Two Rucks

[Somebody]

This could be the beginning of seeing Josh Fraser play the role that he may be suited to.

30% of game time in the ruck, 70% floating the ground, becoming part of midfield rotation and spending a little bit of time in the forward line.

that's what I'm thinking, JOsh is a versatile player and can play as a very tall agile marking mid. Maybe could even play defense if necessary though I'm not sure.
If any rucks can play together it's Josh and Wood, who has become a very mobile ruckman and never seems to get caught with the ball these days. If StK can play 2 lumbering dinosaurs we can definitley play Josh and wood. Despite what people are saying, taht still allows swapping Rocca with DAwes at least for a 2 game trial.

 

[The Average Tourist]

Fraser has to come back in he is our #1 Ruckman.

Wood deserves to stay in given his form over the time Fraser has been out.

Malthouse loves the way Leroy Brown goes about it and has been talking him up most of the season - doubt he will get dropped.

The main thing I can see happening is:

Fraser IN
Dawes OUT

Effectively we get 2 genuine ruckman in the side.

Then Leroy plays as a Backman.

I just cant see Nathan Brown coming back in.

If Rocca is to come in maybe Malthouse is thinking of dropping a small such as Dick

First let me say I am a huge Dawesome fan but his time will come. I think the quote above is spot on but if I knew how to look up "old threads" there was one early in the year that had "Wood or Bryan"

My comment was for the Pies to be any good in 2009 Wood had to be our number one ruckman and Josh would play as old people like me remember as a "Follower taking occasional taps but playing more as a Ruck Rover.

I think Josh is best suited to that role as he can play as a key forward he can kick goals, take big marks and is good on the ground. He can also play in the ruck.

Josh playing Ruck Forward will really upset a few teams (but unfortunately at the loss of Dawesome)

The only thing Josh doesnt do is smash packs like Rocca, and eventually Dawesome Trav and Jack. Leroy Brown to his credit and I must admit I never wanted him in the side does smash packs and does the hard things MM likes a couple who are "ugly footballers" Brown and Toovey.

 

[Old Spice]

There was an article in the sun after the adelaide game refering to this and Malthouse basically said he would play Wood as the ruckman and josh as second ruckman/ forward. I believe this is the best option so in fraser and out dawes. Unfortunately there is no place for Rocca.
In regard to the backline I would have little confidence in L Brown taking Kosi in a final assuming Presti takes Riewoldt. So I would be bringing Nathan Brown back in as he is a better defender and still has the ability to go forward.

Sir, you've gladened my heart and I thank thee.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

It seems the consensus is this (barring injuries or form changes)

Fraser in to play 80% forward and ruck only 20% of the time
Wood to ruck
No room for Rocca or Dawes
L Brown to keep his spot over N Brown

 

[Mental Magpie]

My ideal side.

C. Dawes - OUT - J. Fraser - IN
B. Dick - OUT - A. Rocca - IN

Rocca at FF - Plays out of the square
Fraser - Roaming forward of centre - Wood takes the centre bounces & roams rear of centre and swaps with josh when he needs a rest.

 

[Sloth]

Just imagine the damage Fraser could do if he wasn't buggered by the last quarter

 

[Old Spice]

It seems the consensus is this (barring injuries or form changes)

Fraser in to play 80% forward and ruck only 20% of the time
Wood to ruck
No room for Rocca or Dawes
L Brown to keep his spot over N Brown

That's possibly it there Timmy, of course I'd prefer to see a genuine defender and swingman in Rambo over Anvil.

Re Rocca, I wouldn't want to see dick out because I think he gives us more flexibility with Davis, Thomas and Didak.

 

[smiddaz123]

My bad if wrong. Thought I have seen him in recent weeks spending a lot of time in the back half. Certainly his combination of toughness and offensive ability suits a role back there.

Yeh he definitely has the tools to play there. I've always seen him as a genuine midfielder personally.

 

[LaMasque]

it's a dilly of a pickle, if only MM had time to see whether our team could have all these giants in the same side, but we've run out of time.

