Thornton all but gone

[btdg]

But the Hawks offer was matched. It doesn't matter where it started out, it was matched in the end. That shows that we do value him. It's a business and contract negotiations always have to and froing.

The base 150k was a furphy, the likely value was 240-260k. Nothing to sneeze at.

But the initial offer does matter. It says to him "we're going to pay you below market value if we can get away with it" - that we don't rate him as highly as other clubs do, even though he's amongst our most consistent players and our hardest workers. Combine that with our terrible situation and lack of positive changes, and you can see why he'd start to look elsewhere.

 

[Bluebear]

But the initial offer does matter. It says to him "we're going to pay you below market value if we can get away with it" - that we don't rate him as highly as other clubs do, even though he's amongst our most consistent players and our hardest workers. Combine that with our terrible situation and lack of positive changes, and you can see why he'd start to look elsewhere.

BS - have a look at Kouta's contract negotiations........and any contract negotiations.
I'll bet you Fisher and Betts didn't accept their first offers either. Their managers would have said "Never accept the first offer". They NEGOTIATE for more money....that a managers job.
If Thornton wanted more money and years he got it....if he's leaving because it wasn't the initial offer, or it took too long.......bye, thanks for nothing traitor.
I just hope that we do get the Hawks 1st pick, because then they'll have an overpaid 2nd-3rd best defender and no Leuenberger......bring it on.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

But the initial offer does matter. It says to him "we're going to pay you below market value if we can get away with it" - that we don't rate him as highly as other clubs do, even though he's amongst our most consistent players and our hardest workers. Combine that with our terrible situation and lack of positive changes, and you can see why he'd start to look elsewhere.

Come on now, don't be silly. If we played all of our players what another club thought they were worth, we would be a wooden spooner $1 million over the cap as we would have been in 2003 if we didn't catch it in time.

How many Eagles have accepted half the amount they could get somewhere else, how many Lions did? Kosi reportedly signed for about 250k less per season than what he was offered elsewhere.

If you think we should match offers that are offer and above what the player should be getting and do it right off the bat, we would be dead in no time at all. The fact that we eventually came to the party shows T-Bird that we really couldn't afford to lose him, therefore demonstrates his true value to us. Read SOS's book, the Blues turned the screws every time he came up for re-negotiation ... do you think we didn't value him? Do you think he really believed that or did he know that all clubs play hard ball at contract time? It's a process you work through .. simple as that.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Your'e kidding right?

Talks have been happening for a while now, Carlton were very firm with their policies and player value stand. They were banking on him accepting it, in other words they took him for a fool and called his bluff. When he said "thanks, but no deal" they then threw all supposed policy out the window and said "please don't go, here we'll offer the same money". Terrible performance by an inept bunch of amateurs. It has damaged their integrity as club leaders and has set a dangerous precedent.

Pfft, did you say something? You offer nothing constructive or objective in this thread or on this board. Take a leaf out of philhawk's book if you want to participate.

 

[DynamoUltra]

Re: Hawthorn's 2nd round pick for Thornton

Spider and pick 56 to Sydney
Pick 15 and Clinton Young to Carlton
Thornton and pick 35 to Hawthorn.

Sydney gain: Spider, pick 56.
Carlton gain: Pick 15, Clinton Young
Hawthorn gain: Thornton, pick 35.

Sydney lose: Pick 15
Carlton lose: Thornton, pick 35
Hawthorn lose: Everitt, Young

 

[Furn]

Re: Hawthorn's 2nd round pick for Thornton

Don't overrate the draft, Furn. As Mojo rightly pointed out on another forum, 22 year old KPP types with a solid temperament are few and far between.

A pick between 10 and 15 is definitely what he's worth (IMO). Then again, Carlton fans could think he's worth more?

mojo has also said that x ellis would go 10 - 15 in this draft so your saying thornton is worth ellis??

 

[Pafloyul]

Re: Hawthorn's 2nd round pick for Thornton

It is not about what he is worth, it is about supply and demand.

He is not worth pick seven but it is what we would want for him.

It is not like as if Hawthorn is in the box-seat come the preseason.

