Mystery Time travellers

[MaddAdam]

Without wanting to get too into the physics and that, given I'm not smart enough to understand it - just a humble ass motherfarker with a big ass dick - but isn't the idea of time travel kind of superseded by the notion of infinite universes?

In that yes, people could appear to "time travel" but, ah, shit, I dunno.

For me time travel falls down on the Marty McFly principle, which is hard to argue with - could you root your own Mum and then be your own Dad?

 

[grizzlym]

Without wanting to get too into the physics and that, given I'm not smart enough to understand it - just a humble ass motherfarker with a big ass dick - but isn't the idea of time travel kind of superseded by the notion of infinite universes?

In that yes, people could appear to "time travel" but, ah, shit, I dunno.

For me time travel falls down on the Marty McFly principle, which is hard to argue with - could you root your own Mum and then be your own Dad?

The thing to remember about time travel, or this is what I remind myself, it's very hard to get our around the paradoxes, let alone the notion of how it can be done. Theoretically.

However, the notion of us inhabiting a round planet, not a flat one that sat in the middle of space was a similar proposition to people hundreds of years ago.

Our thinking, to a certain extent, is framed by our limitations and what we know to be real.

To digress, the question what is time is also a good one.

 

[The_Todd07]

Time travel.....Really interesting topic. I was searching photos and found this

I have a few problems with this,

1. Im not experienced on photo editing but something tells me that the best of the best could pull this off.
2. Wouldn't anyone around them wonder what the hell this bloke is doing.

You do a quick search on the net and there is threads on military sites working on such thing. Crazy stuff if true

I'm pretty sure that photo has been proven to be genuine

There may be a perfectly reasonable explanation for his attire, but he certainly was there

 

[grizzlym]

I'm pretty sure that photo has been proven to be genuine

There may be a perfectly reasonable explanation for his attire, but he certainly was there

It has to my satisfaction.

He just looks like a fish out of water. And the explanation basically goes 'people looked like that, wore sunglasses like that, wore clothes like that' it's just that he's surrounded by people dressed in gear you immediately associate with the era. Cultural framing, again. He looks out of place, but he isn't.

 

[MaddAdam]

The thing to remember about time travel, or this is what I remind myself, it's very hard to get our around the paradoxes, let alone the notion of how it can be done. Theoretically.

However, the notion of us inhabiting a round planet, not a flat one that sat in the middle of space was a similar proposition to people hundreds of years ago.

Our thinking, to a certain extent, is framed by our limitations and what we know to be real.

To digress, the question what is time is also a good one.

Yep, entirely agree. That's why I'd never rule it out.

The way I think is that military tech is where this stuff happens.

And the Soviets were actually the most advanced in military tech. But having had to actually fight and win the most brutal war in human history their research was more based in "battlefield" technology. This is why Russian weaponry, even allowing for the slump in spending from the the late 80s until Putin ramped it up again, is the best in the world - their anti ship missiles and torpedoes for example.

But the Americans have the resources and the crazy vision to genuinely research the really mind bending stuff. The Men Who Talk At Goats type of stuff.

And given that experimental US military tech is generally 30 - 50 years "ahead" of what we consider normal, who knows what they are up to.

 

[MaddAdam]

It has to my satisfaction.

He just looks like a fish out of water. And the explanation basically goes 'people looked like that, wore sunglasses like that, wore clothes like that' it's just that he's surrounded by people dressed in gear you immediately associate with the era. Cultural framing, again. He looks out of place, but he isn't.

Looks to me like he's blind. Just his body language. Which would explain the sunnies etc.

 

[grizzlym]

Yep, entirely agree. That's why I'd never rule it out.

The way I think is that military tech is where this stuff happens.

And the Soviets were actually the most advanced in military tech. But having had to actually fight and win the most brutal war in human history their research was more based in "battlefield" technology. This is why Russian weaponry, even allowing for the slump in spending from the the late 80s until Putin ramped it up again, is the best in the world - their anti ship missiles and torpedoes for example.

But the Americans have the resources and the crazy vision to genuinely research the really mind bending stuff. The Men Who Talk At Goats type of stuff.

And given that experimental US military tech is generally 30 - 50 years "ahead" of what we consider normal, who knows what they are up to.

