Autopsy The MFC List - Breaking down what's needed

[lose]

Shannon Byrnes must come to Melbourne.

be very happy to get Byrnes.. Sydney have shown this is the way to recruit, by taking players from the best clubs who are good enough to play but have been faced with a lot of competition (eg. Mumford & Kennedy).. he wouldn't cost us much and must be desperate for opportunities..
also how about a player like Daniel Connors? is a needs player for us, can really play.. great user across half back and could be a great replacement for the role they continue to try and play Joel McDonald in, except hes 100 times better.. seems out of favour at Richmond and think he's a player who would do really well with a change.. I no he's had his problems but he can seriously play

 

[LeverPuller]

be very happy to get Byrnes.. Sydney have shown this is the way to recruit, by taking players from the best clubs who are good enough to play but have been faced with a lot of competition (eg. Mumford & Kennedy).. he wouldn't cost us much and must be desperate for opportunities..
also how about a player like Daniel Connors? is a needs player for us, can really play.. great user across half back and could be a great replacement for the role they continue to try and play Joel McDonald in, except hes 100 times better.. seems out of favour at Richmond and think he's a player who would do really well with a change.. I no he's had his problems but he can seriously play

I don't know that Melbourne have the support structure to prevent Connors going off the rails, see Sylvia and Beamer

 

[HarveyWallbanger]

My biggest issue is the salary cap collar. We are paying duds waaayyyy too much and sending the club financially backwards. Given all that Jimmy did, I don't want handouts from the AFL.

Let us pay what these peanuts are worth. Magner classic case. We would be paying him base but he is more than double the player (read: heart) than most of our list.

 

[Dory_77]

My biggest issue is the salary cap collar. We are paying duds waaayyyy too much and sending the club financially backwards. Given all that Jimmy did, I don't want handouts from the AFL.

Let us pay what these peanuts are worth. Magner classic case. We would be paying him base but he is more than double the player (read: heart) than most of our list.

Come season end I think we'll find a comfortable bit of cap space. Guys such as Joel Mac, Dunn, Spencer, Jetta, Bennell, et al could be cut. Green might also get the chop if he can't make it back into the seniors (I doubt we would get rid of him, but it's early days yet) that would give us some decent coin to shop around, plus provide incentives for our decent players to stick around (Magner, Howe).

 

[rhaz]

Considering how much cap room we had to recruit Clark, and how much money is going to Aaron Davey, i dont really see how there could be that many others going around that are being well overpaid.

 

[lose]

I don't know that Melbourne have the support structure to prevent Connors going off the rails, see Sylvia and Beamer

well they are trying to change the culture.. there's no reason y he couldn't get turned around, I'd rather get a player wit talent that can play footy nd we have to do some work wit than a well behaved bloke who is gash..

he'd have to be easier to look after than LJ

 

[LeverPuller]

The salary cap isn't a problem. IIRC we're frontloading most of Clark's contract anyway in order to make 92.5%. Couple that with Davey being vet's list eligible in 2013 (IIRC) and there's a buttload of room to grab players.

 

[El Sketcho]

. Finally, get a 6'4, 100 kilo athlete with good hands who can jump

There's one of those blokes on the list at Casey. Luke Hill is 6'5" and about 95kg and ex national junior volleyball team captain, so he can jump. Only been playing footy for about 3 years and did alright in some intraclubs last year.

 

[IanW]

There's one of those blokes on the list at Casey. Luke Hill is 6'5" and about 95kg and ex national junior volleyball team captain, so he can jump. Only been playing footy for about 3 years and did alright in some intraclubs last year.

El Sketcho,

Luke Hill sounds like a good prospect, and great to have - but the beauty of international rookies is that they are *not* on the list, and they dont count against your total number of players, and you can never have too many KPP prospects.

What I'd do is give Josh Chichester a call in the next two weeks or so.

He is a six foot eight, two forty pound receiving tight end, who used to play college ball for Louisville. He is rumoured to have a thirty eight inch vertical jump (*). He is unlikely to be drafted, and is even less likely to survive training camp cuts on an NFL roster.

From his perspective, getting paid to play football in Australia is a pretty good deal, and certainly beats being an unemployed ex-college tight end in a bad job market.

From the point of view of the Melbourne club, he wouldnt count against the cap. He wouldnt count against the list. He wouldnt take a draft pick.

1. 
   Josh Chichester, TE, Louisville
   Height: 6-8. Weight: 240.
   Projected 40 Time: 4.70.
   Projected Round (2012): 6-FA.
   4/24/12: Chichester had a quality season for Lousiville. He needs to improve his blocking for the NFL, but has some receiving potential. For the 2011 season, Chichester pulled in 28 receptions for 393 yards and two touchdowns. He was not at the Combine.
   
   

http://walterfootball.com/draft2012TE.php


A criticism of him is he likes to mark the ball on his chest - no, really.