 

[btdg]

BS - have a look at Kouta's contract negotiations........and any contract negotiations.
I'll bet you Fisher and Betts didn't accept their first offers either. Their managers would have said "Never accept the first offer". They NEGOTIATE for more money....that a managers job.
If Thornton wanted more money and years he got it....if he's leaving because it wasn't the initial offer, or it took too long.......bye, thanks for nothing traitor.
I just hope that we do get the Hawks 1st pick, because then they'll have an overpaid 2nd-3rd best defender and no Leuenberger......bring it on.

I understand your point, but I'd explain it better this way:

- Your at work, and up for a performance review. The boss offers you a new pay package
- The following day, another company offers you a similar job with a much better pay package
- You go back to your boss, to whom you feel some loyalty, and ask him to match or better the new offer
- The boss ums and aahs, makes a few statements about how you aren't worth it, then when it appears you might leave, offers to match the contract.

Where are you going to go? In all honesty, you are going to go to the employer that you think is best for you in the long run. And given you don't know much about your new employer (except what can be gleaned from the outside), your response is likely to be a reflection about your feelings regarding your current employer. If you think they are a good company, well run, and with good prospects for the future, you will probably stay. If you think you are more likely to thrive individually at your current job, you will probably stay. If you believe your current boss is a moron, that you are underappreciated, and that your current company is up **** creek without a paddle, your most likely going to leave. Sure, you might feel a bit of loyalty to the company that took you on for your first job, gave you the opportunity to succeed - but the prospects for the future will far outweigh that unless the two jobs are very close together.

Its a double standard to expect anything else of Thornton in this situation, and its time we realised the implications of his decision and put a stop to it before it gets worse. Thornton is realistically only a second tier guy - but if Murphy, or Fevola, or (actually I'm running out of names) were to leave under the same circumstances it could just about break us.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Re: Hawthorn's 2nd round pick for Thornton

Spider and pick 56 to Sydney
Pick 15 and Clinton Young to Carlton
Thornton and pick 35 to Hawthorn.

Sydney gain: Spider, pick 56.
Carlton gain: Pick 15, Clinton Young
Hawthorn gain: Thornton, pick 35.

Sydney lose: Pick 15
Carlton lose: Thornton, pick 35
Hawthorn lose: Everitt, Young

Not sure about this one. The concensus offer seems to be #15 anyway (and we want slightly better than that). Do we need Young for #35? I think I want to leave #35 out of it altogether.

I don't think the Swans are willing to give up #15 for Everitt at any rate.

Not sure that a 32 year old Everitt is worth the same as a 23 year old Thornton. Hawks kill out of that deal.

 

[Silvagnis]

Re: Hawthorn's 2nd round pick for Thornton

I will personally smash both his knee caps before i let him go to Hawthorn for nothing, if he ****s us over look out.

I know someone who works at Hawthorn so I can arrange far worse.

 

[Fastback]

Come on now, don't be silly. If we played all of our players what another club thought they were worth, we would be a wooden spooner $1 million over the cap as we would have been in 2003 if we didn't catch it in time.

How many Eagles have accepted half the amount they could get somewhere else, how many Lions did? Kosi reportedly signed for about 250k less per season than what he was offered elsewhere.

If you think we should match offers that are offer and above what the player should be getting and do it right off the bat, we would be dead in no time at all. The fact that we eventually came to the party shows T-Bird that we really couldn't afford to lose him, therefore demonstrates his true value to us. Read SOS's book, the Blues turned the screws every time he came up for re-negotiation ... do you think we didn't value him? Do you think he really believed that or did he know that all clubs play hard ball at contract time? It's a process you work through .. simple as that.

SOS was paid over the cap -probably not the best example, but what you're saying in terms of negotiation is correct. What isn't correct is the way the club made out their hands were tied. Even your prez came out publicly to read the riot act - as far as thornton was concerned the club was capped and couldn't deal any further. It had to get to the stage where he said he was leaving that they then matched the offer, the prez and footy dept were bull *&$#ing him all along, had they dealt normally instead of playing used car salesman they might have given him a better reason to stay - sorry but you fluffed it.

 

[Furn]

Re: Hawthorn's 2nd round pick for Thornton

If we get pick 15 well keep it the offer is pick 24

 

[btdg]

Come on now, don't be silly. If we played all of our players what another club thought they were worth, we would be a wooden spooner $1 million over the cap as we would have been in 2003 if we didn't catch it in time.