The Project Montauk conspiracy theories are the manifestation of this US military style time project. It's all connected back to the alleged Philadelphia Experiment.

Several whistleblowers have come forward with dubious assertions about the alleged program.

Prominent UFO figure Jacques Vallee does a good debunking of the whole thing.

http://www.scientificexploration.org/journal/jse_08_1_vallee.pdf

Vallee is an interesting figure in Ufology, byt the way.

Here's some information on Project Montauk.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Montauk_project

Probably a thread in itself!

 

[MaddAdam]

The Project Montauk conspiracy theories are the manifestation of this US military style time project. It's all connected back to the alleged Philadelphia Experiment.

Several whistleblowers have come forward with dubious assertions about the alleged program.

Prominent UFO figure Jacques Vallee does a good debunking of the whole thing.

http://www.scientificexploration.org/journal/jse_08_1_vallee.pdf

Vallee is an interesting figure in Ufology, byt the way.

Here's some information on Project Montauk.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Montauk_project

Probably a thread in itself!

Of all the US "conspiracy" style stuff that I find genuinely interesting is the HAARP stuff.

What exactly are they up to with that?

(The reality being of course the most effective weapons in intelligence work are a smart woman with big cans and the ruthless but inoffensive man)

 

[grizzlym]

Of all the US "conspiracy" style stuff that I find genuinely interesting is the HAARP stuff.

What exactly are they up to with that?

(The reality being of course the most effective weapons in intelligence work are a smart woman with big cans and the ruthless but inoffensive man)

For me, this all stems back to the belief that the Nazis were harnessing exotic technologies, somehow connected with the occult.

Then, of course, the story goes the Americans shipped all these Nazi scientists to the US after the war en-mass, and they continued their research.

Hence Von Braun continuing the V2 program, which morphed into the space program and NASA. That's true but.

Point being, so the conspiracy theories go, the US suddenly started all these exotic programs with weird militarised experiments like time travel and the like just after the war.

 

[MaddAdam]

For me, this all stems back to the belief that the Nazis were harnessing exotic technologies, somehow connected with the occult.

Then, of course, the story goes the Americans shipped all these Nazi scientists to the US after the war en-mass, and they continued their research.

Hence Von Braun continuing the V2 program, which morphed into the space program and NASA. That's true but.

Point being, so the conspiracy theories go, the US suddenly started all these exotic programs with weird militarised experiments like time travel and the like just after the war.

Yeah, the Nazis were on some respects more technogically advanced than anyone else.

They did after all deploy the first combat jet aircraft, the first (and last) rocket powered aircraft and the first true ballistic missiles. There's a very strong argument that had the R+D and manufacturing teams not been ******ed by the political leadership those weapons would have have made more of a difference, and we would have seen more developments.

At the same time they were barking up entirely the wrong tree with their nuke program. So they weren't guided by Azrael or whatever.

War is the ultimate crucible of technological progress. For example, the Owen gun as invented by a humble Australian in about two months proved to be the most effective jungle fighting personal weapon of the war. Was still used into Vietnam. You could take an Owen gun into the ratfights in the backstreets of Homs now and hold your own.

By about 44/45 when the war was effectively over the US and the Soviets had different priorities and different resource bases. The Americans had cracked the wonder of the Manhattan Project which then gave them this sense that "anything is possible". And they were also desperately aware that the in a straight ground fight, the Russians would roll them. Hence the the almost Nazisque pursuit of wunderwaffen, as you say, guided by the thinking of captured and happily compliant Nazi war engineers.

One of the little spoken facts of WWII is that pretty much none of the true game changing advances were American - it was the Germans and the Brits who made all the real advances in stuff like jet propulsion, radar, sonar, cryptography, information technology, rocket technology etc. Even Ivan got in on the act with sloped armour and reactive charges to protect tanks.

Hence the American desire to grab all the best brains they could after. But the Yanks were hugely good at PR.

 

[grizzlym]

Yeah, the Nazis were on some respects more technogically advanced than anyone else.

They did after all deploy the first combat jet aircraft, the first (and last) rocket powered aircraft and the first true ballistic missiles. There's a very strong argument that had the R+D and manufacturing teams not been ******ed by the political leadership those weapons would have have made more of a difference, and we would have seen more developments.

At the same time they were barking up entirely the wrong tree with their nuke program. So they weren't guided by Azrael or whatever.

