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Transgender

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Discussion continuing in Part 2 found here

Transgender - Part 2

Please be aware that the tolerance of anti-trans language on BF is at an all-time low. Jokes and insults that are trans-related, as well as anti-trans and bigoted rhetoric will be met with infractions, threadbans etc as required. It's a sensitive (and important) topic, so behave like...
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Chief said:
The people I know directly took several YEARS before they started any actual medical intervention. Like, three years at least as far as I recall.

They aren't fronting up demanding drugs on day one.

Yet the conservative commentators focus on the medical intervention almost entirely.
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Well when had mobile billboards driving around Melbourne last year saying Dan Andrews was medially transitioning toddlers you know they're not worried about reality
 
ShanDog said:
Gender affirming care itself is a concept that originated out of medically unsubstantiated sociological research, as opposed to clinical trials which came much, much later and have also been found lacking.
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Telling a kid they can change their name, grow their hair, cut their hair, wear the school uniform of the opposite gender, none of that is medical.

Years later if the child still wants to transition and starts on medical care, that's up to them and their family and their medical practitioners.

As an aside, my son's school no longer requires girls or boys to wear any particular uniform items. Girls and boys can wear either or a mix of both. Mainly at pickup time I see girls preferring the boys trousers and shorts. I'm not sure how many trans kids attend the school but my son never mentions it and really it's not my business.
 
In one of my childs' classes, a 6 year old born female wanted to be a boy for about 6-9 months and was known by another name. Parents were very open about it and not at all fussed if they accidentally were called by their previous name.

Decided recently that they would like to be referred to by their original girls' name again and my child did not bat an eyelid. The kids know it's not a problem for people to be figuring out who they are.
 
Chief said:
Telling a kid they can change their name, grow their hair, cut their hair, wear the school uniform of the opposite gender, none of that is medical.

Years later if the child still wants to transition and starts on medical care, that's up to them and their family and their medical practitioners.

As an aside, my son's school no longer requires girls or boys to wear any particular uniform items. Girls and boys can wear either or a mix of both. Mainly at pickup time I see girls preferring the boys trousers and shorts. I'm not sure how many trans kids attend the school but my son never mentions it and really it's not my business.
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They aren't medical in the sense that you're making changes to physiology etc, but they are certainly associated with psychology, which is medical.
 

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ShanDog said:
They aren't medical in the sense that you're making changes to physiology etc, but they are certainly associated with psychology, which is medical.
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I may have this wrong but are you saying that social transition is a medical intervention?
 
Chief said:
I may have this wrong but are you saying that social transition is a medical intervention?
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Sort of, but not really. Like how trucks and cars are both vehicles. They are different but there's some overlap too.

Choosing to affirm gender with social transition is no different to choosing to do nothing as far as having psychological significance. Both choices obviously have different effects, but just like an AFL umpire, a non-decision is still an actual decision.

Given that psychology and wellbeing are medical issues (or at the very least, directly related to it), going down the path of social transition is a treatment. Whether you want to call it medical or non-medical is fairly immaterial because it doesn't change the fact that the decision to do so or not do so carries with it psychological effects. If they didn't, then nobody would feel the need to transition as it would do nothing for them psychologically.

I think social transition until a medical intervention needs to be decided on is a much better idea than early medical intervention. But we shouldn't pretend that isn't without potential consequence. Given the high rate of confounding psychological issues, the effects of social transition certainly need to be carefully considered for most kids.
 
The always impeccably researched Shaun:



In the video - which I have only watched a third of over lunch - Shaun goes into the myriad of lies and half-truths and equivocations of KJK.

This includes:

