Time to go back a step

[FuManchu]

I hope Collingwood realise that the window has closed again and that they really need to prune the list harshly, including getting rid of some you dont want to.

With the list the way it is, we will not win a flag. We need to say goodbye to Burns ( sorry a great servant, but he wont be around for the next tilt at the flag) O'Bree (he is a plodder and not a game breaker) Presti (as he is now injury prone) Rocca (he too is now too injury prone and wont be around for the next serious tilt) Egan ( enuf said). And probably some more

Unless we accept a bit of pain for the next 2 years, we wont have the opportunity to bring in enough fresh faces to be matured and seasoned enough when our next rise on the ladder should occur.

I know people think we are close, but in reality, we are an effective midfield and one or two KPP in the backline short of a seriuos tilt at the flag.

IN a few years some of our promising players like Pendlebury and Thomas will be seasoned players and leaders. That is when we should be looking to rise up the ladder again. Geelong and Hawthorn should probably be starting to wane a little and a new generation of contenders coming thru. And mark my words, that will include a very good Carlton outfit.

We should also consider a trade for fraser, he is a good player when on song and not injured but he has held us back the last 2 seasons with his injuries and he is not a ruckman as such. Trade him now when he has some value to offer.

Supporters will hate to hear this, but the last two years have been some of the most inconsistant years of football I have ever seen from the club. I'd rather know that the team running out is in a rebuilding phase and is developing than the current state where I dont know if we are going to slay the giants or lose to the minnows as has been the case the last 2 years. This current team structure and personnel just aren't cutting it.

It is almost like the club is trying to hang onto the periphery of the 8 at any cost and trying to avoid any fall on the ladder. In the great cycle of football these days, you have to drop to rise again. The Hawks being a perfect example. They had a massive list pruning and accepted the pain of being at the bottom, and are now reaping the rewards .

If I knew we would be in their position in 3 years time if I was prepapred to be near the bottom for the next 2 years, I'd sign up right now. At the moment we are just treading water. Not drowning, not really forging ahead either.

 

[tess]

Problem is unlike T Shaw in his last year MM wont do it for the next coach.

 

[FuManchu]

Problem is unlike T Shaw in his last year MM wont do it for the next coach.

Well, Malthouse should have gone at the end of 2004. he obviously has a sweatheart deal with Eddie. (I dont like to criticise Eddie, as he has done wonders for this club, but he needs to look at the coaching situation a bit more objectively). But in coaching I reckon you get 5 years to make your mark, MM has had 9 and got us close 2 or 3 times but his refusal to have an evolving game plan and to ignore the midfield and rucks has cost us. Once again, I fear he wont do the hard yards to cut back so we can address those deficiencies with a 3 year plan in mind and we will keep certain players just so we are close to the top, but never quite at the top.

Time to go MM. We need a new generation coach, like the Hawks have, maybe even like carlton has.

 

[shawthing09]

Throwing kids who aren't ready to the wolves is not the best method unless your really willing to ride it out and get a lot of early draft picks Tiges and Carlon St Kilda (Still yet to be proven to bring sucess). Or have the middle age talent to trade for top draft picks Hawthorn, I think WCE might be the next on that list.

Our list isn't in a bad enough state to be riding out seasons on the bottom and our middle age talent doesn't hold enough value. Most of the players with real trade value are the players who are leading our next charge.

By all means I am for replacing some of the older players with younger players. I am hoping Presti is made to take a back seat ditto O'Bree and if someone puts there hand up for Burnsy possie I hope he can too. I still think they and Rocca are needed to help the youngsters develop without to much pressure. Let the progession from old to young be natural like it has been so far.

 

[Nardz]

we have a very young side as it is - and this young side needs some leadership.

I agree O'bree should go, but Burns, Rocca, and Presti we need to hang onto for the example they can set for the kids and the leadership they can show in their respective areas on the field. Yes these players may not be part of our premiership side but to have them there for the transition is very important IMO.

You don't need to bottom out to be good. Being a midfielder and 2KPP defenders isn't that far off and that can be gained through development with what we have and the draft (they don't have to be top 5 picks - you can get good players with 2nd, 3rd and 4th rounders if drafting and development is up to scratch)

I would trade Fraser though, if a good offer came.

