The Robodebt Royal Commission

[Mick F]

 

[CD Xbow]

The Age has an article suggesting that bloke, No One, will be the only one held responsible for the Robodebt scandal, and most of the main culprits are still on the Gov's payroll.

Will anyone be held accountable for the robo-debt disgrace?

The robo-debt royal commission has shone an important light on this dark chapter in Australian history.

www.theage.com.au

 

[Mick F]

The Age has an article suggesting that bloke, No One, will be the only one held responsible for the Robodebt scandal, and most of the main culprits are still on the Gov's payroll.

Will anyone be held accountable for the robo-debt disgrace?

The robo-debt royal commission has shone an important light on this dark chapter in Australian history.

www.theage.com.au

The delegates’ names that are on the letters of demand have issued an illegal request for money.

Or were those letters auto computer issues? If so that is further illegality, as the delegate has not brought their mind to bear upon the matter. You can’t rubber stamp the considerations for another, otherwise it is not your determination. The other officer doesn’t have the delegated authority.

 

[Not Important]

my guess is when the commissioner refers to ““doesn’t concern the demographic for which they cater...” she’s referring to the right wing numb nuts, otherwise known as 'cookers'.

“The interest of what I’ll call the traditional media, to distinguish it from social media, in these hearings has, with some honourable exceptions, been patchy,” Commissioner Holmes said this evening.

“There may be sound commercial reasons for that, the subject matter doesn’t concern the demographic which they cater to, or the issues are too many and the evidence too extensive and complicated for their form of coverage.

“But as a result I have come to appreciate the importance of social media in this context,” she said.

Robodebt Commissioner slams “patchy” media coverage - The Klaxon

 

[Festerz]

my guess is when the commissioner refers to ““doesn’t concern the demographic for which they cater...” she’s referring to the right wing numb nuts, otherwise known as 'cookers'.

Nope! You've missed her point entirely.

Because if it was just the tabloid targeting of 'RWNJs' etc. there would be nothing to worry about.

Sadly the demographic Murdoch's NewsCorp, Stokes' SevenWest and Costello's Nine Entertainment Group pitch most of their curated politically driven narrative at are not at the fringes at all.

And a reminder that the main architects and protectors of the RoboDebt scheme were not fringe players but Prime Ministers, Ministers, Senior and Middle level public servants and highly paid and well credentialed consultants from one of the world's largest consultancy firms.

THAT is what is worrying for our democracy - that the fourth estate no longer sees it as their role to represent the interests of “the people” in relation to the business and political elites who claim to be doing things in our names. And that a Royal Commission established to enquire into a massively unjust and unlawful scheme run by our national government over several years attracts next to no coverage at all from the published and online arms of our prime media outlets. Instead they see their role as running a protection racket for a conservative government at war with the poorest and disadvantaged people in society.

 

[Stumpy Pete]

One only needs to look at the recommendations and dissenting views from the 2017 Senate Inquiry to recognise that damage done by those who proudly sought to interfere, confuse and withhold information from the Ombudsman.

I’ve watched a fair bit of the committee hearings and one of the key things that has come to light is the lack of appreciation by senior public servants of the role of independents agencies and, more crucially, the right and responsibility of the parliament to hold of the government to account. Senior exec regularly approach senate committees and estimates hearings with contempt and appear to take pride in obfuscation and misdirection.
It is worth noting that evidence provided to estimates and other parliamentary processes will be subject to the protections of parliamentary privilege. However a comparison of evidence given to the royal commission against that given to the parliament may highlight potential discrepancies that could lead to charges of contempt of the senate/house. Penalties can include fines and jail time.

Equally where it can be demonstrated that a public servant withheld information from the ombudsman that may also lead to some hefty penalties. Given the tone set by the current ombudsman a few penalties may serve as a warning for bureaucrats who may be asked to cooperate in future investigations.

Apparently some of those who appeared at the commission have been told to anticipate adverse findings and to “lawyer up”.

Regards

S. Pete

 

[QuietB]

my guess is when the commissioner refers to ““doesn’t concern the demographic for which they cater...” she’s referring to the right wing numb nuts, otherwise known as 'cookers'.