  • KJK's relentless single-issue politics and activism leading her to the far right. "I will stand beside the Devil himself" she says about the types of people she will align herself with in her campaigning.
  • KJK's open invitation to ANYONE to attend her anti-trans "Let Women Speak" rallies.
  • When KJK was informed weeks in advance that neo-Nazis would attend her Melbourne rally she was at first disbelieving, before immediately saying they are welcome to speak, and "we are welcome to turn our backs".
  • AFTER the fascists turned up and she became associated with them, she rejected the idea and even tried to sow doubt about their Nazi cred, claiming there was something "not right" and that she thought they might be plants - cops or something.
  • Support for Trump - he's the one who will get rid of all that transing that is going on.
  • Not a feminist, an anti-feminist, but exchanging support with supposed feminists who are happy to support her as long as they hate all this transing of kids that is going on everywhere.
  • General dislike from "academic" transphobes and anti-feminists for whom her single-issue campaigning was embarrassing and getting them associated with fascists.
  • Many, many times proudly accepting that she is transphobic... but facetiously because she wants the double dip of negating the idea that the "transphobe" label is serious, while appealing to people for whom transphobia is a daily practice. "Just joking! ;)"
  • Allying with anti-abortion extremists.
  • Among the other nasties she associates with, KJK's support from and to a woman who had a sexual relationship with a minor for whom she was formerly a counsellor - resulting in a pregnancy that the person called a gift from God. Flying in the face of KJK's "protect the kids from predators" line.
  • Jo Rowling's Tweets in support of KJK and the above-mentioned paedo - neither of which Rowling has recanted - while deleting Tweets praising former transphobes with whom she has fallen out. (There's a Rowling ep of Shaun as well which I might have posted. In this KJK video he also covers some Rowling issues not in that video.)

... and so on.

He digs up layer after layer of lies, hate, and hypocrisy from KJK and the people escorting her from the fringes of the anti-trans movement to a seat at the table with Rowling and all the American YouTube fanatics.

It's 2 hours so I might not even get through the whole thing.

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Gralin said:
Punch Nazis is a pretty common view.

TERFS are actively hate campaigning against trans peoples right to exist.

How dare they talk about fighting back...
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Aah yes, violence against women all fair and above board as far as Gralin is concerned. Why does this not surprise?
 
mcnulty said:
Aah yes, violence against women all fair and above board as far as Gralin is concerned. Why does this not surprise?
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You do realise that TERFs aren't just women yeah?

A lot of men like Glinner and Matt Walsh

But mainly I have no issues with people that are being oppressed fighting back
 
Yeah, I don't think a lot of politicians would side with that kind of language inciting violence. Unlike the nutters like KJK and her nazi friends who a Victorian parliamentarian stood alongside.

I guess if my rights were being denied, I'd probably want to punch the enablers of that in the face as well.

There's a Bill Burr bit where he says about how white people (US) today think they would have been actively fighting slavery if they were around during that era, but in reality of course they wouldn't they would mostly be sitting on the couch like they're doing.

Perhaps we're seeing the same thing here. Maybe we should be on this trans activists' side, fighting for her rights (maybe not violently, but at least more vocally).

I'm pretty sure in 20 years, I wouldn't regret being on the side aligned against the Nazis.
 
Saint said:
Yeah, I don't think a lot of politicians would side with that kind of language inciting violence. Unlike the nutters like KJK and her nazi friends who a Victorian parliamentarian stood alongside.

I guess if my rights were being denied, I'd probably want to punch the enablers of that in the face as well.

There's a Bill Burr bit where he says about how white people (US) today think they would have been actively fighting slavery if they were around during that era, but in reality of course they wouldn't they would mostly be sitting on the couch like they're doing.

Perhaps we're seeing the same thing here. Maybe we should be on this trans activists' side, fighting for her rights (maybe not violently, but at least more vocally).

I'm pretty sure in 20 years, I wouldn't regret being on the side aligned against the Nazis.
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I mean the nazis these people are happy to pose for photos with were carrying signs that read death to pedos.

The not so subtle context being gay people are the pedos.

Don't see that generating much outrage, but one of the people that sign was about suggesting they'd like to punch those people in the face apparently is too much.

Soft liberalism has broken our brains. Decades of talk of peaceful protests, when peaceful protests have never gotten it done.

The santisation of activism which works in the favour of the establishment has a lot to answer for
 
ShanDog said:
It's not uncommon for there to be anxiety, trauma, eating disorders, autism, and myriad other issues.
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Which sounds like a way - as Gralin said - to make out that being trans isn't real. The same sort of idea that means people with mental health issues can't be trusted as witnesses to their own abuse or assault.

A demand to prove that the issue at hand is NOT caused by something else before you can be believed. Eliminate everything else first even though we have plenty of examples of trans people without any of these things in their life.
 

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owen87 said:
That's a whole lotta obfuscation going on there Gralin.

It's fine to simply admit you're onboard with punching TERFs in the face. If they happen to be Nazi's great, if they happen to be women, oh well.
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Do you think all nazis are men?
 
owen87 said:
As I said, obfuscation.

You can simply just say you're fine with punching TERFs in the face. The whole Nazi thing you've added was unnecessary.
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I mean I'm fine with both being punched in the face.

The fact they're often the same person doesn't hurt the situation either.

Like I said the concept isn't new either
 
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