Transgender

[Gralin]

Discussion continuing in Part 2 found here

Transgender - Part 2

Please be aware that the tolerance of anti-trans language on BF is at an all-time low. Jokes and insults that are trans-related, as well as anti-trans and bigoted rhetoric will be met with infractions, threadbans etc as required. It's a sensitive (and important) topic, so behave like...

www.bigfooty.com

 

[kranky al]

If crappy analogies is what we’re doing then allow me to correct it:

We have a plane that’s crashed. Before it crashed the pilot got on the radio said “I am deliberately crashing this plane because I intend to kill a bunch of people”. Most people respond to the event in a normal way - they condemn the murderer without caveat or hesitation and express some sort of sympathy for the victims. EXCEPT for one Andrew Tate fan who just keeps shaking his head and saying “I bet his wife is a massive campaigner.”

We’re not talking about an engineering disaster. We’re talking an event with a known cause: an individual made the decision to do a bunch of murders.

What if the reason that individual did this was that he lost access to meds that kept him stable

 

[SnakeMan86]

What if the reason that individual did this was that he lost access to meds that kept him stable

If someone needs medication to keep them "Stable" they shouldn't be flying planes to begin with. Or minutely, still flying a plane whilst not on them.

 

[ElectricG]

What if the reason that individual did this was that he lost access to meds that kept him stable

Then maybe you could argue some part of culpability on the part of the people who took his meds off the PBS or whatever. Personally I wouldn’t agree - I don’t think there’s anything that can excuse or explain away mass murder. But the argument does cohere. The guy should’ve declared it to his employer though.

In any case, when that info emerges Andrew Tate boy should feel like crap for grinding his ideological axe and trying to pin it on the nearest female. But he probably won’t.

 

[Seeds]

Fact is that in America, its much easier to get a hold of a firearm than it is to get access to proper mental health care.
White, black, straight, gay, trans, other... Fact is they premeditated and willingly walked into a school and shot and murdered innocent children. Don't give me they were bullied. Don't give me "oh if people were nicer".... Absolute trollop.

If it were deep down a resentment to how they were treated, they'd have shot up a pub during a sporting match, instead they shot up a school full of children.
Its not a Trans issue, its a mental health issue, and an American systemic issue

Its not just mental health. A lot of shooters recently have been motivated by political ideology that dehumanizes other groups that they then mass murder.

its both mental health and extreme political ideology and most importantly access to guns.

 

[SnakeMan86]

Its not just mental health. A lot of shooters recently have been motivated by political ideology that dehumanizes other groups that they then mass murder.

its both mental health and extreme political ideology and most importantly access to guns.

Personally I disagree, happy to have a differing opinion.
But personally, i'm of the opinion that someone who is going to perform something as heinous as mass murder is always going to do so and they just want a reason, so they hideor attach themselves behind a political ideology as an excuse to do so.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

If crappy analogies is what we’re doing then allow me to correct it:

We have a plane that’s crashed. Before it crashed the pilot got on the radio said “I am deliberately crashing this plane because I intend to kill a bunch of people”. Most people respond to the event in a normal way - they condemn the murderer without caveat or hesitation and express some sort of sympathy for the victims. EXCEPT for one Andrew Tate fan who just keeps shaking his head and saying “I bet his wife is a massive campaigner.”

We’re not talking about an engineering disaster. We’re talking an event with a known cause: an individual made the decision to do a bunch of murders.

Call it human engineering. I actually agree with you on the optics - it does look bad in the immediate aftermath of a shooting massacre to identify with the perpetrator's struggles and not the victims/survivors.

What must go on in the background, by both actual experts in human engineering (psychologists and psychiatrists) and to a less important extent the brainstorming on discussion platforms such as this one, is going through what events led up to the massacre. We are far removed from the situation so speculation of course comes easy.

"Could the shooter have been put down a better path, and would those victims be still alive and those survivors not be dealing with the aftermath today? What can be done to stave off future events?"

Prevention, as always, is better than cure.

 

[kranky al]

Then maybe you could argue some part of culpability on the part of the people who took his meds off the PBS or whatever. Personally I wouldn’t agree - I don’t think there’s anything that can excuse or explain away mass murder. But the argument does cohere. The guy should’ve declared it to his employer though.

In any case, when that info emerges Andrew Tate boy should feel like crap for grinding his ideological axe and trying to pin it on the nearest female. But he probably won’t.

Do you think mentally healthy well adjusted humans murder each other?