How many Eagles have accepted half the amount they could get somewhere else, how many Lions did? Kosi reportedly signed for about 250k less per season than what he was offered elsewhere.

If you think we should match offers that are offer and above what the player should be getting and do it right off the bat, we would be dead in no time at all. The fact that we eventually came to the party shows T-Bird that we really couldn't afford to lose him, therefore demonstrates his true value to us. Read SOS's book, the Blues turned the screws every time he came up for re-negotiation ... do you think we didn't value him? Do you think he really believed that or did he know that all clubs play hard ball at contract time? It's a process you work through .. simple as that.

I don't think that we should match all other contract offers. I think we should make our own judgements, that they should be good judgements, and that should be the basis of our negotiations.

In my outsiders opinion, the initial offer to Thornton seemed slightly low, given our requirement to pay a fixed proportion of the salary cap - we could have rewarded him by paying over the odds in the short term, with the promise of on-field rewards later. And when you suck as a team, you have to pay over the odds in the short term to retain or attract players, its a fact of life.

Our low offer may indicate we didn't value him that highly. Given our administration have more exposure to him than the rest of us, they may know something we don't that led them to that position - an injury, or off-field issues, or that player X will fill his role next year or whatever. If so, then thats fine - you let him walk. So why then match Hawthorn's offer, under sufferance, and still manage to lose him? Either he's worth that much, or he isn't. By not offering him what we were prepared to pay in the first place, other clubs got a window they may not have otherwise. Then he saw what was on offer, saw we couldn't match the prospects for short-term success, and left.

In the end, when you play hardball and lose, questions have to be asked about your methods. When you are a bottom team, you need to be winning more than you lose or your going to stay on the bottom for a long time.

 

[Fastback]

Pfft, did you say something? You offer nothing constructive or objective in this thread or on this board. Take a leaf out of philhawk's book if you want to participate.

ok, you've taken it personally, bit of a shame - you'll find these are the facts.

 

[Louie22]

Re: Hawthorn's 2nd round pick for Thornton

I know someone who works at Hawthorn so I can arrange far worse.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

What isn't correct is the way the club made out their hands were tied. Even your prez came out publicly to read the riot act - as far as thornton was concerned the club was capped and couldn't deal any further.

Link?

It had to get to the stage where he said he was leaving that they then matched the offer, the prez and footy dept were bull *&$#ing him all along, had they dealt normally instead of playing used car salesman they might have given him a better reason to stay - sorry but you fluffed it.

If you tell me that the Hawks initial offer to all of their players is as much as they can get at any other club, I would say you have no idea how negotiations work.

I'm getting frustrated at the this first offer thing, it has been and always will be a starting point in any player negotiation. Don't kid a kidder.

 

[Silvagnis]

Re: Hawthorn's 2nd round pick for Thornton

I'm not kidding.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

ok, you've taken it personally, bit of a shame - you'll find these are the facts.

I'm not taking it personally. I just don't like misinformation and free kicks where not warranted.

The first offer was a maximum of 240k, no insult there. 2nd year, up to 260k no insult there. The fact that Carlton didn't immediately come out and match the 3 year 300k per season offer means diddly squat. If that is the reason, then Thornton and his manager are the ones being silly.

He did deserve more than the first offer and there should have been any chance of a low base rate if true, but it was a first offer. Beyond that, not you, me or anyone else know the detail of subsequent negotiations. I'd suggest that would be reason enough for you not to come in here pretending to know how it went down while bagging Carlton on its team board.

Theorise, debate whatever, do it constructively instead of having a shot and all is good. What you offered are not facts unless you were involved in the negotiations yourself and know them to be so.

 

[Hu$$ey]

Re: Hawthorn's 2nd round pick for Thornton

F*ck off pick 24!!

I want pick 6 by itself, can't get that then see ya later, let him walk into the PSD and go to another cellar dweller.

I won't even do pick 19 + Thornton for pick 6, that's two top 20 players for not even a top 10 pick, not to mention Thornton is a solid full back with 10 years in front of him.

