Three points for a win --- Hmmm

[Karanicolas]

Originally posted by Dan26
In a totally fair world the winner of a sporting league (any team sport) should have to play every side twice (home and away) getting twice as many points for a win as a draw. That will create a perfectly fair and equitable ladder.

Why is a win worth double a draw in a fair and equitable system?

 

[Bulldog1954]

Originally posted by Shinboners
I reckon that if the away team gets a draw or win, the points they get should count for double.

Why? With every team playing each other home and away I don't see the point. And I also agree with the 3 points for a win law, it encourages sides to go for a win and prevents lower sides of just trying to scrape a boring draw. A win is what the game is about and draws are boring for the spectators

 

[Dan26]

Originally posted by Karanicolas
Why is a win worth double a draw in a fair and equitable system?

*sigh*

Because a win is a win, a loss is a loss and a draw is the mid-point.

It is neither a win , nor a loss. It is exactly in between. It is no closer to a loss than it is to a win. It is in the middle. A fair an equitable system will recognise this.

The question is not whether the sytem is fair and equitabe (it obviously isn't.) The question is do we want it to be fair an equitable? Do we want the unfairness to give the advanatge of encouraging teams to go for a win? There is a strong current of support suggesting it is better to be unfair. Maybe they have a point?

 

[moomba]

My mother always told me that if you couldn't say anything nice, then you shouldn't say anything at all. With that in mind can I just say

 

[Shinboners]

Originally posted by moomba
My mother always told me that if you couldn't say anything nice, then you shouldn't say anything at all. With that in mind can I just say

Interested to hear what you said about Nash 10 seconds into the Massives vs Barcodes match.

 

[Dan26]

Originally posted by The Hitman
So was the belief that the world was flat.

The Hitman

Congratulations on the most stupid and irrelevant post of the year.

 

[Dan26]

Originally posted by Diego Forlan
Now that I think about it:

Lets remove any possibility of a draw. After all, a draw means nobody has won the match. Why reward teams for not winning? So my proposal is this: if the match after 90 minutes is a draw, a return leg is played a few days later. Aggregate scores are totalled. The away goals rule can be applied if the aggregate scores are still level. If the away goals rule cannot decide a winner, the team that has the higher winning percentage in the league so far will be declared the winner.

Failing that:
The team with the least yellow cards will win the tie (straight red card counts as 2 yellow cards)

Failing that:
The team with the highest transfer market value will win the tie

Failing that:
The team with the least number of civil/criminal convictions will win the tie

Failing that:
The team that has the most number of front page articles in the local tabloids will win the tie.

Failing that:
The team that has a manager that can speak legitimate English without the need for translators will win the tie

Failing that:
The team that has less players with a failed music career will win the tie.

Failing that:
Guns at 20 paces. The team with more players alive after the shootout wins the tie.

Oh, and I agree with the away team getting double points for a win. Furthermore, a home team that wins should get half.

 

[moomba]

Originally posted by Shinboners
Interested to hear what you said about Nash 10 seconds into the Massives vs Barcodes match.

Silent, very silent, extremely silent, so silent that he could probably hear the silence from my living room

Moomba

 

[Diego Forlan]

Originally posted by Dan26

Computer jokes are just so lame Dan.

Besides, why do you want to post with us mere unintelligent teenage bandwagoners? There's always BigSoccer. You're just far too good for us.

 

[Shinboners]

Originally posted by moomba
Silent, very silent, extremely silent, so silent that he could probably hear the silence from my living room

Just like being in an Old Trafford executive box hey?

 

[Squeak]

Originally posted by Dan26
[B
It is neither a win , nor a loss. It is exactly in between. It is no closer to a loss than it is to a win. It is in the middle. A fair an equitable system will recognise this.

[/B]

Says you! That's not neccessarily true. It is however, a valid opinion. As is the opinion that a draw is not the exact mid-point.

 

[Dan26]

Originally posted by Squeak
Says you! That's not neccessarily true.

It is 100% true.

Originally posted by Squeak
It is however, a valid opinion .

It's not valid. Anyone who says a draw is not the exact mid-point didn't learn maths.

Originally posted by Squeak
As is the opinion that a draw is not the exact mid-point.

A draw is the exact mid-point, end of story. Win and a loss are the opposites. When neither side wins and neither side loses, they meet at the mid-point. Giving less than half the alloctaed points for a draw creates a potentially unfair situation.

Now as I said, this might be a good thing, because it could create more results. But that's not the point. The point is, it's unfair. That itself is beyond argument.

 

[Dan26]

Originally posted by Diego Forlan
Computer jokes are just so lame Dan.

 

[Diego Forlan]

Originally posted by Dan26

I'd give you some credit if it were original, but considering Frosties_Flank has been doing this for some time, it only makes you a bandwagoner.

 

[Diego Forlan]

I'm going to stick my neck out here now and say that they should remove the possibility of draws by playing a golden goal and/or penalty shootout scenario.

At least someone will win the game and they will have rightly earned 3 points. That way nobody can squabble about a draw being half a win or worth 1 point.

 

[Dan26]

Originally posted by Diego Forlan
I'm going to stick my neck out here now and say that they should remove the possibility of draws by playing a golden goal and/or penalty shootout scenario.

At least someone will win the game and they will have rightly earned 3 points. That way nobody can squabble about a draw being half a win or worth 1 point.

