The Ruck Dilemma

[gbatman]

Come round 1 we are facing a difficult dilemma where we will have 4 good quality ruckmen up for selection. Warnock, Kreuzer, Hampson and Jacobs. So who makes the side? I don't think we can play more than 2 of them unless one really steps up as a permanent forward and it's not looking likely that one of them will shift Waite, O'hAilpin or Henderson.
You could drop O'hAilpin and play Kreuzer in the forward pocket but then you lose what he offers when on the ball which is quite a lot. You also lose O'hAilpin who might be very valuable if a key defender goes down mid match.
I don't think you can play three big men, in modern footy you need to stack our bench with run. Play 3 big men and we lose a bit of run by having a quality small/medium player miss out.
I think we are just going to have to bite the bullet and accept that there are going to be two very good quality ruckmen in the bullants this year. Perhaps this will help them to improve their skills as forwards.

So here is my question, what do we do with our rucks? Who plays? Who plays where?

Warnock is a massive 206cm tall and has good skills as well as being seen as a quality tap ruckman. He was recruited and is seen as our number 1 ruck. There still remain a lot of questions about him and IMO he still has a lot to prove. The biggest worry floating around is that his leap is not much good. Perhaps a condition from missing the past two seasons and putting on a lot of weight and having feet problems. Any way he is seen as a quality prospect and will no doubt improve.

Kreuzer is seen as a quality ruckman especially around the ground. He is also seen as a potential good tall forward. IMO he's not up to playing on key position defenders, he doesn't protect the drop zone of the ball well enough, just not strong enough and his body on body technique needs a lot of work. I think maybe stints up forward but predominantly playing in the ruck for him. He brings a lot to the on ball group as with his skill and athleticism it's like having another onballer. He's quite a tough inside player when the ball is in dispute.

Hampson showed that he can get his hand on it in the center quite a bit and that he could potentially be a dangerous forward and around the ground ruckman with his athleticism and mobility. The thing holding him back is his poor hands, drops far too many marks. I think he's been good in practice games and will probably be a whole lot better this year.

Jacobs has been seen for a long time as the last resort but this is not the case. He's better than that. He's very skillful, a nice kick and really good with his hands. He often has the poise to hold on to the ball and rarely stuffs up a handball or kick. He's slow but he makes up for it by being quite agile and good with his hands as well as being quite a decent tap ruckman with his long arms and good timing with his ruck work. He was impressive in his games last year and IMO there are many teams that would love to have him.

 

[as0l0]

probably fair to say we have 1 good ruck man (Kruez) and 3 that might be something. Still a difficult choice though.

 

[raymagoo]

pretty tough decision, thought there might have been a bit more interest in hammer & sauce in the off season trade period? Maybe we think they're better than they are!

At the moment I would say Kreuzer as No.1 with hammer sitting on the bench! Hammer just has a bit of x-factor which i believe should get him the selection!

A little more match practise in the magoos for 206 won't hurt and he can hone his game.(hmm spelling on that?)

This unfortunately sits sauce as 4th ruck, I feel he has the skills for 2nd, but hey what do u do?

If hammer starts to clunk his marks or Kreuzer forward works this whole process will change!

We're in a good ruck stock situation finally!

 

[C4[2]Yo`DooR]

Warnock and Kreuzer do the ruck duties

with Hammer on the bench or resting forward.

 

[Blue since 72]

Krueze is obviously a certainty barring injury regardless of where he plays and I think the mc will try three, the other two being 206 and Hammer.
206 will get first dibs as you say because he was recruited to be our starting ruckman and he has to be given a decent shot at it. Hammer could be anything and he rucked better against nicnat on the weekend than 206 did so I'd say he would start on the bench.

The question for me is If Hendo and Irish start at FF and CHF and we rest Kreuzer forward is this too many talls in the forward line? primarily in terms of when the ball goes to ground and defensive pressure in general.

