from Domain to Melbourne Uni, which is the main reason to build it as it is the largest need in the system, couldn't be done without doing it a long, long way underground or Swanston St cut and cover. As soon as Andrews was elected that problem went away, and I can offer no explanation for that. But there was a fully funded Melbourne Metro which went from Domain to Arden through Fisherman's Bend and also included Airport rail.

Toll roads are a bipartisan project in this state.

So I would suggest things including public transport would have been built but not at the same rate.

And my criticism is not of the rate but of the priorities and of the choices that have needlessly added to the costs.

 

[nut]

You're right its seems too good to be true because it isn't because it only tells a fraction of the real story. What core government services have been axed or severely cut because of the interest burden? And what cost is all this having on the state economy?

You can try and paint a rosy picture but Victoria is ****ed. 9 out of every 10 jobs created in the state while Allan has been premier are in the public service or government agencies. The government promised 18 months ago it would reduce the Public Service. Instead it has grown. This is unsustainable

The Victorian government now imposes 33 different taxes, levies and duties. We are the highest taxed state in the country.

But all you care about is that each Victorian is effectively paying $0.33/day on the interest bill of the government? Time to pop the champagne corks!

No wonder Gigi Foster calls Victoria the canary in Australia’s debt coalmine

Victoria’s debt crisis and its impact on the state economy

Victoria is facing net debt of nearly $187 billion and a credit rating downgrade. What are the economic and governance consequences for the state?

www.businessthink.unsw.edu.au

Victoria's 33 Taxes, Levies and Duties - Hayton Kosky

Based on research from the State Revenue Office, Department of Treasury and Finance, and other government sources, here is the complete list of 33 taxes, levies, and duties in Victoria, categorised by type: Property Taxes and Duties Land tax Vacant residential land tax Land transfer (stamp) duty...

haytonkosky.com.au

Good we need more taxes….
Land taxes are working and making housing more affordable.

 

[Stan_Darsh72]

Because they tax corporations and tax the resource sector.

If only this nation had a mining boom and taxed companies accordingly and also exports a lot of gas and taxed said companies accordingly.

Libs and nats under war criminal rat howard have this nations past present and futures blood on their hands.

The future proofing that should have been done in the 90s is a crying shame because one of this nation's chance of greatness was pissed away by libs and nats for greed.

 

[Bont2Bruce]

The number of engineers on these big build jobs is obscene.

There are the consulting engineers doing the actual design.

There are the construction engineers monitoring the construction - and the construction companies don’t have a whole lot of motivation to make this particularly efficient - contracts are cost plus after all. The more engineers the more the cost - the more the cost the higher the margin.

Then there are a whole bunch of government engineers adding SFA to the process - mostly just slow everything down and make it more inefficient. Again - the more the cost the higher the margin.

The high costs are not necessarily a CFMEU problem. The entire delivery model is inefficient - or at least does not reward efficiency by its nature. Engineers are just one example.

Which is weird because I always thought the private sector did things more efficiently

Just to add a little salt to the wound, majority of the construction companies eligible for big build are foreign owned

You forgot the environmental engineers but I take your point

 

[Stan_Darsh72]

Or at any point during that 30 years.

We had a mining boom, why was said boom not spent on basic infrastructure Australia wide?

Basic future planning that obvious for any sane government. But no we had libs and nats who went **** the future. The future is now,.shit must get built

 

[The Punter]

We had a mining boom, why was said boom not spent on basic infrastructure Australia wide?

Basic future planning that obvious for any sane government. But no we had libs and nats who went **** the future. The future is now,.shit must get built

It was obviously a consequential four years in Victoria.

 

[Bont2Bruce]

We had a mining boom, why was said boom not spent on basic infrastructure Australia wide?

Basic future planning that obvious for any sane government. But no we had libs and nats who went **** the future. The future is now,.shit must get built

The attempted mining tax was already late for the boom, but still got scuttled. But this is federal politics, not state politics.

 

[Stan_Darsh72]

It was obviously a consequential four years in Victoria.

I said Australia wide.

Not just Victoria, this nation's infrastructure and right now present is suffering because your mob decided to party with our resources and our money not invest at all in our nation.

Party is over though, dont bother helping with the cleaning or payment of the bill, millenials will fix Australia.

 

[Stan_Darsh72]

The attempted mining tax was already late for the boom, but still got scuttled. But this is federal politics, not state politics.

But federal affects states, level crossings removals should have been done in the 90s with miming boom money.

Its basic planning and pt investment is always a w