War is the ultimate crucible of technological progress. For example, the Owen gun as invented by a humble Australian in about two months proved to be the most effective jungle fighting personal weapon of the war. Was still used into Vietnam. You could take an Owen gun into the ratfights in the backstreets of Homs now and hold your own.

By about 44/45 when the war was effectively over the US and the Soviets had different priorities and different resource bases. The Americans had cracked the wonder of the Manhattan Project which then gave them this sense that "anything is possible". And they were also desperately aware that the in a straight ground fight, the Russians would roll them. Hence the the almost Nazisque pursuit of wunderwaffen, as you say, guided by the thinking of captured and happily compliant Nazi war engineers.

One of the little spoken facts of WWII is that pretty much none of the true game changing advances were American - it was the Germans and the Brits who made all the real advances in stuff like jet propulsion, radar, sonar, cryptography, information technology, rocket technology etc. Even Ivan got in on the act with sloped armour and reactive charges to protect tanks.

Hence the American desire to grab all the best brains they could after. But the Yanks were hugely good at PR.

I've just read the Anthony Beever tome on WW2 and my over-arching conclusion of what decided the war (apart from blunders, decisions etc) was the Soviet ability to relentlessly throw soldiers at the advancing enemy. Their ability to fight, mobilise and scrap, was the single biggest factor.

Tanks, planes or bombs didn;t defeat the Nazis - their hubris and over-confidence met an enemy that wouldn't break and was prepared to sacrifice millions of their people in the defence of the motherland.

 

[MaddAdam]

I've just read the Anthony Beever tome on WW2 and my over-arching conclusion of what decided the war (apart from blunders, decisions etc) was the Soviet ability to relentlessly throw soldiers at the advancing enemy. Their ability to fight, mobilise and scrap, was the single biggest factor.

Tanks, planes or bombs didn;t defeat the Nazis - their hubris and over-confidence met an enemy that wouldn't break and was prepared to sacrifice millions of their people in the defence of the motherland.

Trying to stay on topic ... O mighty mod ... but the T-34 was one of the greatest technological advances of that war. A fast tank with a gun that could kill other tanks and had light armour that protected itself.

In terms of "reverse time travel", you could put a Red Army brigade from 1945 into the Syria fight now and those on the other side of the unpleasantness would be hard pushed to tell it from an Assad unit.

The weaponry is basically the same - the RPG7s they use are a one gen improvement on what the WWII guys had, the AKs are similar, the tanks are pretty similar.

Plus ca change etc.

This might not be the right thread but I reckon we are on the verge of one of the greatest changes in human affairs - as in next 100/200 years - which is the advance in military tech from "object throwing" to a far more insidious stage. As in, read your ****ing mind type of shit. or at least stop you using yours.

Let's be honest, a Preadtor drone is training an eagle to drop a rock on an enemy.

It isn't game changing. Unless it becomes truly autonomous.

 

[grizzlym]

Trying to stay on topic ... O mighty mod ... but the T-34 was one of the greatest technological advances of that war. A fast tank with a gun that could kill other tanks and had light armour that protected itself.

In terms of "reverse time travel", you could put a Red Army brigade from 1945 into the Syria fight now and those on the other side of the unpleasantness would be hard pushed to tell it from an Assad unit.

The weaponry is basically the same - the RPG7s they use are a one gen improvement on what the WWII guys had, the AKs are similar, the tanks are pretty similar.

Plus ca change etc.

This might not be the right thread but I reckon we are on the verge of one of the greatest changes in human affairs - as in next 100/200 years - which is the advance in military tech from "object throwing" to a far more insidious stage. As in, read your ******* mind type of shit. or at least stop you using yours.

Let's be honest, a Preadtor drone is training an eagle to drop a rock on an enemy.

It isn't game changing. Unless it becomes truly autonomous.

It was indeed. No question.

My point was I was often under the impressiont that the Americans decided the war and technology played a huge part.

But I've come to believe that the Soviet effort, the obscene expenditure of human life, just grimly fighting, a soldier to replace every fallen man, was a massive factor.

Re your second point: death via interface is the most efficient way to kill. It makes it easier for humans to kill humans because it introduces both physical and emotional distance.

Lt Colonel Dave Grossman's book On Killing details this very well.

