Transgender

[Gralin]

Discussion continuing in Part 2 found here

Transgender - Part 2

Please be aware that the tolerance of anti-trans language on BF is at an all-time low. Jokes and insults that are trans-related, as well as anti-trans and bigoted rhetoric will be met with infractions, threadbans etc as required. It's a sensitive (and important) topic, so behave like...

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[DemonTim]

As I have my point.

Yes, to which I'm responding.

It's just discrimination against a different group

 

[kirsti]

Yes, to which I'm responding.

It's just discrimination against a different group

So now you are calling me out for discrimination against trans people what was your view on male to female transgender athletes competing in women's sport again?

 

[kirsti]

A m

So a trans woman should have to compete against men, despite not being a man?

That's a dangerous attitude.

prior to their transition yes.

 

[DemonTim]

So now you are calling me out for discrimination against trans people what was your view on male to female transgender athletes competing in women's sport again?

I'm not claiming I'm not discriminating. I never have. It was in response to you saying that sports are obliged to cater to minorities. It was to show that realistically you are discriminating like most here. Just based on different grounds.

A m prior to their transition yes.

So a transgender woman, living as a woman, should be treated as a man?

 

[ClokesShankedIt]

Have you read Joanna Harpers findings she acted as a referral to the OIC she is a scientist and trans athlete. She performed studies on 8 trans athletes and her findings were very interesting.

Then the study is worthless. She studied herself and drew interesting (read: favourable) outcomes.

Every time you look at this trans debate you find pseudoscience.

 

[kirsti]

I'm not claiming I'm not discriminating. I never have. It was in response to you saying that sports are obliged to cater to minorities. It was to show that realistically you are discriminating like most here. Just based on different grounds.


So a transgender woman, living as a woman, should be treated as a man?

I never said that putting words in my mouth again?

 

[kirsti]

Then the study is worthless. She studied herself and drew interesting (read: favourable) outcomes.

Every time you look at this trans debate you find pseudoscience.

She studied 8 other trans athletes as well.

 

[DemonTim]

I never said that putting words in my mouth again?

It was a question? I never claimed you said it, I'm asking you to clarify if that's where you stand.

Do you see how your attitude is discrimination though?

 

[Brunswick Trap King]

Then the study is worthless. She studied herself and drew interesting (read: favourable) outcomes.

Every time you look at this trans debate you find pseudoscience.

Pseudoscience is the intersectionalist's favourite weapon against logic.

If not pseudoscience, then they employ their 'feels'.


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[ClokesShankedIt]

She studied 8 other trans athletes as well.

Did she stop being transgender while she was doing it?

 

[DemonTim]

Did she stop being transgender while she was doing it?

Do you discount any study on males by a male?

 

[ABSOLUTE MADMAN]

It is interesting that Kirsti trying take a more balanced perspective(considering their personal situation) has left them abandoned by Gough(aka as real as gravity and you are a homophobe if you disagree) et al in this discussion.

The fact that the only declared trans person(who is also a participant in womens sport) in this thread is heavily against the current AFL policy on this issue and also against the current IOC policy should ring alarm bells but has not been given much attention by many on either side of the discussion in this thread.

 

[kirsti]

It is interesting that Kirsti trying take a more balanced perspective(considering their personal situation) has left them abandoned by Gough(aka as real as gravity and you are a homophobe if you disagree) et al in this discussion.

The fact that the only declared trans person(who is also a participant in womens sport) in this thread is heavily against the current AFL policy on this issue and also against the current IOC policy should ring alarm bells but has not been given much attention by many on either side of the discussion in this thread.

And I have been called out for discriminating against trans women.

 

[kirsti]

It is interesting that Kirsti trying take a more balanced perspective(considering their personal situation) has left them abandoned by Gough(aka as real as gravity and you are a homophobe if you disagree) et al in this discussion.

The fact that the only declared trans person(who is also a participant in womens sport) in this thread is heavily against the current AFL policy on this issue and also against the current IOC policy should ring alarm bells but has not been given much attention by many on either side of the discussion in this thread.

Because everytime I have attempted to bring this thread back to the subject I have been hit with transphobes. I suggest a respectful discussion on trans issues is beyond most BF Members.

 

[DemonTim]

And I have been called out for discriminating against trans women.

And you ignored it.

I'll ask again. Is saying that trans women pre surgery be treated as men on sporting fields, but post surgery they should be treated as women, not discrimination?