1. Wood
2. Fraser
3. L. Brown
4. Dawes
5. N. Brown
6. Rocca

My order of the giants. Rocca is running out of time to prove himself, although at this stage he is my number 6 giant, he was starting to look good in our side before he got injured again and I feel a fit Rocca could bring us a flag this season, but as I said, he is fast running out of time.
A fit Rocca is ahead of Dawes.
Nathan would do a better job on kosi than Leigh, but Liegh has been very very impressive down back the past month, so I don't see Nathan getting back in barring injury.

 

[Rustin Cohle]

It seems the consensus is this (barring injuries or form changes)

Fraser in to play 80% forward and ruck only 20% of the time
Wood to ruck
No room for Rocca or Dawes
L Brown to keep his spot over N Brown

This, basically. I feel it's the best way to optimize Fraser's running ability. The guy was rucking games by himself for years, so we all know he can handle a forward role and he is more than capable of helping out around the ground. I'd rather have him in the forward line than Rocca, simply because of his engine.

The only thing that I think could go either way is N. Brown in for L. Brown, but I see no need to make the change if Leigh continues to do his job each week.


EDIT: I'd also prefer Dick in the side over Rocca, simply due to his forward pressure. Even when he isn't getting kicks, Dick's tackling and chasing is brilliant. I love his enthusiasm and effort. He always gives a huindred percent. Rocca's forward pressure, on the other hand, is hampered by his lack of speed and stamina. It's unfortunate, but true. So, if Rocca isn't kicking goals or taking marks, he is basically useless in the forward line. I don't like to be so blunt about it, because he has given us so much over the years, yet it is the truth in my eyes.

 

[pieman123]

it's a dilly of a pickle, if only MM had time to see whether our team could have all these giants in the same side, but we've run out of time.

1. Wood
2. Fraser
3. L. Brown
4. Dawes
5. N. Brown
6. Rocca

My order of the giants. Rocca is running out of time to prove himself, although at this stage he is my number 6 giant, he was starting to look good in our side before he got injured again and I feel a fit Rocca could bring us a flag this season, but as I said, he is fast running out of time.
A fit Rocca is ahead of Dawes.
Nathan would do a better job on kosi than Leigh, but Liegh has been very very impressive down back the past month, so I don't see Nathan getting back in barring injury.

I wouldnt say hes been impressive i mean he was destroyed by J Brown 1 on 1 and on the weekend was easily our worst defender conceding 3 or 4 goals, Leigh Brown has been good but he only started playing in defence because Nathan Brown got injured in the Hawthorn game. Nathan Browns form was pretty good before getting injured btw

 

[loki04]

I wouldnt say hes been impressive i mean he was destroyed by J Brown 1 on 1 and on the weekend was easily our worst defender conceding 3 or 4 goals, Leigh Brown has been good but he only started playing in defence because Nathan Brown got injured in the Hawthorn game. Nathan Browns form was pretty good before getting injured btw

Agree, the main factor for leigh is he is making some of the younger players walk taller which is good.

MM will keep L.Brown in the team, he loves him.

Reid is another who has killed it at CHB in the VFL yet MM plays forward in AFL.

Within 2 years it will be dissapointing if we don't see this:

FB. N.Brown
CHB. B.Reid

Brown is good enough now and is in my top 22, unfortunately MM rates L.Brown higher.

 

[magpiewarrior]

Josh to play wing when Cams' in Ruck. Josh has played on the wing a couple of times over the years and as we all know Joshs' strength is his around the ground not doing the tap work. He's certainly shown us that he is capable of doing the work and his height and agility make him extremely hard to match up on.

 

[doppleganger]

Josh to play as a ruck/forward combo

Let him roam all over the ground, help Cloke out at CHF, then rest down in the goal square.........he did this back in 02 when McKee was the 'main' Ruck.

In terms of Defense, I just dont want L.Brown in the team.

Harry O can take Riewoldt, Presti can take Kosi

Do any of the other teams even have two dominant KP forwards???

 

[pieman123]

lions obviously have brown and bradshaw, cats have mooney and hawkins and youd rather put brown and presti on those 2 so harry can take johnson or chapman

 

[kevind]

Good thread, OS. And this will be the crux question going forward.