I know all three can lay claims to providing decent defensive pressure but we cannot afford to have the ball coming out of the forward 50 quickly on the rebound as our midfield still favours attack over defense.

Plus where will Waitey fit in when he's up and going.

Unfortunately the hard luck story here is probably going to be sauce. Very promising tap ruckman who is hard to move off the line and I have noticed an increased mobility in him this pre-season.

Who said we didn't have enough talls?

 

[HARKER]

Warnock and Kreuzer do the ruck duties

with Hammer on the bench or resting forward.

That will probably be the case.

One thing though: Most here keep putting forward Kreuzer as being our best ruckman.
Now that may be the case, but I still don't see Kreuzer as being a good ruckman.
We all know of his second efforts and other great attributes, but purely on his ruck abilities, he has a long way to go.
If Warnock can't do that job better then we have issues.

We need the tap ruckman that puts the ball to advantage and for all the love we all have for Kreuzer, this does not occur as regularly as we would like it to.

 

[gbatman]

Yeah I think perhaps Warnock might have to spend some time at VFL level, he's still got a fair bit to work on and a fair bit to prove. I don't like the idea with having three of them. It's pointless unless one can stand up as a forward and none have proven they can play forward well enough yet.

We had enough problem with not having enough players to go through the midfield and struggling for run last season, having 3 ruckmen just doesn't work for me.

3 ruckmen plus Setanta, Waite, Henderson, Bower, Thornton, Jamison. It's just too tall, especially in the forward half, although Waite can just about be counted as both a small and a tall as he's a goodes and a kouta type.
You can have no more than 3 tall forwards, and can only have 3 tall forwards if at least one of them is extra mobile and can do it defensive and win it at ground level.

 

[dumb]

wouldn't be surprised if setanta spends some more time back this year. release someone like thornton or bower from more defensive roles, especially if waite is playing forward.

i think kreuzer at this point should only rest up forward instead of being permanent. ditto warnock, i don't think he's a real forward option at this point. hampson looks the most likely at this point but he needs his marking to improve.

 

[blueboy25]

There seems to be a lot of anti-warnock sentiment on here over the last week.

I watched him pretty closely on saturday and yes he did get out jumped by Nic Nat but he is not the first and certainly won't be the last ruckman to do so.

206 works hard and always gets front spot at boundary throw ins and around the ground. Remember he has just missed a season of footy, when our midfielders get use to him we will see the full benefit.

The tractor is an obvious one for round 1 and I think hammer will get a game round 1 as well.

Unfortunately that puts sauce 4th but he will get his chance during the season.

 

[celtic_pride]

I can't see the club able to retain 4 ruckman on the list for the long term, certainly there might become a time where a player becomes unhappy and wants to request a trade to another club due to lack of oppotunities ...

And Hawthorn right now are decimated in the ruck stocks, with Simon Taylor going down.
And with Jarryd Roughead out of contract at the end of year, perhaps an trade can be arranged for Hampson (and possibly a 2nd rnd pick) to the Hawks for Roughead ...

It would be a win-win situation for both clubs.

 

[C4[2]Yo`DooR]

I can't see the club able to retain 4 ruckman on the list for the long term, certainly there might become a time where a player becomes unhappy and wants to request a trade to another club due to lack of oppotunities ...

This.

The Kangaroos tried to retain 4 ruckmen, but in the end had to trade Moran for lack opportunities.

The same will happen to us with Sauce I think.

 

[gbatman]

i think our options are:

1. play two ruckmen and Setanta.

2. Play 3 ruckmen and leave Setanta out, rotating them through the forward line, bench and ruck.

for me, number 2 makes no sence. Setanta is going to be a better forward option IMO than the 4 rucks and Setanta provides a little security if a defender goes down or we need a change down back. You can't move a ruckman to defence, it won't work. The thing is you only need 2 players to ruck. Why would you have 3 players in that aren't that crash hot forwards to ruck? You wouldn't it's unnecessary and you lose either a tall utility (O'hAilpin) or one of your midfielders sacraficing your run.

