Strategy Trade and List management Thread Part 6 (opposition supporters - READ posting rules before posting)

[doggies ftw]

Yep. I'm not saying Smith is a poor player or no chance of returning to the best footy that he has displayed in his past.

Just that ... consistently, it better to treat the players their form, and assume what is the best predictor for their future success is obviously their most recent form and not some distant form in the past.

If we're going by the default assumption that Smith will return to how good he was, then we need to be fair and equally apply that to every player, and also assume that they'll return to how good they were.

Will Jacob Hopper be one of the game's best onballers for Richmond for the rest of the season, like he has been in spurts at GWS? Nobody is saying that, because we are doing the common sense thing of judging him on his most recent form (obviously).

Im not going by the assumption he’ll return to his best im just saying that im loathe to judge him or anyone completely on their recent poor form (if they’ve shown better in the past) when the whole team has been on a similar decline and weve been such a poorly coached and run team.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

Im not going by the assumption he’ll return to his best im just saying that im loathe to judge him or anyone completely on their recent poor form (if they’ve shown better in the past) when the whole team has been on a similar decline and weve been such a poorly coached and run team.

But by your logic the very form that they've shown better in the past could be because of the opposite of everything in your post - the club was on an incline at the time, and it was such a well coached and run team then. Smith's better output in the past should also be loathe to judge for the same reasons you gave, if you can't judge his recent poor form.

You logically can't have it both ways. Either it matters for a player's form, or it doesn't.

 

[doggies ftw]

But by your logic the very form that they've shown better in the past could be because of the opposite of everything in your post - the club was on an incline at the time, and it was such a well coached and run team then. Smith's better output in the past should also be loathe to judge for the same reasons you gave, if you can't judge his recent poor form.

You logically can't have it both ways. Either it matters for a player's form, or it doesn't.

Yes I expect him to play better in a well coached and managed team, I’m not sure what your point is here? So in a good side he can play top 40 in the league football? Great?

 

[threenewpadlocks]

Yes I expect him to play better in a well coached and managed team, I’m not sure what your point is here? So in a good side he can play top 40 in the league football? Great?

Because if we hold your logic true there's literally no insight gained whatsoever in actually trying to see how good of a player he is if you throw out all of his play simply by the basis of wider team form. At some point you have to try and estimate how good of a player he is, in order to achieve things like determining how much money a team should pay him in the salary cap, rather than saying "because he's a good player in a good team and a bad player in a bad team, it's all too hard, we can't truly determine how good or bad of a player he actually is, we shouldn't judge any of it".

Also, it doesn't make much sense. There's plenty of players that have played well in a bad team or bad system, but you can't assume that they'll instantly become a good player in a good team. How would you look at Toby McLean's overall career, and "netural" player form, for example, when he played clealry his best footy for the club in bad teams that were "poorly coached" (Dogs late 2017-2018).

 

[doggies ftw]

Because if we hold your logic true there's literally no insight gained whatsoever in actually trying to see how good of a player he is if you throw out all of his play simply by the basis of wider team form. At some point you have to try and estimate how good of a player he is, in order to achieve things like determining how much money a team should pay him in the salary cap, rather than saying "because he's a good player in a good team and a bad player in a bad team, it's all too hard, we can't truly determine how good or bad of a player he actually is, we shouldn't judge any of it".

Also, it doesn't make much sense. There's plenty of players that have played well in a bad team or bad system, but you can't assume that they'll instantly become a good player in a good team. How would you look at Toby McLean's overall career, and "netural" player form, for example, when he played clealry his best footy for the club in bad teams that were "poorly coached" (Dogs late 2017-2018).