"Isn't a real natural plucker of the football though, and too often lets the ball get into his frame and likes to secure it against his chest."


http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Prospect-of-the-day-Louisville-TE-Josh-Chichester.html


Can he be taught to kick, lose the neccessary weight and develop the endurance neccessary to play AFL, even as a tap ruckman or a stay-at-home forward ? Dunno.


Whats he cost if he doesnt work out ?



Nothing.


And thats why I think Melbourne should exploit the complete and freaking heck out of the International Rookies system.


(*) Unofficial, non-Combine number, but easy to test. AFL draft camp records are here - Trent Corad jumped 32.5 inches.

http://www.topendsports.com/sport/afl/testing-draft-results.htm

 

[Captain Jack]

Wow, quality post there IanW, you make a compelling point.

 

[demonfan9]

IanW, you seem to know a bit about these International Rookies. Can you please name one that has shown decent signs at AFL level (excluding Irishmen who have grown up playing a similar sport)?

 

[demonfan9]

BTW, Shannon Byrnes will be 29 next season. Not sure that's the age demographic we should be looking at. If we got him, if would just be a stop-gap measure. I think we need to find a small forward who will be around for a lot longer.

If we're copying the "Sydney model", most of their recycled players are around 21-23 at the time (McGlynn, Richards, Kennedy, Mumford). That's what we should be look at. Young players who have had a few years in the system but haven't been able to secure a regular senior spot for one reason or another.

If you were looking to poach from our list, Petterd would be a classic example. Talented player, has some experience, can't seem to get a regular game.

 

[CowboyFromHell]

BTW, Shannon Byrnes will be 29 next season. Not sure that's the age demographic we should be looking at. If we got him, if would just be a stop-gap measure. I think we need to find a small forward who will be around for a lot longer.

If we're copying the "Sydney model", most of their recycled players are around 21-23 at the time (McGlynn, Richards, Kennedy, Mumford). That's what we should be look at. Young players who have had a few years in the system but haven't been able to secure a regular senior spot for one reason or another.

If you were looking to poach from our list, Petterd would be a classic example. Talented player, has some experience, can't seem to get a regular game.

Great point. Would like to see the list of players from other clubs who are either out of contract and in the right age range of targets for trades for low picks. Certain there would be a few out there.

 

[IanW]

Demonfan9,

Jim Stynes was obviously the best of them

I'd put Mike Pyke behind him

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NY1MNQ3EX5Y

Pyke's background is rugby union - he's Canadian.

I'd also put Hunt in that category - but its going to be interesting finding someone else with his drive and cross-code flexibility. Only taking 12 months to become an effective inside mid is amazing.

 

[Dory_77]

I'm actually really enjoying watching the campaigner play. At first I was cynical and hoped he'd fail, but he's starting to play reasonably well and goes in hard all game. Makes some errors but should become a handy player. If James O'Connor hadn't already taken millions to play with the Rebels, I'd say he could be a handy player, can run, kick, think his way through things pretty well and is still young (22 in July).

 

[demonfan9]

Demonfan9,

Jim Stynes was obviously the best of them

I'd put Mike Pyke behind him

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NY1MNQ3EX5Y

Pyke's background is rugby union - he's Canadian.

I'd also put Hunt in that category - but its going to be interesting finding someone else with his drive and cross-code flexibility. Only taking 12 months to become an effective inside mid is amazing.

Stynesy went alright.

But excluding the Irish (similar type of game) and excluding Karmichael Hunt (marketing gimmick and played a bit in high school), is Mike Pyke the only player taken under the International Rookie scheme to have semi-made it in the AFL? I can't think of any others off the top of my head. Which is why I am not so sure if any clubs are reaping the benefit of this system. And if that's the case, I wouldn't want Melbourne to be wasting valuable resources on it.

 

[IanW]

Stynesy went alright.

But excluding the Irish (similar type of game) and excluding Karmichael Hunt (marketing gimmick and played a bit in high school), is Mike Pyke the only player taken under the International Rookie scheme to have semi-made it in the AFL? I can't think of any others off the top of my head. Which is why I am not so sure if any clubs are reaping the benefit of this system. And if that's the case, I wouldn't want Melbourne to be wasting valuable resources on it.

See, the thing is, the resources you're wasting arent *valuable*. Draft picks are valuable. Cap space is valuable. Roster slots are valuable.

A couple of tight ends and a dutch volleyballer on $40k a year each ? Not valuable.

And, frankly, the Doggies are in rebuild, Port is in rebuild, Brisbane is in rebuild and GWS and Gold Coast still need players. If you're a 24 year old VFL player, who has shown something after slipping through the system as an 18 year old, you might actually have several clubs competing for your signature.

To me, this makes the 'lets look for 22-25 year old players with some talent who arent getting a game' plan problematic, as they are just the players everyone else looks for, too.

Finally, regarding campaigner, here is the youtube highlight reel of his game against Essendon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzlJmxu77xo

Watch it. He might have started as a publicity stunt, but he isnt one any more.