 

[Bloben]

The older players who we are going to be losing are not our core team. The reason for our success in making finals this year is more the emergence of the younger guys coming on quicker than can be expected.

Next year will be Thomas and Pendles 4th year and they are likely to continue to get better IMO. We will have Rocca back for one more year. Rusling and Reid in the forward line. Didak and Heater back into the side.

I am not expecting us to knock down the premiership door next year but I would be unhappy if we went backwards. In reality we should be right behind Geelong and Hawthorn in 2009.

 

[FuManchu]

Throwing kids who aren't ready to the wolves is not the best method unless your really willing to ride it out and get a lot of early draft picks Tiges and Carlon St Kilda (Still yet to be proven to bring sucess). Or have the middle age talent to trade for top draft picks Hawthorn, I think WCE might be the next on that list.

Our list isn't in a bad enough state to be riding out seasons on the bottom and our middle age talent doesn't hold enough value. Most of the players with real trade value are the players who are leading our next charge.

By all means I am for replacing some of the older players with younger players. I am hoping Presti is made to take a back seat ditto O'Bree and if someone puts there hand up for Burnsy possie I hope he can too. I still think they and Rocca are needed to help the youngsters develop without to much pressure. Let the progession from old to young be natural like it has been so far.

But that is the mentality that is holding the club back. It is the refusal to accept that you have to hit the bottom in AFL before you can rise again. An argument can be made to keep all these players, because they will all lend experience. But by doing so, you are not bringing in youth and you are not letting that youth develop. All you are doing is babysitting the 2nd and 3rd year players we already have.

Some of the players you have mentioned are so injury prone these last two seasons that they are not even there to allow the younger players develop, they are not on-field. All they are doing is taking up a spot on the list.

I for one am prepared to accept a few years of pain as long as the club recruits where it has deficiencies. And that wold include getting rid of Malthouse because his refusal in the past to address certain deficiencies has cost us. I mean to say, O'bree was a plodder 5 years ago, and yet he is still running around ( albeit slower than before). fraser has never been a ruckman as such, yet he is still the 1st ruck pick. We knew we were going to lose Clement, Presti and Wakes all in the space of two years or so, yet what succession plan was implemented to make the transition less harmful?

It is time to cut our loses, understand we have the basis of a good forward line and build from there.

 

[FuManchu]

we have a very young side as it is - and this young side needs some leadership.

I agree O'bree should go, but Burns, Rocca, and Presti we need to hang onto for the example they can set for the kids and the leadership they can show in their respective areas on the field. Yes these players may not be part of our premiership side but to have them there for the transition is very important IMO.

You don't need to bottom out to be good. Being a midfielder and 2KPP defenders isn't that far off and that can be gained through development with what we have and the draft (they don't have to be top 5 picks - you can get good players with 2nd, 3rd and 4th rounders if drafting and development is up to scratch)

I would trade Fraser though, if a good offer came.

Burns, Rocca and Presti hardly get on the paddock these days, thats not setting an example, thats taking up a spot on the list.

 

[smiddaz123]

As far as I know not one club has ever won a flag by chipping the ball down the wings. We need to use the corridor!

Malthouse can take a player with average pace and skills and make them a handy player, but he struggles to take a player with genuine ability and turn them into a champion.

Most people believe Didak is just a rung below elite. IMO a great coach would have Didak at the elite level. The same will apply for Thomas. If Thomas was at a club that carries the balls (Hawks, Dogs etc) then he'd be a star already.

Our talented young players seem to stay 'promising' for far longer than other clubs. Look at Cloke, he's still 'promising'. Roughead and Franklin, both taken in the same draft, are certified stars of the AFL.

Our gameplan needs more run and carry and creativity imo.

 

[FuManchu]

The older players who we are going to be losing are not our core team. The reason for our success in making finals this year is more the emergence of the younger guys coming on quicker than can be expected.

Next year will be Thomas and Pendles 4th year and they are likely to continue to get better IMO. We will have Rocca back for one more year. Rusling and Reid in the forward line. Didak and Heater back into the side.

I am not expecting us to knock down the premiership door next year but I would be unhappy if we went backwards. In reality we should be right behind Geelong and Hawthorn in 2009.