I would guess that Fraser will come in and Dawes will go out as being the only change to the team, unless there are injuries.

Rocca has been a great servant for the club but his body has probably had it from all the times he put it on the line for the club. The game has also gone up a gear in the last 2 years, so his inclusion could be a massive risk.

Does anyone know the AFL coach who was quoted as saying "I'd love to play Collingwood with Rocca in the team"( in the HS recently).

Nathan Brown appears to be in trouble as well. His form has been pretty ordinary this year and now he seems(from reading other posters VFL reports) to be struggling with a knee injury. So L. Brown looks safe to me.

I think you will see once again in the finals this year that Fraser is right-2 ruckmen are required.

If we managed to make the GF and played the Saints, I would be most worried about Gardiner and King monstering us in the ruck and a match up with Riewoldt. Unfortunately,I doubt if Presti could keep up with the Saints star. Riewoldt absolutely destroyed N. Brown in the final last year and I would be super worried about using L. Brown on him. We may have to look at using someone like Harry O on him, but then we lose some run and rebound out of defence. It would also force us into playing the game on the Saints terms.

The other major concern for me is L Brown and Toovey have been good for us this year, but will they be able to stand up in a cut throat final? Players of their ilk often get exposed badly at the final hurdle.

 

[doppleganger]

lions obviously have brown and bradshaw, cats have mooney and hawkins and youd rather put brown and presti on those 2 so harry can take johnson or chapman

Id rather not have Leroy on Brown or Bradshaw, would like a fit and inform N.Brown to take one of them, but not sure that will be the case. Still think that Harry is a better option than L.Brown on either of them.

Against the cats, yes Leroy could prob handle Hawkins, but that is because Hawkins aint that good yet. Would rahter Goldsack come into the side who can do jobs on some of their medium forwards, Goldie has done ok against guys like Mick O'Loughlin and even Buddy in the past.

Leroy is in as a spare parts Ruck bloke, if we go with Fraser and Wood, Leroy should not be in the team, because as a KP defender he aint that flash. He is a good 'all-rounder' but in finals you should go with best options.

 

[loki04]

Nathan Brown appears to be in trouble as well. His form has been pretty ordinary this year and now he seems(from reading other posters VFL reports) to be struggling with a knee injury. So L. Brown looks safe to me.

I think you will see once again in the finals this year that Fraser is right-2 ruckmen are required.

.

BS it has, he was one of our best backs in quite a few games this year and solid in the rest was no weak link lets put it that way.

He was having a good/solid year till he was dropped due to the dogs small forward line, then because of L.Brown going back has struggled to get back in even though L.Brown has been performing worse in the role.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Nathan Brown was poor early, slowly got better, then got injured. Its unfortunate for him but he's probably a bee's dick behind Leroy at this stage. Thos who are bagging Leigh Brown dont know a lot about football. He's not the most fashionable and Malthouse made him do too much ruckwork early in the year, but he's a valuable contributor to our line-up. And he's tough.

Its got to be remembered N Brown has only played 20 odd games. I'd prefer the experience and physical strength of Leigh Brown for the time being.

But we have options in our VFL team and should we get injuries or suspension we have players on every linew who can come in and make a seamless transition into the 22. We wont have to select Tristan Walker should we get a few injuries.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

And for those who think we should go into a finals campaign with only one key defender and use O'Brien or Maxwell as a CHB, think again. You need two big blokes. One will be Presti, the other will be one of the Browns (or Reid as a fall back option).

 

[loki04]

Nathan Brown was poor early, slowly got better, then got injured. Its unfortunate for him but he's probably a bee's dick behind Leroy at this stage. Thos who are bagging Leigh Brown dont know a lot about football. He's not the most fashionable and Malthouse made him do too much ruckwork early in the year, but he's a valuable contributor to our line-up. And he's tough.

Its got to be remembered N Brown has only played 20 odd games. I'd prefer the experience and physical strength of Leigh Brown for the time being.

But we have options in our VFL team and should we get injuries or suspension we have players on every linew who can come in and make a seamless transition into the 22. We wont have to select Tristan Walker should we get a few injuries.