Give a man a bomb, a sniper scope, artillery that spits shells out over miles, and killing is much easier than close up.

 

[MaddAdam]

It was indeed. No question.

My point was I was often under the impressiont that the Americans decided the war and technology played a huge part.

But I've come to believe that the Soviet effort, the obscene expenditure of human life, just grimly fighting, a soldier to replace every fallen man, was a massive factor.

Re your second point: death via interface is the most efficient way to kill. It makes it easier for humans to kill humans because it introduces both physical and emotional distance.

Lt Colonel Dave Grossman's book On Killing details this very well.

Give a man a bomb, a sniper scope, artillery that spits shells out over miles, and killing is much easier than close up.

Yes, agreed, but the evidence coming out from the drone pilots is they suffer PTSD at the same or even higher rates than F-16 pilots. So that "extension" thing kind of hits a wall. We're still at shooting big bombs long distances just like they did in 1916.

What I'm talking about is a "different" way of fighting. I have no idea what it will look like at the point end, but I'd be tipping it is about changing people's perceptions of what is happening at any given moment, most likely through advanced chemical warfare ... panic drugs, surrender drugs, confusion drugs etc.

 

[speedybundy]

The Charlie Chaplin one could be anything. The "phone" looks quite blocky and already outdated (my vision). This would suggest that we have already mastered time travel.

And would a time traveller walk around with such an advanced piece of technology so negligently?

Although I'm not physicist, I can't fathom how travelling to the past is possible. We could see into the past if were to travel (faster than the speed of light) far into space and had a powerful telescope, but staying on Earth and changing things that have already happened? Not to mention the danger associated with messing with time and resultant paradoxes.



I've heard this too that as you approach the speed of light, time slows around you. Even when your on an aeroplane, you'll be younger than had you not been on an aeroplane. This leads me to believe that travelling into the future is possible.

First let me just say people this looks like one of the most high quality discussion I've seen on Bigfooty, kudos.

Secondly Mr Scorpion I liked your post mainly for your name and avatar

Thirdly and back on topic, I remember reading somewhere that Stephen Hawking believes time travel is possible through sort of what you're talking about. Something about what you said of time going faster and slower in certain points of space, to the point that a person could go 60 years into Earth's future but only experience being away for say a year or two. I can remember Hawking saying however that he believe's time travel into the past is impossible.

 

[JuddsABlue]

Time moves slower around mass, so time moves extremely slow around black holes, it also movies slower on earth than it does in space. This was realised when clocks on satellites moved microseconds faster than clocks on earth, so now they are programmed to run a little off so they match with our clocks on earth

But would you still age slowly if you were able to nestle next to a black hole for a few years? I wouldn't think so, I'd think your cells would still die and age at the same pace. You may appear to live longer to the people observing you away from the mass of a black hole though, you're not actually getting any extra time in the bank

A practical experiment of travelling into the future would be to build a train and have it circle the earth at the speed of light where theoretically time would slow down inside the train, so the longer you stayed on the train the further you went into the future, until you got off at some random point aging slower than normal, travelling into the future

 

[TheKanga]

It has to my satisfaction.

He just looks like a fish out of water. And the explanation basically goes 'people looked like that, wore sunglasses like that, wore clothes like that' it's just that he's surrounded by people dressed in gear you immediately associate with the era. Cultural framing, again. He looks out of place, but he isn't.

Looks incredibly out of place, like he's from the 1990's at least.
Those sunglasses look modern as does his hairstyle and clothes...

Fasncinating!

 

[grizzlym]

And we get to John Titor.

I followed this when it broke back in 2000. A guy shows up on message boards claiming to be from the future.

Part Termintaor, part back to the Future, it was a brilliant story, and it soon had a life of its own.

The immersive nature of the story and following it on the website soon had people eagerly following it.

Worth a look - brilliant story.

here's the background off Wiki.