Carlton and Richmond will place above us next year.

 

[ksardog]

we are going just fine, we have been depleted by injuries and self imposed bans for the last 2 years, we have introduced 14 new players in that time with most making a significant impact in those 2 years.add rusling rocca reid didak shaw burns prestigiacomo to that side against st kilda and we win easily.everyone is going on about how good st kilda played but we had 6 more scoring shots and our disposal was as bad as its been all year.another quality midfielder wouldnt go astray but with a side with an average age of 23 we are definately on the up

 

[campbell]

can I ask a few questions.

How long is your coaches contract for, and do yo think he is safe for next season?

 

[4#Didak#4]

Nothing drastic needs to happen. We have one of the youngest lists around already & they will naturally develop. The odler guys will naturally drop of but if they serve a purpose & they want to keep playing hang on to them. Burns is a leader, Presti if fit will fill a big hole for one more year. Rocca is questionable as to what he now provides. If you trade Fraser you need to trade for another ruckman.

People need to understand that we have been rebuilding. I for one two years ago would never have expected us to be playing or competitive in finals with what we had. The premiership was not something that anyone would have reasonably expected. If you did expect a premiership from that group in the last two years you were massively optimistic & explains your current disappointment & axe wielding attitude. The last two years are a massive bonus in that it gives young players finals experience.

I for one expect the coach & players to give their best with the list they have and not just give up & drop to the bottom to rebuild. MM has got the maximum out of the playing group and thats all you want from a coach. With list management over the last two years he hasn't "topped" up with rejects like some other clubs. They have recruited very well with a view for the next 5 years. Medhurst is the only big trade in & no one can argue with that - plus he is not old and we got Reid/Brown (never sure which ) for him.

All the people suggested as trimming the list will not make us bottom out, they had minimal impact on the year (except Burns). The only way to bottom out with this list is to tank. Unfortunately if we are to bottom out the next few years are the worst time in history to do so thnks to GC 17 & West Syd coming in.

 

[well left]

I think our hand will be forced a little bit but I would not go as hard as that. We lost Buckley, Clement and Licuria last year and Wakelin and Lonie already this year with the possibility of Burns, Holland, R. Shaw and Johnson to go also. That's a lot of experience gone so we will need some to stick around to help out.

I have the feeling Burns will go - he has 5 job offers for an assistant role so may be looking at his next career. That said, I am sure the offers will still be there the end of next year. If Burns does retire then we need O'Bree to go on and help Stanley and any other inside mids we grab come through. I agree we need to phase O'Bree out but we are going to need some experience to help all these young kids.

Looking to next year, we need Presti to stay fit to help Brown, O'Brien and Ben Reid (from MM's statements on the weekend) in the backline. We also need to draft/trade another KPB or hope Thoolen is that player. At the end of next year, all things going well, Presti can retire.

Up front, we need Rocca to play as many games as possible and be there to develop Dawes and Anthony and allow Travis to keep doing what he is doing. Rusling and Macaffer there to provide injury back-up or force their way in through strong VFL form.

Forget about trading Fraser. He may not be the best ruckman in the AFL but at the moment he is the best we have. Wood needs to have the pre-season of his life and be given the opportunity to 1st ruck from the start of the year with Josh as his back-up and roaming forward. I think we all know Bryan is not the answer but he needs to stay on as insurance as Keefe will not be ready.

We do not need wholesale changes. With Wakelin, Lonie, Johnson, Egan, Iles and maybe R. Shaw and Burns going, we will elevate Wellingham and Macaffer and still have 3-4 picks at minimum. With such a young list already, I think they are all the picks we need. We may not wing a flag next year but I think we still have enough to make the 8 and challenge for Top 4. There is no need to bottom out or take a major step backwards.

 

[FuManchu]

we are going just fine, we have been depleted by injuries and self imposed bans for the last 2 years, we have introduced 14 new players in that time with most making a significant impact in those 2 years.add rusling rocca reid didak shaw burns prestigiacomo to that side against st kilda and we win easily.everyone is going on about how good st kilda played but we had 6 more scoring shots and our disposal was as bad as its been all year.another quality midfielder wouldnt go astray but with a side with an average age of 23 we are definately on the up

Its got nothing to do with injuries and bans, it has a lot to do with the mentality of hanging on to players after your opportunity has shut closed.