Man it’s not that deep, I’m just saying Im not judging players completely based on the last year in a poorly coached team where 90% of the list and multiple previously gun players have severely declined. That’s it. You don’t have to over analyse it you can judge him however you see fit, that’s my 2c on it that is literally it

 

[threenewpadlocks]

Man it’s not that deep, I’m just saying Im not judging players completely based on the last year in a poorly coached team where 90% of the list and multiple previously gun players have severely declined. That’s it. You don’t have to over analyse it you can judge him however you see fit, that’s my 2c on it that is literally it

You can't just back away from what you said because you don't like the logical implications of it being flawed. You can't treat Smith one way and other players not. Otherwise you should be saying we can't judge Ryan Gardner in a poorly coached team because his 2022 season was much better or whatever. You can't have it both ways.

 

[doggies ftw]

You can't just back away from what you said because you don't like the logical implications of it being flawed. You can't treat Smith one way and other players not. Otherwise you should be saying we can't judge Ryan Gardner in a poorly coached team because his 2022 season was much better or whatever. You can't have it both ways.

Again, and I quote “im loathe to judge him or anyone completely on their recent poor form (if they’ve shown better in the past)”

Im not sure if you’ve realised but we’re discussing Smith, not Gardner. Are you acoustically talented by any chance - You’re completely exhausting to communicate with my dude, Jesus

 

[threenewpadlocks]

Again, and I quote “im loathe to judge him or anyone completely on their recent poor form (if they’ve shown better in the past)”

Im not sure if you’ve realised but we’re discussing Smith, not Gardner. Are you acoustically talented by any chance - You’re completely exhausting to communicate with my dude, Jesus

Gardner has shown better in the past. He came 7th in our 2022 best and fairest (above Smith!).

Lets just take this B&F placing for what it is and accept Gardner's good 2022 form it is rather than trying to move the goalpoasts and pretend his 2022 form wasn't good or anything.

He then, like Smith, had declining form in 2023.

It's only fair to apply your logic of being loathe to judge anyone (your bolding) on their 2023 form, because of your quote, it was a poorly coached/run team.

So for you to be internally consistent, we should be fair to both Bailey Smith and Ryan Gardner, either they were good 2022 footballers whose 2023 form shouldn't be counted, or it should be.

Search results for query: gardner

www.bigfooty.com

Fair to say that you don't apply this standard to Ryan Gardner.

Maybe just acknowledge this instead of doubling down again.

 

[Merlins Revenge]

Anyone have any idea when we can expect Marra to sign on for a new deal?

 

[yebach]

Gardner has shown better in the past. He came 7th in our 2022 best and fairest (above Smith!).

Lets just take this B&F placing for what it is and accept Gardner's good 2022 form it is rather than trying to move the goalpoasts and pretend his 2022 form wasn't good or anything.

He then, like Smith, had declining form in 2023.

It's only fair to apply your logic of being loathe to judge anyone (your bolding) on their 2023 form, because of your quote, it was a poorly coached/run team.

So for you to be internally consistent, we should be fair to both Bailey Smith and Ryan Gardner, either they were good 2022 footballers whose 2023 form shouldn't be counted, or it should be.

Search results for query: gardner

www.bigfooty.com

Fair to say that you don't apply this standard to Ryan Gardner.

Maybe just acknowledge this instead of doubling down again.

Form fluctuates and is dependent on alot of variables.
Age, injury, positional change, different personal around them, instructions from the coach, etc.
But if form drops off across the board it would be logical to assume it's being caused by a specific issue......... like bad coaching.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

Form fluctuates and is dependent on alot of variables.
Age, injury, positional change, different personal around them, instructions from the coach, etc.
But if form drops off across the board it would be logical to assume it's being caused by a specific issue......... like bad coaching.

But it didn't drop off across the board.

We won 12 games and lost 11 in 2022.

We won 12 games and lost 11 in 2023.

The team's success was very similar, and a team's success is the sum of the parts of players' form.

For the loss of form of players like Smith and Gardner, we had other players improve their form, like our two best midfielders Bont and Libba, who had better seasons in 2023 than 2022.

 

[dergert]

Sam Wicks would be welcome for us imo.