John Titor is the name used on several bulletin boards during 2000 and 2001 by a poster claiming to be a time traveler from 2036.[1]
In these posts, Titor made numerous predictions (a number of them vague, some quite specific[2]) about events in the near future, starting with events in 2004. He described a drastically changed future in which the United States had broken into five smaller regions, the environment and infrastructure had been devastated by a nuclear attack, and most other world powers had been destroyed.
To date, the story has been retold on numerous web sites, in a book, in a play, and the Japanese visual novel/anime Steins;Gate. Titor has also been discussed occasionally on the nationally-syndicated radio show Coast to Coast AM.[3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Titor

Here is the site dediacted to John Titor and his words from the future.

http://www.johntitor.com/

And here are a bunch of Youtube videos:

 

[JuddsABlue]

Probably going to spend a lot of time reading up on this bloke

Safe to say that in 2011 the USA is in a big civil war was a bit of a flop

Also noted he talked about using viruses to kill cancer which I remember hearing about lately

 

[Chameleon75]

Without wanting to get too into the physics and that, given I'm not smart enough to understand it - just a humble ass motherfarker with a big ass dick - but isn't the idea of time travel kind of superseded by the notion of infinite universes?

In that yes, people could appear to "time travel" but, ah, shit, I dunno.

For me time travel falls down on the Marty McFly principle, which is hard to argue with - could you root your own Mum and then be your own Dad?

your refering to paradox. A common paradox is the grandfather paradox go back in time and shoot your grandfather before he met your grandmother, therefore you would never be born, therefore you couldnt have gone back in time to shoot your grandfather.

Physics doesnt allow for paradox, effect cannot proceed cause. So you cant go back in time to a peroid prior to a time machine being invented otherwise the effect preceeds the cause, of course enstein says you cannot go back in time.

Einsteins theories on relativity allows for forward travel by altering the space time continuum, but doesnt allow for backward time travel.

then quantam mechanics came along and everyone got excited about worm holes, and although they exist they do in the quantum foam, are infinitesimally small and exist for an infinitesimally small time frame. A smart guy called hawkins demonstrated that this was due to a feed back of hawkins radiation, so therefore as soon as they appear they disapear, hawkings theorised that this was too prevent paradox.

Up shot is that backwards time travel no, forwards yes. In fact it occurs when you increase velocity, satellites time is quicker than on earth and need to be adjusted for gps coordinates.

 

[Chameleon75]

I'm pretty sure that photo has been proven to be genuine

There may be a perfectly reasonable explanation for his attire, but he certainly was there

read that his shirt was shown to be a football gurnsey of that time.

 

[little graham]

Great topic.

There is some great photos on the net all over the place of people in really old photos/situations wearing apparel that was not around in those days and holding/using items that were invented close to 50 years after which i will elaborate on after your thread is going!

Can't wait for the thread!

Like the guy at sunbury 72 using a mobile phone?

 

[Yianni]

First let me just say people this looks like one of the most high quality discussion I've seen on Bigfooty, kudos.

Secondly Mr Scorpion I liked your post mainly for your name and avatar

Thirdly and back on topic, I remember reading somewhere that Stephen Hawking believes time travel is possible through sort of what you're talking about. Something about what you said of time going faster and slower in certain points of space, to the point that a person could go 60 years into Earth's future but only experience being away for say a year or two. I can remember Hawking saying however that he believe's time travel into the past is impossible.

Yeah, I tend to agree that time travel backwards is impossible but we may be able to speed up forwards travel. This is of course that we are already travelling forward through time at a rate of 'one minute per minute'

Due to relativity we can change the speed that 'our' time elapses relative to other people's but as a few other posters have said you don't get any extra time in the bank so to speak, it just gets reallocated to a different date range.

The question of 'What is time?' is an interesting one, and one that we really probably haven't answered conclusively yet. My friend Matt has written a book on how he thinks that time doesn't exist and that all that happens is that things in the 3 spacial dimensions change.

So who'd go where? Would we all go forward to see if and when our teams win flags?

 

[Catfish Alley]

So who'd go where? Would we all go forward to see if and when our teams win flags?

Haha, surely you could think of something better than that?



Since you believe we can't go backwards then I don't think I'd go forward at all. I wouldn't want the people close to me to age or die while I stay exactly the same

 

[Yianni]

Haha, surely you could think of something better than that?

Since you believe we can't go backwards then I don't think I'd go forward at all. I wouldn't want the people close to me to age or die while I stay exactly the same

Is it really that bad to want to see flags? What about if I also added Gray's Sports Almanac?

I agree I wouldn't want to leave all my friends and loved ones behind. It'd be pretty lonely and selfish. But if I could pop back and forth like in Back to the Future I'd definintely save some plutonium for a North Melbourne premiership