Actually you will find in the early part of the year half the team was poor and he was actually one of the defenders playing well, Maxwells 1st 8 games were poor, L.Browns has only played a handfull of good games all year and a hell of a lot of poor ones.

His biggest asset is his physical presence as i already stated in an earlier post and experience, kicking and being exposed at Ruck/CHB are his major flaws.

 

[Two Eyes]

Suggestions of replacing Brad Dick with Rocca are ludicrous as they play completely different roles. Dick is hugely important to us because of the forward pressure he exerts. He is right up there in he tackle count as well as being a handy source of goals. As has been stated numerous times, he frees up Didak, Davis and Thomas to spend more time in the midfield.

Its all very well to say play Rocca from the goal square but his opponent will run off him all day long.

This week I would say Fraser in, Dawes out. I see a bit future for Dawes but not this year...

 

[GoldyJr]

I'm thinking that finals football needs two ruckman. Genuine Ruckmen. Watching Leigh Brown struggle against Hudson (from the Bulldogs) in that last quarter after Fraser went down with his knee, was enough for me. We got smashed after that and Cameron Wood is now showing some real potential. Seems a given to me.

Having said that I do realise that the pies do like the flexibility of the Leigh Brown type to throw around. Thats really what has held back a genuine ruck combination so far this year for us.

Its easy to say if aint broke don't fix it, we're winning its hard to change the side up. My opinion is though that both Fraser and Nathan Brown should be automatic inclusions. Leigh Brown should make way. I really don't think he's made any position his own. Fills in Ok but I really think he's in the team cause he's a big lump of a bloke. We have better options.
The second out is tough I suppose Dawes is the obvious one, but I really think he showed something, particularly against the crows. I guess his inconsistancy so far might have him out but I'd be playing him for the next to weeks to get him up and about.

Dick and Medhurst you would think are automatic inclusions. I don't actually think they are giving us a whole lot at the moment. Wellingham looks so good out there at times but doesn't have to do much wrong to be taught a lesson in the two's by the looks.

I guess it all depends who we play do we need the extra runner or the extra big man.

If its the runner we need....Dawes out (Fraser to Pinch hit up forward)
If its the big man......Dick Out (dicky is great but hes just going right now)

I'd be leaning towards Brad Dick out just because we have Thomas, Leon (of late), Dids and Lockyer running around the forward line.

Anything could happen in the next two weeks though. The decisons might be forced in another direction. Hopefully we win this week and get through unscathed.

 

[Mental Magpie]

Suggestions of replacing Brad Dick with Rocca are ludicrous as they play completely different roles. Dick is hugely important to us because of the forward pressure he exerts. He is right up there in he tackle count as well as being a handy source of goals. As has been stated numerous times, he frees up Didak, Davis and Thomas to spend more time in the midfield.

Its all very well to say play Rocca from the goal square but his opponent will run off him all day long.

This week I would say Fraser in, Dawes out. I see a bit future for Dawes but not this year...

Take a look at the best side in the comp. Roo, Kosi, King, Gardiner....... they are a tall side. JA can play Dicks role, with more aggression! Rest him in the pocket and rotate Thomas, Medhurst, Davis etc through Dicks position.
Don't get me wrong, I love what Dick brings to the side, but you need HARD bodies come finals. That's why Jonno stays. Dick hurt his shoulder trying to tackle. He's way too light weight for my liking, needs a couple of years on the protein shakes, KFC and Kebabs whilst pumping big weights in the Gym.
Rocca, JA and Medders, with Fraser roaming forward of centre.......... throw in a Didak, Davis, Thomas, Swan, Cloke....... **** me! Who the hell is going to stop that forward line?!

 

[mdc]

Actually you will find in the early part of the year half the team was poor and he was actually one of the defenders playing well

You're having a laugh. Nathan was routinely in our worst handful from the end of 2008 through the first few rounds of 2009. That's not an indictment on him as he's a very young tall, it's just the facts. His best is better than Leigh Brown's and I'd like to see him in the team, but I think people get carried away with youth a bit at times. Come finals time, age is irrelevant.