The Ruck

[TooBlue14]

I thought I’d start a new thread about this complex issue.

There are a few things to take into account in 2019 and how it impacts on Carlton.

1. Our ruck options - Kruezer, Lobbe, Phillips, (Casboult, TDK, McKay). What are each of their elite attributes (if at all).
2. New ruck rules - The ability to grab the ball out of the ruck. The 666 rule allowing tall bodies inside 50 1 on 1 marking contests which ruckman will dominate.
3. Playing 1 or 2 ruck - playing 1 didn’t work in 2018 Finals, having the 666 rule allows for the extra tall inside 50.

I think we should play Kruezer and Phillips. Phillips is very good forward and can kick a goal. I can’t see him losing a 1-on-1 inside 50 to any defender it it comes in quick. Being we were one of the better sides in the competition at centre clearances (and not do good around the ground clearances due to lacking fit numbers around the ball) we should be able to manipulate the new rules to suit us.

A forwardline of McKay, Curnow, Phillips and McGovern forces opposotion teams to roll the dice and hope we don’t win centre clearances. Which is impossible as we will get it forward at all costs. If we don’t mark it the ball will come out pretty quickly unless we sort the small situation very quickly. 2 should comer it.

At the other end having the four tall marking defenders and 2 small/medium defenders suits us the other way if we lose the quick clearance. Manouvering the rotations to allow for transition play to be okay once the 666 rule turns back to zone is necessary so having 4 runners on the bench would be beneficial. I go of topic.

The other rule I’d like to exploit is the ability to take the ball out of the ruck. There is a possibility we can use Cripps or Curnow in this position to just grab it and get it on the boot. We could be clever and concede numbers around the football at standard stoppages around the ground but have a few numbers 1-1.5 kicks away forward. Teams will soon figure it out but it would be a handy early tactical advantage particularly over Richmond.

Obviously it doesn’t need to be Cripps and Curnow. We could have our ruckman grab the ball to dispose to a clearance player. Is this rule only in effect around the ground or can you grab it out of the centre?? Now that would be interesting. Delays the handball or tap and we could just play the 1 inside mid if nec lessary as we are backing our height to just win first hands. We might start seeing small ruckman just go in for the tackle.

Discuss!

 

[TooBlue14]

Clarkson this morning believes two ruckman is the go for 2019. I think
Melbourne will be going with Gawn and Pruess at the same time. They will be tough to stop. I think teams will be forced to play 2 ruck against them.

 

[CJMB]

I think the dual ruck works better when you have 2 ruckmen who can both competently play forward and pretty much share their ruck & forward duties. Vardy & Lycett from last year the prime example just as Lycett & Ryder this year will be similar. I'm still not convinced that Gawn & Preuss will co-exist in the same way, Preuss is fairly one dimensional.

I don't like the idea of Kreuz playing say 55% ruck and 30% forward with AP playing 45% ruck and 35% forward. I'd much rather Kreuz do his 80-85% TOG in the ruck and rest on the bench, at which point McKay can cover for him.

With Charlie, McGovern and possibly Jack (as well as Cripps, Kennedy, Setterfield) we've got enough bigger bodies so when Harry is rucking it's not just Charlie all on his own getting smashed by multiple key defenders.

Playing Phillips as a co-ruck/fwd with Krezuer when we've already got Harry and Charlie probably means someone like Jack or Setterfield misses out on the 22 and I think we'd probably get better value on game day with one of those guys that can play as a 3rd tall but also run in the midfield.

I think you either run 1 genuin ruckman who plays the majority of the game in the ruck and gets chopped out by a ruck-capable KPP or you run 2 ruck-fwds who share duties a bit more equally.

I'd say we might do the twin ruck/fwd thing in a few years with Harry & Tom, but they as a combination are hardly comparable to Kreuzer & Phillips.

 

[Jeremias]

I have always said you should only consider playing dual rucks if one or both excel in a secondary position.

Otherwise you're entering the game on the back foot effectively a man down and that's obviously far from ideal and very seldom works.

We have three rucks who have next to no impact on the game when played out of the ruck so playing two of them in the same side should not be a consideration at any time. Not even if we're going into a game against two recognized rucks.

We're far better off playing a primary ruck with a forward option who can provide a chop-out if and when necessary, and giving that last spot to another running option.

 

[SurreyBlue]

Clarkson this morning believes two ruckman is the go for 2019. I think
Melbourne will be going with Gawn and Pruess at the same time. They will be tough to stop. I think teams will be forced to play 2 ruck against them.

Did you have to post a picture of 2 of the biggest f@@@@its in football on a Carlton site.