 

[gbatman]

Yeah I can't see us retaining Sauce, he's too good to be playing VFL, but probably wont play for Carlton much.

Hawthorn are a club that would love to have him IMO and maybe even Geelong and the New sides coming in. Fremantle might need a second ruck as well.

There is going to come a time when we will have to trade one, it will probably be Jacobs and you would think there would be takers.

 

[Blue crush]

Think 2010 will be a vry interesting year for our ruck stocks. Whilst we certainly dont have the best ruck combitation in the comp, we do however have the most depth in the ruck and as a result at seasons end I believe Jacobs will depart to seek greener pastures, which would be fair if he were to get limited games in 2010 - As for the other 3 they all all players the CFC have invested in heavily - Kruz is Kruz, Hampson was signed on a 3 year deal and so too was warnock and was also gave up quite a bit to get him both $ and draft picks. In my opinion there is no doubt that Kruz in number 1 and although warnock is a few years older then Hammer they are both at very similar stages of there career in terms of games played and development - Robbbie who has only played 20 odd games is seen by many supporters as having much to prove, and hopefully now that his body is right he can show us all why the CFC have invested so heavily in him.
I agree that you cant take 3 talls into round one so I am opting for Kruz and Robbie narrowly over Hammer. Fridays at Visy Park game for our ruck division is very much an audition for round one..

 

[aic-poppy]

One thing that everyone has to remember is that Ruckmen go down with injury more than any other position. We only had 2 of the 4 available last year and most teams will have at least 1 of their ruck options go down for most of the season.
We'll still probably find it hard to keep all 4 next year. I reckon if Hampson goes well this year, he could be offered a very sweet deal to go home to the GC.

 

[BlueYoss]

You can't carry 3 rucks in the seniors unless one of them is providing an adequate option as a KPP (in which case, which KPP's place would they take?). Kreuze will be the first picked in the senior side and Warnock and Hampson are both too good to play in the VFL waiting on an injury for a call up. My guess is that Hampson will either become a key forward this year or one of Hampson or Warnock will look to be traded elsewhere to be #1 ruck.

 

[jonoman89]

I personally have been a lot more impressed with Hampson than Warnock. I'd have Kruezer 1st ruck and 2nd ruck Hampson. Warnock has to earn a spot, and he hasn't done much to do so this pre-season.

 

[Kramer1]

We might have four reasonable ruck options, though ruckmen find unique and interesting ways of getting injured and I doubt we will have the luxury of selecting from four form rucks very often. Brisbane would have been quietly chuffed at their ruck depth until a few days back as well.

I expect Warnock will be given every opportunity to partner MK early in the season and form will dictate what happens from there.

 

[celtic_pride]

Am I the only guy here who is actually impressed with Warnock ? (well against brisbane anyway, he really was one of our BOG IMHO)

Don't forget he basically missed all of last year through injury (played a couple of games for the Bullants) Give the bloke some time guys, the club rated him highly and gave up some decent draft picks to get him ...

Warnock will be a very good player for us, given time and an injury free run.

 

[gbatman]

Warnock will be a good player for us, for sure, it's just a matter if he's ready now and if he's in better form than Hampson now. It's hard to say without seeing much of him in practice games.
I hope he does play and play well. It might do good for Hampson to play up forward in the ants and work on that side of his game.

 

[HARKER]

Am I the only guy here who is actually impressed with Warnock ? (well against brisbane anyway, he really was one of our BOG IMHO)

Don't forget he basically missed all of last year through injury (played a couple of games for the Bullants) Give the bloke some time guys, the club rated him highly and gave up some decent draft picks to get him ...

Warnock will be a very good player for us, given time and an injury free run.

No, you're not.
Clearly Carlton as a whole liked him to have handed over pick 24 for Warnock.
I've liked what I saw through early year training sessions and also the Brisbane game.