 

[Gralin]

thinking the shooter discussion can probably move to the appropriate thread at this point

 

[aj1992]

These people not help thier cause .

https://www.news.com.au/sport/olympics/swimming/swimmer-riley-gaines-attacked-barricades-self-from-transgender-rights-activists/news-story/9da2dce1d34a14f5b6e3ffd7959630f4

 

[Boston tiger]

Hear hear - we should find out before they shoot anyone and punish them so thoroughly they never even dream of shooting sprees.

I think it’s more about stressing the point that killing children is never never never an option. We don’t want a martyr revenge mentality thing going.
Now don’t get your nickers knot but this is a very dire situation.
No one one is going to heaven and hell anymore so we need to be careful how we frame these tragedies.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

These people not help thier cause .

https://www.news.com.au/sport/olympics/swimming/swimmer-riley-gaines-attacked-barricades-self-from-transgender-rights-activists/news-story/9da2dce1d34a14f5b6e3ffd7959630f4

Interesting to note that Ms Gaines' appearance was organised by conservative youth organisation Turning Point USA. Are Riley's concerns genuine or is this just more divisive exclusionist bullsh*t from the conservative camp?

NOTE: Turning Point USA is somewhat notorious for their "School Board Watch List". In their own words;

"School Board Watchlist

The School Board Watchlist (SBWL) is America’s only national grassroots initiative dedicated to protecting our children by exposing radical and false ideologies endorsed by school boards and pushed in the classroom. SBWL finds and exposes school board leadership that supports anti-American, radical, hateful, immoral, and racist teachings in their districts, such as Critical Race Theory, the 1619 Project, sexual/gender ideology, and more. SBWL also provides information on how parents and students can get involved in their local school board and put an end to the racialization of the classroom.

It’s time for millions of Americans to stand up and take back our schools, demanding an end to the radical indoctrination of our children in the classroom.

School Board Watchlist is a project of Turning Point USA, a 501(c)3 non-profit organization."

EDIT: Original article mentioned Turning Point USA as well. I previously linked a CNN article that went over much the same ground.

 

[mcnulty]

Interesting to note that Ms Gaines' appearance was organised by conservative youth organisation Turning Point USA. Are Riley's concerns genuine or is this just more divisive exclusionist bullsh*t from the conservative camp?

NOTE: Turning Point USA is somewhat notorious for their "School Board Watch List". In their own words;

"School Board Watchlist

The School Board Watchlist (SBWL) is America’s only national grassroots initiative dedicated to protecting our children by exposing radical and false ideologies endorsed by school boards and pushed in the classroom. SBWL finds and exposes school board leadership that supports anti-American, radical, hateful, immoral, and racist teachings in their districts, such as Critical Race Theory, the 1619 Project, sexual/gender ideology, and more. SBWL also provides information on how parents and students can get involved in their local school board and put an end to the racialization of the classroom.

It’s time for millions of Americans to stand up and take back our schools, demanding an end to the radical indoctrination of our children in the classroom.

School Board Watchlist is a project of Turning Point USA, a 501(c)3 non-profit organization."

EDIT: Original article mentioned Turning Point USA as well. I previously linked a CNN article that went over much the same ground.

Regardless, I think it fair to suggest she shouldn’t have been assaulted.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Regardless, I think it fair to suggest she shouldn’t have been assaulted.

Yeah, that's fair. Disagreeing with sports exclusionists need not involve violence, as their main argument for better or worse should still depend on the notion of fairness alone. I myself think more study is needed at the elite level. At this stage I am an inclusionist for the intent of study and I think that the different variables of trans athlete (trans after puberty blocking vs trans at later stages of life, for example) deserve that chance of participating in a study at all levels of competition.

Inclusion until proof otherwise, in other words.

 

[mcnulty]

Yeah, that's fair. Disagreeing with sports exclusionists need not involve violence, as their main argument for better or worse should still depend on the notion of fairness alone. I myself think more study is needed at the elite level. At this stage I am an inclusionist for the intent of study and I think that the different variables of trans athlete (trans after puberty blocking vs trans at later stages of life, for example) deserve that chance of participating in a study at all levels of competition.

Inclusion until proof otherwise, in other words.

Yeah can’t agree with that. It’ll open up a massive can of worms for sporting organisations if they open it up and more study shows unfair advantages. I have no doubt FINA and the like are acting at least in part on legal advice too.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Yeah can’t agree with that. It’ll open up a massive can of worms for sporting organisations if they open it up and more study shows unfair advantages. I have no doubt FINA and the like are acting at least in part on legal advice too.

Surely this would put the 'fair/unfair advantage' question to bed though? Would trans athletes themselves argue for sports inclusion in the face of a comprehensive, scientifically proven advantage over cis-gendered athletes?