Robodebt Commissioner slams “patchy” media coverage - The Klaxon

Nope! You've missed her point entirely.

Because if it was just the tabloid targeting of 'RWNJs' etc. there would be nothing to worry about.

Sadly the demographic Murdoch's NewsCorp, Stokes' SevenWest and Costello's Nine Entertainment Group pitch most of their curated politically driven narrative at are not at the fringes at all.

And a reminder that the main architects and protectors of the RoboDebt scheme were not fringe players but Prime Ministers, Ministers, Senior and Middle level public servants and highly paid and well credentialed consultants from one of the world's largest consultancy firms.

THAT is what is worrying for our democracy - that the fourth estate no longer sees it as their role to represent the interests of “the people” in relation to the business and political elites who claim to be doing things in our names. And that a Royal Commission established to enquire into a massively unjust and unlawful scheme run by our national government over several years attracts next to no coverage at all from the published and online arms of our prime media outlets. Instead they see their role as running a protection racket for a conservative government at war with the poorest and disadvantaged people in society.

You are probably both right

 

[QuietB]

One only needs to look at the recommendations and dissenting views from the 2017 Senate Inquiry to recognise that damage done by those who proudly sought to interfere, confuse and withhold information from the Ombudsman.

I’ve watched a fair bit of the committee hearings and one of the key things that has come to light is the lack of appreciation by senior public servants of the role of independents agencies and, more crucially, the right and responsibility of the parliament to hold of the government to account. Senior exec regularly approach senate committees and estimates hearings with contempt and appear to take pride in obfuscation and misdirection.
It is worth noting that evidence provided to estimates and other parliamentary processes will be subject to the protections of parliamentary privilege. However a comparison of evidence given to the royal commission against that given to the parliament may highlight potential discrepancies that could lead to charges of contempt of the senate/house. Penalties can include fines and jail time.

Equally where it can be demonstrated that a public servant withheld information from the ombudsman that may also lead to some hefty penalties. Given the tone set by the current ombudsman a few penalties may serve as a warning for bureaucrats who may be asked to cooperate in future investigations.

Apparently some of those who appeared at the commission have been told to anticipate adverse findings and to “lawyer up”.

Regards

S. Pete

Good

 

[Not Important]

Nope! You've missed her point entirely.

Because if it was just the tabloid targeting of 'RWNJs' etc. there would be nothing to worry about.

Sadly the demographic Murdoch's NewsCorp, Stokes' SevenWest and Costello's Nine Entertainment Group pitch most of their curated politically driven narrative at are not at the fringes at all.

And a reminder that the main architects and protectors of the RoboDebt scheme were not fringe players but Prime Ministers, Ministers, Senior and Middle level public servants and highly paid and well credentialed consultants from one of the world's largest consultancy firms.

THAT is what is worrying for our democracy - that the fourth estate no longer sees it as their role to represent the interests of “the people” in relation to the business and political elites who claim to be doing things in our names. And that a Royal Commission established to enquire into a massively unjust and unlawful scheme run by our national government over several years attracts next to no coverage at all from the published and online arms of our prime media outlets. Instead they see their role as running a protection racket for a conservative government at war with the poorest and disadvantaged people in society.

you have this propensity 2 take the doctrinaire approach.


obviously my comment was expansive to elicit a particular response. equally obviously there are peeps with right views at the excessive end with active neurones and who wouldn’t be considered cookers.


conflating the coverage of nine and stokes with murdoch is misguided. with all their failings, both stokes and nine have offered coverage (limited in quantum as it was) that was less emotionally combative than murdoch which has been wholly combative - at least there was little patchiness there. murdoch's market via their print media and electronic media are predominantly rightist neanderthals. there have been docos that have contained commentary from former fox senior execs who have said as much. including roger ailes. which conforms with his reticence to cover stories hostile to the reactionary cause and promote stories that are beneficial to the cause. it's their m o.


my take-home message is that the commissioner was more focused on one conglomerate ( but obviously couldn’t be specific) than others. you don’t see it that way. that’s your opinion. it’s not mine.


of course, i agree ”the fourth estate no longer sees it as their role to represent the interests of “the people” but that’s a broader question.