 

[gbatman]

I don't see two ruckmen becoming a thing again unless one can play elsewhere. I think the rotations cap has a bit to do with the two ruckmen going out of the game. We're setup quite well for ruckmen, our three senior rucks are quite good and TDK is a very promising up and comer. Harry McKay will ruck a bit and I feel he'll be quite good. I think he can be replaced in the forward line by taller midfielders such as Cripps and Silvagni though McGovern and Curnow are a fine combination.

I think Kreuzer is still number one ruck. He's suited to playing sole ruck and resting on the bench. I think probably only Phillips is useful forward and he's only somewhat useful, TDK might be but he's only in his second season.

 

[thebluelagoon]

a few years ago when Kreuzer and the midfield were all up and running, there was talk of Carlton midfield being unstoppable with the 6 v 5 that Kreuzer created... I see a fully fit Special K being needed full time in the middle.

Kreuzer is however fronting up for the season, not fully fit. get him right... play philips or Lobbe with Casboult or Mckay 20% ruck.

I would not like to see Mckay being knocked around in the ruck as a colt and DeKonnig is not ready.

For these reason Casboult should play some games this year as a lead up option/ second ruck/battering ram.

its not pretty but its reality

 

[gbatman]

I see DeKoning as being a more likely second ruck option if we go down that path. I doubt we will go down that path, Curnow, McKay and McGovern do not need another companion and it's not sensible to have a second ruckman sitting on the bench.

However we would go with DeKoning for development purposes, it was clear last season that we are very keen to play the young players and DeKoning playing was a good sign of that.

 

[Opine]

Lobbe in the key CS ruck role. MK in the traditional around the ground Ruck Rover role that he is built for.

 

[Jabba73]

Our rucks can’t forward and our forwards can’t ruck. Going to have to make do with Kreuzer playing as a solo with a chop out from McKay or Casboult for short periods.

Hoping McKay becomes as dangerous as Roughead was for the Hawks during their dominance.

 

[gbatman]

I think McKay will be good as a part time ruck. The importance of the role isn't great, especially when you see Richmond use Grigg in that role and win a flag doing so. The role of ruck itself is only really somewhat important, plenty of flags won by ruckmen who would only really be rated as competitive. Having a gun ruckman is more of a cherry on top than a real necessity.

Getting around the ground in the key, there's quite a bit of ground to cover as a center half forward and as a ruckman so we might see McKay play full forward more with Curnow center half forward regularly. but I do expect the two to share the load between playing deep and playing high.

 

[Arr0w]

I think McKay will be good as a part time ruck. The importance of the role isn't great, especially when you see Richmond use Grigg in that role and win a flag doing so. The role of ruck itself is only really somewhat important, plenty of flags won by ruckmen who would only really be rated as competitive. Having a gun ruckman is more of a cherry on top than a real necessity.

Getting around the ground in the key, there's quite a bit of ground to cover as a center half forward and as a ruckman so we might see McKay play full forward more with Curnow center half forward regularly. but I do expect the two to share the load between playing deep and playing high.

Agree with you regarding ruck play, I prefer players that have a strong 2nd position, such as the likes of Vardy, Lycett, Hale, Sinclair types.

McKay, TDK and to a much lesser extent Levi, are reasonable coverage, but still sense we need to target a ruckman/forward in the 23-26 age profile

 

[Blue and Blue]

Clarkson this morning believes two ruckman is the go for 2019.

What he means is he doesnt have a ruckman good enough...lol. Hes good at trying to con the competition that bloke.

That said I think if the game does go that way and I hope it does then Lobbe becomes important as our best tap ruckman and Kreuzer can play the bull. Phillips has to force his way in somehow. As the younger ones develop time will sort out a few years down the track.

 

[Arr0w]

What he means is he doesnt have a ruckman good enough...lol. Hes good at trying to con the competition that bloke.

That said I think if the game does go that way and I hope it does then Lobbe becomes important as our best tap ruckman and Kreuzer can play the bull. Phillips has to force his way in somehow. As the younger ones develop time will sort out a few years down the track.

None of MK, Phillips or Lobbe will have a massive impact on the game

None of them are real threat forward

 

[mikeythemoocow]

I do like DeKoning. I think he will be a reasonable player

 

[gbatman]

Agree with you regarding ruck play, I prefer players that have a strong 2nd position, such as the likes of Vardy, Lycett, Hale, Sinclair types.

McKay, TDK and to a much lesser extent Levi, are reasonable coverage, but still sense we need to target a ruckman/forward in the 23-26 age profile

I think we are confident that TDK will be a good ruck/forward. If they can't play they are a deadset liability in a side and if they can play then it's probably going to be hard to just get one from another club.