We have been up in relative terms for 3 years now and we are holding onto KPP who wont be there for the next serious tilt. This time next year, teams like carlton and Richmond will be ahead of us and we will still be stuck in the rut of fraser in the ruck, a midfield that is slow, doesnt run the lines, plays out wide and no real Key backmen. We are slowly going backwards in our structure.

The young blokes we have now, still need another 2 years, so why not accept the pain for the next 2 years, trade away some of the value that is not going to take us to the next step, or at least find new roles for them on-field ( ie Fraser) and be ready for a serious crack in a few years.

if anyone thinks next year we will be better, have a look at the areas where we fall down and see what is coming thru or not coming thru in those areas and compare them to some of the clubs on the rise.

I think a lot were deluded by the fact that we got close to a GF last year. When the reality of that is that we match up well against one team that is at the very top. Thats all that is, we match up well against Geelong. We have forgotten that to get to that same game again, we have to beat teams with whom we dont match up too well against. If we had beaten St Kilda, we would have gotten flogged by Hawthorn. We dont have any effective match ups for a dynamic tall player.

Stop deluding yourselves on the basis that we are fortunate enough to match up well against one team.

 

[Bloben]

Carlton and Richmond will place above us next year.

I disagree. Carlton and Richmond are building a quality core of players and will improve in the next few years however I don't see them turning into a top 4 side next season.

 

[robertg22]

can I ask a few questions.

How long is your coaches contract for, and do yo think he is safe for next season?

Contracted until the end of 09. I think he may see that deal out and barring some kind of miracle that'll probably be it.

 

[FuManchu]

I disagree. Carlton and Richmond are building a quality core of players and will improve in the next few years however I don't see them turning into a top 4 side next season.

You're assuming we will, they will both be in the 8, we probably will struggle to make the 8.

I said at the start of this year, we were around 5th to 6th, I wasnt far wrong. We have nothing that will propel us further up the ladder next year. The older players will at best keep us therabouts, the younger players not yet seasoned enough to push us forward.

Next year, with two clubs definitley on the rise and us remaining relatively stagnant, we will be 8th or 9th. And add in the fact that we are inconsistant. Not just this year, but last year and even the year before.

Presti, Burns, Rocca and even fraser in his present role and output will not take us into the top 4. For starters, none of those have any pace which we lack and secondly they are old and will be again one year older and injuries dont dissapear as you get older. They have been of so little value to us this year, what is the point of keeping them?

 

[smiddaz123]

Isn't Mick Contracted for 2010? I thought he was?

 

[mdc]

Next year, with two clubs definitley on the rise and us remaining relatively stagnant, we will be 8th or 9th. And add in the fact that we are inconsistant. Not just this year, but last year and even the year before.

Before this year Freo were "definitely on the rise".

Richmond, for one, are being greatly overrated. Will happily bet against them making the finals. The most credible threat IMO will come from Brisbane (although they'll have to overcome Voss' dudness), Port Adelaide (simply because I have a lot of respect for Williams as a coach) and Carlton (who still have too many holes to do anything of note, plus they were very lucky with injuries this year).

 

[Bloben]

You're assuming we will, they will both be in the 8, we probably will struggle to make the 8.

I said at the start if this year, we were around 5th to 6th, I wasnt far wrong. We have nothing that will propel us further up the ladder next year. The older players will at best keep us therabouts, the younger players not yet seasoned enough to push us forward.

Next year, with two clubs definitley on the rise and us remaining relatively stagnant, we will be 8th or 9th. And add in the fact that we are inconsistant. Not just this year, but last year and even the year before.

Presti, Burns, Rocca and even fraser in his present role and output will not take us into the top 4. For starters, none of those have any pace which we lack and secondly they are old and will be again one year older and injuries dont dissapear as you get older. They have been of so little value to us this year, what is the point of keeping them?

Yes I am assuming we will be better in 2009.

I saw our greatest strength in 08 as our emerging youth. I also saw our greatest weakness as our emerging youth. We were far too inconsistent and likely to play like dogs and lose to sides like Carlton, Essendon etc where we should have put them away. I see the inconsistency being that we are inexperienced and haven't learnt how to win when not at 100%.