 

[nut]

So when you “own the media” and destroy whistleblowers lives through laws…. And you act against the publics interest and act for corporations and big business … what do you call that again?
What’s the definition of fascism?

The Scomo government was a fascist government that had no problems trying to destroy our public service.

The LNP in NSW is the same.

 

[Stumpy Pete]

Having reviewed some of the testimonies I think there are three groups of public servants who may be in legal trouble.

The first group are those who operated the Robodebt program which has been found to be unlawful.

The second group are those who took action and made decisions to make false representations to and/or withhold evidence from the Ombudsman.

The third are those who gave false or misleading evidence to the Parliament.

Kathryn Campbell probably sits in all three groups as do Annette Musolino and Malinda Goligtly.

Jason Ryman, Mark Whitwell and Scott Britton probably land in the first two groups - I can’t see that they gave evidence to Parliament but there may be misleading content in responses to questions on notice that they may have been involved in.

Jason McNamara, Russell de Burgh and Robert Hermann are probably in group two only - these guys seem to have been involved in providing misleading or false evidence to the Ombudman.

As intimated in an earlier post, the Ombudsman and the Parliament both had an opportunity to stop this but evidence provided to both processes was withheld and/or doctored to the point of it being false or misleading. If both of these bodies want to ensure that public servants honour the expectations and legal requirements of their engagements with these bodies then this is as good an opportunity as they will ever get to punish public servants and send a warning to all the others.

Regards

S. Pete

 

[Gethelred]

So when you “own the media” and destroy whistleblowers lives through laws…. And you act against the publics interest and act for corporations and big business … what do you call that again?
What’s the definition of fascism?

The Scomo government was a fascist government that had no problems trying to destroy our public service.

The LNP in NSW is the same.

Plutocratic subversion of capitalist democracy, not fascism.

 

[E Shed]

Plutocratic subversion of capitalist democracy, not fascism.

The only difference is who calls the shots, the money or the thugs at the top of the army/political party.

It amounts to the same thing. Big business & politicians colluding to create authoritarian rule.

Massive generalizations but I’m not sure there is much other functional difference. What you describe is just the update of the old model where we’re still left with an illusion of democracy.

 

[Gethelred]

The only difference is who calls the shots, the money or the thugs at the top of the army/political party.

It amounts to the same thing. Big business & politicians colluding to create authoritarian rule.

Massive generalizations but I’m not sure there is much other functional difference. What you describe is just the update of the old model where we’re still left with an illusion of democracy.

It's a fairly important distinction, though. Fascists over time seek to restrict those with power into steadily more niche categories; first it's real Germans, then it's Germans with blond hair and blue eyes.

While autocratic capitalists are shit, they don't need to revise the ingroup down over and over to limit who has the power and they don't need to kill people over it. It's purely about money. For all that greed is crappy, it's also a motivator for them to need to keep substantial portions of their customer base and workforce alive and free to make decisions.

Then, you've the other problem: by calling Morrison/Dutton fascists, you further subvert the meaning of fascism along the lines of those doing so for the purpose of blunting the term. The new right have wholly seized on the potential of postmodern shifts in language in order to remove from the lexicon words and terms that have been used to fight them.

Why give them the ammunition?

No, Morrison/Dutton weren't fascists. Let's stick with the facts, please.

 

[Not Important]

yes, yes a thousand times yes. and those assisting too.

 

[E Shed]

It's a fairly important distinction, though. Fascists over time seek to restrict those with power into steadily more niche categories; first it's real Germans, then it's Germans with blond hair and blue eyes.

While autocratic capitalists are s**t, they don't need to revise the ingroup down over and over to limit who has the power and they don't need to kill people over it. It's purely about money. For all that greed is crappy, it's also a motivator for them to need to keep substantial portions of their customer base and workforce alive and free to make decisions.

Then, you've the other problem: by calling Morrison/Dutton fascists, you further subvert the meaning of fascism along the lines of those doing so for the purpose of blunting the term. The new right have wholly seized on the potential of postmodern shifts in language in order to remove from the lexicon words and terms that have been used to fight them.

Why give them the ammunition?

No, Morrison/Dutton weren't fascists. Let's stick with the facts, please.