If Hawthorn can't do that, then might think about pick 35 + Thornton for pick 6.

Even if this draft is superior to previous years, there will still be uncertainty as is the case with every single draft, you don't let a key position player who has already proven himself go for anything less than a top 10 pick, especially when he can play for a decade still. There is a reason Hawthorn offered him 300k per annum.

Might call it absurd or whatever but the currency for KPP in the market is ridiculous.

What did Brad Ottens go for? 2 first round picks
What did Hay go for? 2 first round picks
What did Ted Richards go for? first rounder
What did Nathan Thompson go for? Pick 7
What did Danny Jacobs go for? Pick 6 IIRC
What did Fergus Watts go for? first round pick
What did Trent Croad go for (in 2001)? Pick 1

Say all you like about this 'super draft' it is still a draft, Thornton holds more value than every single player traded on that list (note the word value, which takes into account age, potential upside playing in a better team etc) except perhaps what Croad did in 2001. If all those players were traded for first rounders, some for even 2 and Thornton is much much better value, there is no reason to think pick 6 is absurd, even in this 'super draft'.

The market will dictate the price and the market for young key position defenders in enormous.

Take it or leave it.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

In my outsiders opinion, the initial offer to Thornton seemed slightly low, given our requirement to pay a fixed proportion of the salary cap - we could have rewarded him by paying over the odds in the short term, with the promise of on-field rewards later. And when you suck as a team, you have to pay over the odds in the short term to retain or attract players, its a fact of life.

But we are also in the position of being financially responsible ... never forget that.

Our low offer may indicate we didn't value him that highly.

The fact that we matched the offer shows we did value him. It highlights emphatically that the first offer was a starting point and we are trying to be tough negotiatiors, aka financially responsible.

So why then match Hawthorn's offer, under sufferance, and still manage to lose him? Either he's worth that much, or he isn't.

Of course he isn't worth that much, he had us by the goolies.

By not offering him what we were prepared to pay in the first place, other clubs got a window they may not have otherwise. Then he saw what was on offer, saw we couldn't match the prospects for short-term success, and left.

Disagree. The offer from the Hawks was on the table in the same breath as our first offer was. His manager had tested his market value. And he didn't just wake up and look at the Hawks list and think 'gee they should like they have a future'. He knew it already.

In the end, when you play hardball and lose, questions have to be asked about your methods. When you are a bottom team, you need to be winning more than you lose or your going to stay on the bottom for a long time.

And if you pay over the odds for players, people point to that as a reason for failure. Damned either way.

Bottom line, money matched and still walking = no loyalty to teammates, looking for personal glory and inability to handle criticism from the coach. We came last, they all should be prepared to accept some criticism. Pagan has to take his lumps, why are the players protected species?

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Re: Hawthorn's 2nd round pick for Thornton

If we get pick 15 well keep it the offer is pick 24

Go and offer it to the club, they are the ones negotiating. If you want the Carlton forum to accept it, then peddle your wares elsewhere.

 

[Fev_1989]

Re: Hawthorn's 2nd round pick for Thornton

If thornton were to leave we would be left with a big hole at the back. Maybe we could work a 3 way trade with freo, hawthorn and ourselves to try and get polak to carlton

 

[Furn]

Re: Hawthorn's 2nd round pick for Thornton

Leave it then thanks

your lucky to get pick 24

now its only the bombers that are interested and without us they get him for free

oh well carlton stuff up again

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Re: Hawthorn's 2nd round pick for Thornton

Leave it then thanks

your lucky to get pick 24

now its only the bombers that are interested and without us they get him for free

oh well carlton stuff up again

So what? I'd rather lose #24 than hand over a decent fullback to a Hawks side that got in the ear of one of our required young players while we were at our lowest ebb. #24 has a 50/50 chance of being a nothing while we know Thornton is something.

 

[Hu$$ey]

Re: Hawthorn's 2nd round pick for Thornton

Yep fine by me.

Melbourne have shown interest, we'll gladly accept their pick 12 if it came to worse, they are a team on the up, Thornton won't refuse would he?

If he does then he can go to Essendon who are starting to just get into the **** hole we got ourselves into so he goes to another cellar dweller and we stick it up him.

Win-win