I assume and expect the younger guys to take a good look at themselves in the off season and address this. We have blooded a lot of kids and I expect them to continue to introduce more youth. We need some of the older kids like Pendles to take the next step in becoming an on-field leader.

We have a few holes that must be addressed. We need a classy midfielder and hope that something happens trade week. We also need to look to get a KPP defender.

If we address these areas I would think we should be a contender in a few years and make the top 4 in 2009

 

[ant22]

I cant believe what I am reading. This side managed to finish 6 and almost all of our key players this year are 25 or under.

Other than Burns who's role was reduced a little this year anyway all of our key players that had an impact this year have loads of footy left.

Rocca and presti had little or no impact this year so our 6th was without them anyway. Wakelin was playing a bit part and with the expected continued development of brown, obrien and goldsack with with Anthony a possibility of going back our backline with be better next year with or without both presti and wakelin.

We have potentionally a sensation forward line in the making with cloke, reid, rusling, didak, dawes, davis, medhurst and anthony. Hopefully dick recovers well from his knee to give us another option.

Our midfield does need work but if we can add a cousins and another good midfielder and get continued development from wellingham and mccarthy it will be alot better. The 4th year is the year alot of talented players really step up(see deledio and griffen this year) I would expect both pendlebury and thomas to take the biggest step of their careers next year. If fit they will play major roles and have a massive impact on our midfield.

I for one am bloody excited about the next few years. I do not believe I am deluded and I think if we can improve our midfield depth with a bit of luck we have a real chance at a flag in the next 3 years.

Its not time to take a step backwards.

 

[FuManchu]

Before this year Freo were "definitely on the rise".

Richmond, for one, are being greatly overrated. Will happily bet against them making the finals. The most credible threat IMO will come from Brisbane (although they'll have to overcome Voss' dudness), Port Adelaide (simply because I have a lot of respect for Williams as a coach) and Carlton (who still have too many holes to do anything of note, plus they were very lucky with injuries this year).

In the space of one year, two of those clubs have made great leaps and bounds, we actually remained stagnant and our inconsistant football hasnt improved.

If they continue to improve and in ladder terms they are not that far behind us, they will easily overtake us. Remembering that one of those sides easliy beat us twice this year. And they wont be the only ones eyeing a spot in the 8.

What are Collingwood going to do next year to overcome the massive deficiencies we have in the midfield? The rucks and KPP backmen?

As it stands putting old players back into those roles and that includes Rocca at FF or CHF will do nothing other than make the team structure prone because of continual injury issues to older players, it will stop the advancement of any potential youth getting on field experience and it will keep us slow.

Unless those players can guarantee they will advance the cause next year, why play them. We aren't going to win the flag next year, so if that is the case why dont you put in new players that will be there for the next time you are in contention? All this crap about on field experience IS a lot of crap. Hawthorn did the hard yards a few years back, blooding new players and keeping very few of the old guard. They didnt suffer.

Mind you, a lot of this still boils down to Malthouse and his intransigence. His stubborn refusal to see the defficiencies for years, or address them. Can anyone tell me why we still have a midfield with O'bree in it? Why we dont have one midfield player that runs the lines? It is either his game plan which involves chip chip chip or it is his lack of recogntion that you need to use the corridor more effectively when you have players like Cloke and Rocca. Why go the flanks when you have two power forwards? Why go the flanks when one of your power forwards benefits with the quick ball in rather than allowing the opposition time to flood back?

 

[ksardog]

deluding myself hey get a grip no other side in the top 8 has had the injuries or drama that we have.we are a young side and with that comes inconsistency and when we lost to st kilda that pissed me off just as much as it obviously did u, and i agree that we would have been beaten easily by hawthorn the following week but if u take out the quality of player we had missing every side would have struggled.our future goal to goal line [ brown reid pendlebury cloke rusling ] is as exciting as its ever been.we just need wood to become the ruckman we all hope he will be and add a couple of quality midfielders.no need to get into hysterics about rebuilding we have gone through that process in the past couple of years and were good enough to make the finals the past 2 years.​

 

[tess]

Carlton and Richmond will place above us next year.

So you think we will finish 10th?