Warnock has been primed to take over 1st. ruck duties and watching he and McLean combine through the pre-season certainly indicated that we would give that combination first run in the centre.

Now things have clearly not looked that flash over the last couple of weeks, but I do still feel that come round one this is exactly what we'll see.
First bounce will have Warnock rucking and McLean in the centre.
The MC have invested a lot of time into that combination and will not dismiss it that quickly after a couple of pre-season failures.

I was expecting some backlash over my comments on Kreuzer's rucking.
I had made the same type comments running on from mid last year and interestingly we had an article the weekend papers a couple of weeks back indicating that only a very small percentage of Kreuzers knocks are actually to advantage.
In fact he was rated as low as third or fourth last through all the leagues ruckman, in the tap to advantage department.
To be honest, I did not need those figures to have known that to be the fact.

Will Kreuzer improve? Of course he will, but we must be able to get a better result than we had last year, hence Warnock.

 

[Blue since 72]

No, you're not.
Clearly Carlton as a whole liked him to have handed over pick 24 for Warnock.
I've liked what I saw through early year training sessions and also the Brisbane game.

Warnock has been primed to take over 1st. ruck duties and watching he and McLean combine through the pre-season certainly indicated that we would give that combination first run in the centre.

Now things have clearly not looked that flash over the last couple of weeks, but I do still feel that come round one this is exactly what we'll see.
First bounce will have Warnock rucking and McLean in the centre.
The MC have invested a lot of time into that combination and will not dismiss it that quickly after a couple of pre-season failures.

I was expecting some backlash over my comments on Kreuzer's rucking.
I had made the same type comments running on from mid last year and interestingly we had an article the weekend papers a couple of weeks back indicating that only a very small percentage of Kreuzers knocks are actually to advantage.
In fact he was rated as low as third or fourth last through all the leagues ruckman, in the tap to advantage department.
To be honest, I did not need those figures to have known that to be the fact.

Will Kreuzer improve? Of course he will, but we must be able to get a better result than we had last year, hence Warnock.

Agree. During his draft year nicnat shat all over him in the u18's carnival and I even reckon sauce is a better pure ruckman than Krueze but he certainly makes up for it with virtually every other facet of his game.
I think he works best when he's in the action and would question his value forward for more than short bursts.

I'd like to see him in the middle as another midfielder or winger; his tank, pace, follow up and work below his knees would put more than a few current 'bonafide' midfielders in the shade TBH.

 

[shell23]

This is what i think should happend, Kreuzer is our number 1 ruckman. Warnock will be our number 2 ruckman, i kind of hope that Gold Coast go for Hampson or Jacobs. Get a good draft pick(9 or maybe even 7)

Sentanta play foward or back.
Waite play foward or back.
Henderson play foward.

 

[HARKER]

I'd like to see him in the middle as another midfielder or winger; his tank, pace, follow up and work below his knees would put more than a few current 'bonafide' midfielders in the shade TBH.

No doubt.

Watching Kreuzer last year, it was obvious he was getting tired at the back end of the season, yet interestingly he has carried on the same rucking manner to date this year.

I may be wrong and am happy to be corrected, but why on earth does Kreuzer spend more time sizing up his man through a ruck contest rather than looking for the small he is wanting to palm the ball to and having eyes for the ball?
He just doesn't look confident to me. It may be his style but it seems of one coming from being on the back foot rather than one of instigating the play.
It just looks to me of an attitude of, "I'll accept breaking even"
Just my observations..

 

[Blue since 72]

No doubt.
I may be wrong and am happy to be corrected, but why on earth does Kreuzer spend more time sizing up his man through a ruck contest rather than looking for the small he is wanting to palm the ball to and having eyes for the ball?

Definately eyeballs the opposition ruckman, have also heard commentators refer to it during a game and he's not the only one, so I don't know why he and some others do it; maybe its a positioning thing or maybe he's concerned about the size and height difference with some of the more established ruckmen but I can't see how it is advantageous.