I disagree. The way the libs have slowly eroded free press, muzzled the ABC, politicized the public service, the police, the army & destroyed piece by piece any body or organization capable of holding the government to account, the way they have constantly sought an other to demonize, their weaponisation of patriotism, religion etc has enough in common for fascism to be a useful description of their behavior.

As I said earlier it’s just a case of who is pulling the strings. If it’s a dictator then yes their prejudices are a factor but in the modernized version it’s the political body which is captive to & colluding with the money & the MS media is part of the apparatus. It’s mostly owned by the money side & that which is not, I.e. The ABC is slowly captured by the state until it becomes part of the problem rather than holding it to account.

 

[Mindtraveller]

yes, yes a thousand times yes. and those assisting too.

Is the ICAC commissioner job still open?

 

[Festerz]

I've added this to my spotify playlist 'incompetent bureaucrats'

 

[Not Important]

Is the ICAC commissioner job still open?

like your thinking. not sure she's up for longish appointments tho.

 

[Festerz]

She does look legitimately scary

 

[CD Xbow]

The Conversation has an article by Prof Whitehead about the problems with income averaging.

Why robodebt’s use of ‘income averaging’ lacked basic common sense

My new report for the royal commission examines why the practice of income averaging is so problematic.

theconversation.com

As he says, it simply defies common sense that a process that is so incorrect could be implemented. You don't need legal opinions about it, it was simply wrong and should never got legs. All the senior bureaucrats and pollies involved should have seen this immediately.

 

[Saint]

The Conversation has an article by Prof Whitehead about the problems with income averaging.

Why robodebt’s use of ‘income averaging’ lacked basic common sense

My new report for the royal commission examines why the practice of income averaging is so problematic.

theconversation.com

As he says, it simply defies common sense that a process that is so incorrect could be implemented. You don't need legal opinions about it, it was simply wrong and should never got legs. All the senior bureaucrats and pollies involved should have seen this immediately.

The best bit was when the IT Department told them that it was wrong. Those numpties never look at anything and probably know nothing about policy or legislation, but even they knew what was going on was wrong and should be stopped.

All these buffoons on huge pay packets with Group Manager, Executive, Principal, fancy titles and not two ounces of common sense to rub together between them.

 

[kalex6251]

we all have memories of life negotiating the rough and tumble of schoolyard dynamics ..... an insult often used in jest where i grew up went something like "... who cut ya hair man" ...... not the sharpest of putdowns ill grant you .... but cant help but have flashbacks to that time whenever i see pictures of this woman

 

[CD Xbow]

The best bit was when the IT Department told them that it was wrong. Those numpties never look at anything and probably know nothing about policy or legislation, but even they knew what was going on was wrong and should be stopped.

All these buffoons on huge pay packets with Group Manager, Executive, Principal, fancy titles and not two ounces of common sense to rub together between them.

Ironic really, the IT dept recognized it was wrong, yet all these people on big salaries and probably with hundreds of degrees between them couldn't see a problem. They needed that kid who told the emperor he had no clothes.

I think common sense goes out the window when folks get in their heads that they want a particular result and are willing to do anything to achieve it. For the senior public servants, it was clearly about pleasing their masters, the pollies. I think it shows the real dangers of a politicized public service. For the Pollies it was about budget savings and making hay publicly with the politics of cruelty, which appeals to some.

 

[burge13]

The Age has an article suggesting that bloke, No One, will be the only one held responsible for the Robodebt scandal, and most of the main culprits are still on the Gov's payroll.

Will anyone be held accountable for the robo-debt disgrace?

The robo-debt royal commission has shone an important light on this dark chapter in Australian history.

www.theage.com.au

While people here love to blindly cheer their political team as tribalism is more important than policy in 2023. Scummo is an idiot PM and should be held accountable, Albo could easily take these people off payroll and isnt. He is rewarding poor behaviour equally. I look forward to the hypocritical replies in 3...2...

360B wasted on subs we dont need. Everyone hated previous government for the same deals being done, possibly cost less. Where is the outrage?! Oh, their team did it so its fine

The sooner idiots here in Australia accept both sides of politics arent here for anyone but their own careers, the sooner something good might happen here. Keep cheering your teams though! Theyre the better ones