Keep in mind this is a question of sporting advantage, not human rights and their place in society in general. Conservatives will of course use it as a wedge issue ("if we can cut them off from THIS section of societal inclusion first, we can and will move onto excluding them from others later") but I think the question of unfair advantage is one of genuine concern. It should be addressed in that frame.

Even if they need to go case-by-case. "This individual who transitioned last year at 25 falls outside too many parameters to qualify. That individual who has been on puberty blockers and transitioned mid-teens falls within the set parameters and so qualifies"

If both sides accept that this question pivots solely on the centrepoint of fairness the wiggle room for politics to intrude lessens.

 

[mcnulty]

Surely this would put the 'fair/unfair advantage' question to bed though? Would trans athletes themselves argue for sports inclusion in the face of a comprehensive, scientifically proven advantage over cis-gendered athletes?

Keep in mind this is a question of sporting advantage, not human rights and their place in society in general. Conservatives will of course use it as a wedge issue ("if we can cut them off from THIS section of societal inclusion first, we can and will move onto excluding them from others later") but I think the question of unfair advantage is one of genuine concern. It should be addressed in that frame.

Even if they need to go case-by-case. "This individual who transitioned last year at 25 falls outside too many parameters to qualify. That individual who has been on puberty blockers and transitioned mid-teens falls within the set parameters and so qualifies"

If both sides accept that this question pivots solely on the centrepoint of fairness the wiggle room for politics to intrude lessens.

And how long do you imagine it will take before this is “put to bed”?

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

It would take at least a decade of trans athletes competing against both cis-gendered athletes and each other. Take everything into consideration, the recently transitioned, those on puberty blockers, intersex athletes. What's fair? What isn't? I myself don't know the parameters that would be arrived at, but rather than a 'They're different. Ban them!' blanket approach sporting bodies could arrive at an answer that was backed by hard science and not politics.

I know the other answer is 'Ban them until they prove themselves' but I don't know how fair that is either. At a non-elite level, still open to study, would it come down to what motivates each athlete? The trans athlete competes for inclusion and that is a powerful motivator, but what of the cis-gendered athlete? They'd know that beating transgender athletes would make their inclusion more likely. They'd know that losing at a regular rate to trans athletes might well ban them. Would the individual politics of the participants skew results? Would a conservative athlete throw a race? Would a trans athlete throw one? A progressive cis-gendered athlete?

I mean, I see trans athletes vs cis athletes at the elite level as meaning both would give it their all to be the best. Sure, races could be thrown here too but it's at the top level. A race thrown would mean so many years of effort and money invested are for naught. Study at lower levels cancels out that elite-level 'advantage' that any scientific serious study might benefit from.

As I see it, barring trans athletes from top-flight competition to only grade them for study at lower levels of competition may mean outside factors discolour the results.

 

[mcnulty]

It would take at least a decade of trans athletes competing against both cis-gendered athletes and each other. Take everything into consideration, the recently transitioned, those on puberty blockers, intersex athletes. What's fair? What isn't? I myself don't know the parameters that would be arrived at, but rather than a 'They're different. Ban them!' blanket approach sporting bodies could arrive at an answer that was backed by hard science and not politics.

I know the other answer is 'Ban them until they prove themselves' but I don't know how fair that is either. At a non-elite level, still open to study, would it come down to what motivates each athlete? The trans athlete competes for inclusion and that is a powerful motivator, but what of the cis-gendered athlete? They'd know that beating transgender athletes would make their inclusion more likely. They'd know that losing at a regular rate to trans athletes might well ban them. Would the individual politics of the participants skew results? Would a conservative athlete throw a race? Would a trans athlete throw one? A progressive cis-gendered athlete?

I mean, I see trans athletes vs cis athletes at the elite level as meaning both would give it their all to be the best. Sure, races could be thrown here too but it's at the top level. A race thrown would mean so many years of effort and money invested are for naught. Study at lower levels cancels out that elite-level 'advantage' that any scientific serious study might benefit from.

As I see it, barring trans athletes from top-flight competition to only grade them for study at lower levels of competition may mean outside factors discolour the results.

A decade? For the hard science? That sucks.

The rest of your post is extremely weird. I really have no idea what to make of it.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

A decade? For the hard science? That sucks.

The rest of your post is extremely weird. I really have no idea what to make of it.

You think you can measure competitive advantage in a year? I think you'd need far longer to collate all the data for a fair study. But fair enough, we're both entitled to an opinion.

As for the rest of my post being weird, how so? What do you need some help understanding? If I can explain myself a little better I will.

 

[mcnulty]

You think you can measure competitive advantage in a year? I think you'd need far longer to collate all the data for a fair study. But fair enough, we're both entitled to an opinion.