 

[Wonaeamirri33]

Obviously, like so many, I've never wanted the GWS franchise to happen, don't want it to be there, doubt I ever will, and am very clear in my reasons why.

But irrespective of this, I certainly appreciate Ian's contributions to our discussion here. Lots of useful information provided, and thanks to him for that

 

[LeverPuller]

There's the 'need' v 'best available' question too.

And for me, it's a tough one. I think you only go with 'need' if the player you're looking at is projected within the next 5-7 picks at most. Otherwise go best available closest to your need - it's not worth hunting lower down the draft for what we need if they're ultimately going to not be good enough.

 

[IanW]

Obviously, like so many, I've never wanted the GWS franchise to happen, don't want it to be there, doubt I ever will, and am very clear in my reasons why.

But irrespective of this, I certainly appreciate Ian's contributions to our discussion here. Lots of useful information provided, and thanks to him for that

Watching GWS build from scratch taught me a lot about how to build a football team.

The terrifying job about the job they did is that they have built an AFL side that, while mostly crap, can win some quarters and scare some teams ... and we havent played many of our first round picks, and we have three (!) first-round compensation picks banked, and we have $1.5m of cap room free next year for free agents and re-signing our own kids, and we have two seventeen year olds to on-sell.

But the best recruiting they've done was the players anyone could have picked up, for virtually nothing - Brogan, Cornes, Power, McDonald, Mohr and Giles.

In summary, ff you're in a rebuild, look for players with leadership who are too old, or who fell through the cracks of the AFL system, or who havent played AFL but might be able to.

 

[Dory_77]

Problem with those old players you picked up is that they're only going to be around for one or two seasons max. You're not going to complete your list in that time, so while they've been handy this year, you're going to need some younger guys (in their mid-20s) to step in and take over those leadership roles. Mohr and Giles are the only 2 who are going to be playing for more than 2 seasons of those you listed and even with the kids coming on you'll need more older heads than that.
Even though the Dees have plenty of players in the (23-28) age bracket, not many seem to be regular best 22 players. Shannon Byrnes might be too old for a long term solution, but for a couple of seasons could be worth it while we look for other options as a small forward/outside runner.

 

[IanW]

Problem with those old players you picked up is that they're only going to be around for one or two seasons max. You're not going to complete your list in that time, so while they've been handy this year, you're going to need some younger guys (in their mid-20s) to step in and take over those leadership roles. Mohr and Giles are the only 2 who are going to be playing for more than 2 seasons of those you listed and even with the kids coming on you'll need more older heads than that.
Even though the Dees have plenty of players in the (23-28) age bracket, not many seem to be regular best 22 players. Shannon Byrnes might be too old for a long term solution, but for a couple of seasons could be worth it while we look for other options as a small forward/outside runner.

Dory_77,

Every year there is another crop of too-old, high-leadership veterans, and so while you are in the rebuild you keep recycling them through.

Yes, a team will need that 23-28 middle group, and at GWS that will be Palmer, Scully, Davis and Ward ... but telling Melbourne to spend $4m on elite free agents just isnt helpful, and I'll let your own fan base fantasise about who they could hire in.

Therefore, I think you fix what you can, and in the case of Melbourne I think that means just accepting that you have four list slots that are marked 'old hard-heads', and have the names in those slots change until those old hard heads go 'the kids are OK'.

 

[Dory_77]

I see what you're saying Ian, and I don't think we need to go throwing squillions of dollars at a star free agent. I just think it would be more worthwhile, in the long term as that is what a rebuild is about, to bring in guys who might be able to play 4 or 5 good years, rather than players with a year or two max before they pull out.

 

[Crimson Azure]

IanW, I remember the bombers bringing out some from the US who didn't make it into the NFL in the late 90's to train with the club, he played a number of reserves games from memory & was quick as lightning but couldn't adapt to the 3D nature of the game.

Oh & his skills were crap. But I guess if it was ever to work someone playing as a ruckman with those sort of stats might have a chance.

 

[LeverPuller]

IanW, I remember the bombers bringing out some from the US who didn't make it into the NFL in the late 90's to train with the club, he played a number of reserves games from memory & was quick as lightning but couldn't adapt to the 3D nature of the game.

Oh & his skills were crap. But I guess if it was ever to work someone playing as a ruckman with those sort of stats might have a chance.

The guys to target would be...

- Tall wide receivers. These guys can jump and are quick - plus the tall ones generally mean they're a bit bulkier.
- Tight ends. Tight ends in the NFL are the all-rounders to an extent, expected to both tackle and catch. Normally too bulky for the AFL, but you could adjust them for that.
- Tall cornerbacks. See the wide receivers, but also can make an aerial contest.

That said, I don't know that any of them would make it. You'd be looking for guys who also had a basketball background, and you'd be wading into the US scouting networks for detail, which means you open yourself up to competition with the second-tier NFL comps and the CFL.