 

[DemonTim]

You should hear what I call them without the ban hammer dangling overhead.

Btw it's ok to admit that you lost that little joust. Make yourself better by making out with a straight bloke without allowing him some informed consent.

i lost? You've discounted all studies on trans if they are conducted by trans. Regardless of results because "they have a barrow to push". That's not how science works

Yes I'm sure you call them all sorts of things. Cowards hiding behind anonymity like to feel tough. Although the last bloke on here to spout crap like this was stupid enough to also advertise his business on big footy. He backed away pretty quickly.

 

[scoccerroos]

Who else can't compete in sports?

Anyone who doesn't meet the physical requirements or who don't possess the technical skills to compete.

She studied 8 other trans athletes as well.

8 is still an incredibly small sample size to be considered scientifically relevant at all.

 

[DemonTim]

Anyone who doesn't meet the physical requirements or who don't possess the technical skills to compete.


8 is still an incredibly small sample size to be considered scientifically relevant at all.

From what I can find most say a lot more research is needed before drawing a conclusion. So this is about right.

 

[kirsti]

And you ignored it.

I'll ask again. Is saying that trans women pre surgery be treated as men on sporting fields, but post surgery they should be treated as women, not discrimination?

when a trans person commences transition they are not immediately a female in the eyes of the law and also sporting bodies.

Certain criteria's are in place for both sport and changing gender markers to female. A pre op trans person with no hormonal treatment is still considered legally a male. Until a new birth certificate is granted they legally are still male. Socially I accept pre op trans women as women but I do not make the laws of this country. As for sport I once again dont believe male to female athletes should be allowed to compete as females without hormonal treatment including testosterone reduction.

 

[kirsti]

Anyone who doesn't meet the physical requirements or who don't possess the technical skills to compete.


8 is still an incredibly small sample size to be considered scientifically relevant at all.

That was only one study there are plenty others on the use of testosterone etc. The IOC 2003 Stockholm Consensus included both medical and sporting events experts that considered the merits of trans people competing at the Olympics.

 

[DemonTim]

when a trans person commences transition they are not immediately a female in the eyes of the law and also sporting bodies.

Certain criteria's are in place for both sport and changing gender markers to female. A pre op trans person with no hormonal treatment is still considered legally a male. Until a new birth certificate is granted they legally are still male. Socially I accept pre op trans women as women but I do not make the laws of this country. As for sport I once again dont believe male to female athletes should be allowed to compete as females without hormonal treatment including testosterone reduction.

And some sports determine completely differently to that, so why do you chose that point to draw the line?

But none of this answers the question posed.

If you consider a pre op trans woman as a woman why do you say she must compete against men if she wants to play sport? How is that different to saying that trans women should not be able to compete against women as other posters suggest?

 

[kirsti]

Because pre hormone treatment a physical advantage exists. I prefer the 2003 IOC policy as a minimum because I believe it takes more then 12 months to reverse the effects of male puberty.

I dont say she has to compete against men but she can if she wishes prior to transition just as I did at international level in two sports.

Trans inclusion in sport has recently taken a hammering with the less stringent requirements and I fear with the current policy trans athletes will dominate women's sport which will ultimately have an adverse affects on both women's sport and transgender inclusion in sport.

If you consider that I am discriminating against trans athletes I don't know.what more to say to you. At least I am trying to find a suitable balance for both trans and non trans athletes.

 

[DemonTim]

Because pre hormone treatment a physical advantage exists. I prefer the 2003 IOC policy as a minimum because I believe it takes more then 12 months to reverse the effects of male puberty.

I dont say she has to compete against men but she can if she wishes prior to transition just as did at international level in two sports.

So those that suggest a physical advantage exists post surgery are discrimating though?

You keep dancing around the question, why are you allowed to discriminate based on where you believe the line should be drawn?

So she should live as a woman at all times, except 6-8 Tuesdays, Thursdays and 2-4 Saturdays where she should be treated as a man?

 

[DemonTim]

This doesn't sound in adherence with the attitude that "sporting fields are obliged to cater to minorities"

 

[Brunswick Trap King]

This doesn't sound in adherence with the attitude that "sporting fields are obliged to cater to minorities"

The logical reasoning behind your questions is pretty impressive.

I think what Kirsti believes is that the line should be set at a level that stops someone from getting the best of both worlds ie playing in a women's league with a man's physique/testosterone.

Is that right, Kirsti?



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