As for the rest of my post being weird, how so? What do you need some help understanding? If I can explain myself a little better I will.

Of course it would take longer than a year. But a decade is a long time to have women’s sport potentially compromised like that. Think of the fallout. The organisations are being rightly cautious here.

 

[Roobs321]

When I transitioned a dozen years ago, continuing in competitive sport was an easy sacrifice, the 'just not worth it' common sense.

I think there needs to be inclusion at recreational levels like in schools and community sport (you don't want kids or lonely people in the community to be excluded from the benefits of belonging and healthy activities, that's where diversifying optional alternative activities (i.e. for those with special needs or disabilities that limit participation) like simultaneous e-gaming or orienteering tournaments or something could help, or promoting team sports where gender isn't noteworthy), and the bad faith campaigners shouldn't be given any oxygen in those contexts. Separate trans categories are the sort of thing binary trans folk would immediately baulk at, would never take off. But when it comes to elite/contact/incentivised/rep I think 99% of trans people who transitioned after puberty would be like nah. It's just reality, you make a few sacrifices to transition and getting on the medal podium or something is the last thing you'd want to do to draw attention to yourself (especially if you were above-average sporty beforehand). 1% of trans people like in the regular population aren't like that, you give them an inch they'll take a mile (the becoming-trans-to-exploit-sport is a complete strawman though). It's often complicated in many circumstances, especially if your chosen sport is a big feature of your livelihood or social circle, but it's just the price of something more important like transition. The right-wing will always exaggerate the biological sporting difference given their innate sexism combined with transphobia (and US/UK hegemony doesn't help either), and biological sporting advantage is more relevant in some sports than others, but human rights and fairness aside it's also a matter of personal conscience and you just need to make the right call yourself. The testing restrictions on some trans athletes could be unhealthy for them long-term as well, when transition is often case-by-case and one size won't fit all.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Of course it would take longer than a year. But a decade is a long time to have women’s sport potentially compromised like that. Think of the fallout. The organisations are being rightly cautious here.

Yeah, I get you. The knack is finding that middle ground isn't it? Fairness is the ultimate outcome in sports, it's just how we arrive at it is the question.

 

[kranky al]

I feel that this is misrepresenting Kranky's point, which is essentially that there can be a mismatch (for lack of better term) between someone's physical sex (e.g. their genitals), and the gender which their brain is wired towards.

kranky al please correct me if I'm wrong. Out of curiosity though, what are your thoughts on gender roles & gender equality? Noting the difference between male and female brains.

Yes you are correct. Carringbush does that a bit, takes a point you make off on a tangent.


Vis a vis gender roles - Horses for courses.

If someone shows aptitude for something, let em go.

On the otherhand say in something specialised and life and death such as women in infantry, im totally against it.

The israelis have found great success in women being fighter pilots as they tend to have much better multitasking capability than men. Flying fighter planes - and aeroplanes in general is an exercise in mefga multitasking.

 

[kranky al]

I do not care what people do in their private lives ... they can do whatever they please ... whatever makes them happy, I'm all for it, screw whoever you want, call yourself whatever you want, go for the moon. However once you start telling me that I need to change my language,

Language changes all the time. Or dost thou disagree perchance.

mutilating the kids

The absolute vast overwhelming majority of kids that are mutilated are intersex babies that doctors make a captains call on.

And that margin is so high sportsbet paid out on it in 1926.

I hope you can be as totally furious about a child who has had zero say in the matter as you can about a child that has asked for it.

But somehow i doubt it.


Read more here: 'You can't undo surgery': More parents of intersex babies are rejecting operations

. Then there's the issue is sports,

Actually something where we can agree. I dont like seeing trans athletes that have benefitted from male genetics thrashing women in womens sports.

When i see women transition to men and compete in mens sports with the same success ill revisit this opinion.

This to me is one of the big issues that the movement shoots itself in the foot with. Its a complete own goal.

the list is endless. This stuff was butt off jokes only a few years ago, but here we are. This stuff is being normalised.

And you were clearly much happier when you could make jokes about people facing an absolute nightmare existence.

If i were a god id whack you in a chicks body tomorrow. Give you a few weeks to learn some humility and realise that rather than slagging people off who have a hard row to hoe, you should instead be thankful that your and your mums chemistry and endocrine systems worked in a nice neat binary fashion.

 

[Back One Out]

Fact is that in America, its much easier to get a hold of a firearm than it is to get access to proper mental health care.
White, black, straight, gay, trans, other... Fact is they premeditated and willingly walked into a school and shot and murdered innocent children. Don't give me they were bullied. Don't give me "oh if people were nicer".... Absolute trollop.