I'm happy with DeKoning and I hope that he plays more ruck this season. I'm hopeful that some time this season he will show some serious signs that he is going to take the number one ruck spot and next season some time that he will start to play games as our number one ruck.

If we do have a ruck who is capable of playing forward like I think he will then we have that ability to rotate our ruck through the forward line which will be good for us.

I think our future will be McKay forward and part time ruck and DeKoning ruck and part time forward. If it's a forward structure that works and I think it will then this would give us the ability to maintain that structure.

McKay being an athletic 200cm forward and TDK being a 201cm ruckman who is really mobile and can take a mark. There are some good signs there, could be a real good combination.

 

[RAPPA]

If only Casboult had the capacity to put in a second effort, he would be a somewhat reasonable second ruck option. I’m well aware of his shortcomings, but out of he, and our four genuine ruck options of MK, Phillips, Lobbe and TDK, Cas has the best fwd output.

 

[gbatman]

We may just get a surprise, wouldn't surprise me is McKay surpasses Casboult in the ruck as well. He's taller and more athletic. No doubt Casboult has been useful, he's made a good career based on versatility but the feel is the next generation is passing him bye.

I actually think our ruck department is fairly solid and is in a good place.

 

[CJMB]

Lobbe in the key CS ruck role. MK in the traditional around the ground Ruck Rover role that he is built for.

What he means is he doesnt have a ruckman good enough...lol. Hes good at trying to con the competition that bloke.

That said I think if the game does go that way and I hope it does then Lobbe becomes important as our best tap ruckman and Kreuzer can play the bull. Phillips has to force his way in somehow. As the younger ones develop time will sort out a few years down the track.

Hang on, are you guys suggesting that we line up in the square like this?
Ruck: Lobbe
Ruck rover: Kreuzer
Rover: Cripps
Centre: Kennedy/Fisher/Dow/etc

I really don't like that. Kreuz is great for his around the ground work, lodging up a good share of contested possessions and being a physical presence around the ball. That being said, I think his best work actually happens in the follow up directly after he's competed for the tap. I shudder at the thought of him trying to barrel through the ruck contest with Lobbe still there and Cripps trying to get his hands on it. Would be like watching a multi-car pileup.

None of MK, Phillips or Lobbe will have a massive impact on the game

None of them are real threat forward

Boom. The twin rucks thing works when you've got 2 guys who can get around the ground and both are competent as both rucks and forwards. Let's not pretend we'd actually pick MK, ML or AP as a key forward ahead of McKay

No way Collingwood says "hey, Grundy is pretty handy as a midfield type accumulator, let's play him on ball with Cox the primary ruck doing the tap work". As good as Grundy is at that stuff, he's no Pendlebury/Treloar/Beams/Adams/etc.

Similarly, playing Kreuzer as a ruck-rover means playing him as a midfielder ahead of one of Kennedy, Fisher, Murphy, Dow, SPS, Ed, etc. I'll take a starting square of Kreuzer-Cripps-Kennedy-Fish/Murph/DowSPS/etc ahead of Lobbe-Kreuzer-Cripps-Fish/Murph/Dow/SPS every day of the week.

Lobbe and Phillips are not that good of a tap ruck that you have to select them. We're not talking about Cox/Sandilands/etc in their prime. Team selection for the ruck is easy: pick the best ruck who is fit and then at FF you pick the best tall bastard who can pinch hit for about 4-5 minutes each quarter while the main ruck is on the bench.

Ruck: Kreuzer, Lobbe, Phillips, Casboult
Lobbe & Phillips possibly tied for 2nd string but personally I'd have Lobbe ahead. Casboult the break glass in case of emergency ruckman.

FF/relief ruck: McKay, Casboult, De Koning
If Mckay misses I'd have Levi as 2nd string FF/RR ahead of TDK due to his size. That being said if I was going to pick one of the two alongside McKay (ie in the scenario where Charlie or Mitch are unavailable and we want to keep the 3 tall structure) I'd play TDK ahead of Levi.

We've also got Jones who can jump in the ruck mid game if we're faced with some nasty stuff and lose a player or two and only have one of the aforementioned still in the game, but hopefully that doesn't happen.

 

[Opine]

MK's best asset has always been his bullocking work; forcing the ball forward once the ball has left the neutral Ariel contest.
He gets from contest to contest; is strong; loves the physical stuff; and continually drives the ball forward.
Some teams have to resort to using their bull CHF's in similar utility roles when they need physical presence to turn the tide of a game.
I think MK is naturally built for that sort of role. Cannot see why he can't share a similar role with Cripps.