As long as he doesnt stick any of our player's partners lol

 

[adogsfan5]

And that’s why I was ridiculed when I said I wanted Esava Ratugolea

27

Esava Ratugolea

Age

25

Ht

197cm

Wt

108kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

8.6

2star

K

4.8

2star

HB

3.8

3star

M

2.7

3star

T

2.2

4star

MG

131.6

2star

D

8.1

2star

K

4.3

2star

HB

3.9

3star

M

2.1

2star

T

2.5

3star

MG

109.0

2star

D

9.2

3star

K

5.0

2star

HB

4.2

4star

M

4.0

4star

T

2.2

4star

MG

133.8

3star

.

Now it makes sense.

 

[out of finals]

Hearing a bit of buzz about Busslinger heading back to WA - anything in this?

 

[dergert]

Hearing a bit of buzz about Busslinger heading back to WA - anything in this?

Itk?

 

[Lindsay_Gilbee]

Said it when Josh asked for a trade, if he has a problem with how some of our players behave then he’s better off finding another career. Because players party at every club, maybe he can start a club with all his other boring as bat s**t family members.

Shame, he’s a bloody good footballer. Just an absolute wet blanket of a bloke.

 

[adogsfan5]

Said it when Josh asked for a trade, if he has a problem with how some of our players behave then he’s better off finding another career. Because players party at every club, maybe he can start a club with all his other boring as bat s**t family members.

Shame, he’s a bloody good footballer. Just an absolute wet blanket of a bloke.

“Josh wanna come to the states - end of season boys trip?”

“Yeah I’m keen mate, but I only wanna go to the sports matches, strictly no partying”,

 

[dogwatch]

Hearing a bit of buzz about Busslinger heading back to WA - anything in this?

Who knows, but these rumours tend to start with just about every WA draftee when they begin to show the slightest bit of form playing in the eastern states.

I wouldn't worry too much about it just yet.

 

[Munnez]

Wouldn’t take Dunks back even if he came for free. The only Ostrich with his “head in the sand” is Dunkley and Dunkley Snr thinking that all football clubs don’t have various forms of culture issues.

He left us and gave us a hard swipe on culture issues on the way out, and yes, certain players of ours most certainly enjoyed to much booze and Peruvian marching powder, but to play it off like it was just a Dogs thing was comical.

Let’s see if his a man of his word and now requests another trade due to “culture” issues.

Money cures all evils! Nothing too see here move along

 

[cleveland]

 

[yebach]

But it didn't drop off across the board.

We won 12 games and lost 11 in 2022.

We won 12 games and lost 11 in 2023.

The team's success was very similar, and a team's success is the sum of the parts of players' form.

For the loss of form of players like Smith and Gardner, we had other players improve their form, like our two best midfielders Bont and Libba, who had better seasons in 2023 than 2022.

I meant players form. Not games won or lost. Which also has a lot of variables. Who you're playing, do you or they have any injuries, where you're playing, do their players or game plan match up well with ours.
You mentioned Libba and Bont, they probably have a 5% - 10 % fluctuation in form across their entire careers.

 

[adogsfan5]

Heard this morning that we’ve enquired about Will Phillips at North. Not sure how invested we are, all I was told is we are monitoring and have spoken to his manager.

 

[Mojorisin]

Heard this morning that we’ve enquired about Will Phillips at North. Not sure how invested we are, all I was told is we are monitoring and have spoken to his manager.

Is very much on the outer at roos. Wouldn't be suprised if he was elsewhere next year.

 

[Munnez]

Heard this morning that we’ve enquired about Will Phillips at North. Not sure how invested we are, all I was told is we are monitoring and have spoken to his manager.

Always going to happen to some of the mids that they stockpiled. If they weren't playing they will look elsewhere for opportunities.

 

[adogsfan5]

Always going to happen to some of the mids that they stockpiled. If they weren't playing they will look elsewhere for opportunities.

Plus we need to somewhat keep building our midfield too I guess!