If the sport had a lesser frequency of draws you might have a point.

 

[Diego Forlan]

Originally posted by Dan26
If the sport had a lesser frequency of draws you might have a point.

...straight through to the keeper (once again)

 

[Shinboners]

I suppose that if you are to use mathematics to determine what is an appropriate valuation for what someone does, then why is it in AFL football that a goal is worth 6 times more than a behind? Have they done a statistical analysis to show that it is 6 times more difficult to get a shot on target between the two big sticks rather than one big stick and one shorter one? A team could conceivably get 5.20.50 (25 shots on goal) and lose to another team who gets 9.0.54 (9 shots on goal) - is that a fair representation of what has happened? Obviously the first team did all the attacking, had the better of the play, and yet they get penalised by what might be a mathematically inappropriate scoring system.

What happens if it's only three times as hard to get a "goal" than a "behind"? To be fair, shouldn't a goal be only worth 3 points?

 

[Diego Forlan]

What about the wizard cup policy of extra points (is it 9?) for a goal outside 50? Is it three times harder from outside 50 than within?

 

[Dan26]

I searched for Soccer tables over the last 100 years and had difficulty finding a site which listed all the results. I did find a site which listed the total points, but not how many wins, losses and draws each team had.

However I did find a Liverpool web-site with all their historical results here

Over the last 22 seasons when the 3-point rule has been in place, Liverpool's record is 225 draws and 639 non-draws (either a win or a loss.) Therefore, from 1982 to 2003, 26.04% of Liverpool's matches have been draws.

In the 22 years preceding 1982 (the last 22 years with the 2-point rule), Liverpool's record was 237 draws, 687 non draws (either a win or a loss.) From 1960 to 1981, 25.65% of Liverpool's matches were draws.

So, at leass from Liverpool's point of view (and the sample is large enough to be more than relevant) the three point rule has made no difference to the frequency of results. There is less than half of one-percent difference and this is due to nothing else but random variation.

 

[Dan26]

Originally posted by Shinboners
I suppose that if you are to use mathematics to determine what is an appropriate valuation for what someone does, then why is it in AFL football that a goal is worth 6 times more than a behind?

This has no relevance to anything discussed here. We are talking about the results of matches - not the scoring system used within them.

Originally posted by Shinboners
Have they done a statistical analysis to show that it is 6 times more difficult to get a shot on target between the two big sticks rather than one big stick and one shorter one

Irrelevant. All that matters is the end result of the match and that can be either a win, a loss or a draw. How we get to that win, loss or draw is up to the scoring suystem used in that sport. But once the result is complete, a draw (if it happens) is half the value of a win.

The actual scoring system used within the match is totally irrelevant and the fact you would devote even one post to it, is ridiculous.

Originally posted by Shinboners
What happens if it's only three times as hard to get a "goal" than a "behind"? To be fair, shouldn't a goal be only worth 3 points?

None of that is measurable anyway. You can't meaaure how much harder it is to score a goal than a behind. But even if you could it is irrelevant. The match result (W, L or D) is the thing that matters. If it to be totally fair, the same amount of points should be up for grabs in every match and if a draw eventuates those points shoud be shared. In Soccer some matches have a total of 3 points and others have 2. This means some matches are more important than others. All 380 matches should have the same importance.

Judging by Liverpool's results over the last 44 years (22 with the 3-point rule and 22 without it) there have been no notable difference in draws. I don't know what the other club's results would be, but I would take an intelligent guess that similar conclusions will be drawn. Liverpool's sample is just too large for it to be discounted.

 

[Dan26]

Originally posted by Bulldog1954
A win is what the game is about and draws are boring for the spectators

If you are only excited by high scoring games then that is pretty sad. There are plenty of exciting low scoring games, including draws. This goes for all sports. Since when does a Soccer game have to be 5-3 for it be be a top game?

 

[Squeak]

Originally posted by Dan26
If you are only excited by high scoring games then that is pretty sad. There are plenty of exciting low scoring games, including draws. This goes for all sports. Since when does a Soccer game have to be 5-3 for it be be a top game?

Where does he mention high scoring? I get the impression he regards a 1-nil win better than a 4-all draw.

Heh, I can nit(wit?)pick with the best of 'em.

 

[moomba]

Originally posted by Dan26
I searched for Soccer tables over the last 100 years and had difficulty finding a site which listed all the results. I did find a site which listed the total points, but not how many wins, losses and draws each team had.

For the five years prior to the 3 point rule results were achieved in 71.2% of all Division 1 matches. For the five years after the 4 point rule was introduced results were achieved in 75.5% of all Division 1 matches. Pretty significant, and much more relevant to the statistics of one side alone.

I am sure you will always appreciate that despite sides going flat out for a win and the 3 points, that this does not always end up in a result. I am sure you will always appreciate that a 1-1 all draw where sides were attacking to the end trying to achieve a result is preferable to a 1-1 draw where both sides were sitting back making sure that they didn't concede a goal (at the same time, not really exerting themselves to score).

Moomba

 

[Falchoon]

Originally posted by Diego Forlan
Falchoon steps up to the plate, may the force be with you son!

Hardly,

I'll give my opinion and read the opinions of others.
But I will not waste mine or anyone elses time in trying to convince the likes of Dan