If it were deep down a resentment to how they were treated, they'd have shot up a pub during a sporting match, instead they shot up a school full of children.
Its not a Trans issue, its a mental health issue, and an American systemic issue

According to the right wing media, police in Colorado have prevented another school shooting / mass murder by arresting William Whitworth AKA "Lilly", a 19 year old who identifies as a woman.

William Whitworth, 19, arrested for allegedly planning mass shooting at former Colorado middle school​

William Whitworth, 19, arrested for allegedly planning mass shooting at former Colorado middle school

William Whitworth, 19, who prosecutors say identifies as Lilly, was taken into custody for allegedly plotting to shoot up Timberview Middle School in Colorado Springs, according to an arrest affida…

nypost.com

William Whitworth, who prosecutors say identifies as Lilly, was taken into custody by the Elbert County Sheriff’s Office on March 31 after it was discovered the 19-year-old had floor plans to Timberview Middle School and allegedly admitted to wanting to shoot up the school, according to an arrest affidavit...

Whitworth was originally paid a visit by deputies when the suspect’s sister called authorities to alert them she was lashing out and made school shooting references...

A spokesperson for the 18th Judicial District Attorney’s Office said that Whitworth was in the process of transitioning to a woman.

The planned school shooting was allegedly in the works for “a month or two,” Whitworth told sheriff’s investigators, and she was “about a third of the way from doing it,” the affidavit states

Part of the alleged plan also included listing firearms and how to 3D-print them and writing out a manifesto, which reportedly had the names of mass shooters and political commentators. Whitworth had a list of people “to be killed” in a notebook.

Authorities additionally found instructions on how to build bombs inside her room. No firearms were found in the suspect’s home

While the middle school was her “main target,” Prairie Hill Elementary and Pine Creek High School were also potential targets, all part of the Academy School District 20, according to the affidavit.

Whitworth was only at three District 20 schools, including Prairie Hills and Timberview, for about nine months combined, according to reports.

She is facing two counts of first-degree criminal attempt to commit murder, criminal mischief, menacing and interference with educational institutions, the 18th Judicial District Attorney’s Office said in a news release.

Bond was set at $75,000 with a hearing set for May 5.

Who Is William Whitworth? Trans Teen Arrested Over School Shooting Plot​

Who is William Whitworth? Trans teen arrested over school shooting plot

The 19-year-old former student was found to be plotting several shootings in the same Colorado Springs' school district, District 20.

www.newsweek.com

Colorado authorities arrested a 19-year-old former Colorado Springs student over plans to carry out multiple shootings in various schools in the area. The suspect, a trans teenager who's been identified by authorities as William Whitworth but who goes by the name "Lily," now faces attempted murder charges.

Whitworth was arrested by the Elbert County Sheriff's Office (ECSO) after deputies were alerted to a disturbance at 7:18 p.m. on March 31 by her sister, who reported that the suspect was exhibiting violent behavior and making threats of a school shooting. Deputies reportedly found her in bed and drunk, having punched holes in the wall.

A spokesperson for the 18th Judicial District Attorney's Office told The Gazette that Whitworth was in the process of transitioning from male to female, a detail that is likely to inflame a new controversy among rightwingers and conservatives, who, after the Nashville school shooting, have been lashing out at the trans community.

The suspect has been formally charged with two counts of criminal attempt to commit murder in the first degree; criminal mischief; menacing; interference with staff, faculty, or students of educational institutions and is currently in custody. In arrest documents, the suspect is referred to as she/her.

According to authorities quoted by local media, Whitworth was a former student of the Colorado Springs school district, having attended school in the area between 2014 and 2016. Police recovered a manifesto from her home where she reportedly mentioned mass school shooters and their casualty versus injury rate, detailed a list of firearms and how to 3D print them, and which contained locations of schools in Colorado Springs District 20.

The affidavit, obtained by Fox News, states that Whitworth told investigators that she was working on the school shooting plan for "a month or two" and was "about a third of the way from doing it." Her "main target" was Timberview Middle School, but Prairie Hill Elementary and Pine Creek High School were also potential targets, as well as churches in the area. All these schools are in District 20, one of Colorado Springs' largest school districts.


According to the affidavit, when asked by deputies why she was planning a shooting at the middle school, Whitworth replied: "No specific reason."







The silicon chip inside her head
Gets switched to overload
And nobody's gonna go to school today
She's gonna make them stay at home
And daddy doesn't understand it
He always said she was good as gold
And he can see no reasons
'Cause there are no reasons
What reason do you need to be shown?

- Bob Geldoff, 1979