Two Up

[Crankitup]

What are your actual figures, numbers for point a), and where did you get them from?

The first comprehensive article I read was here;

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2315899/

Then several others;

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/a...-smallpox-vaccine-really-a-great-success.aspx

https://raypeatforum.com/community/attachments/koch_survival_factor-pdf.1396/

I've just come across another source that summarises things quite nicely but I haven't checked it's veracity yet;

https://soilandhealth.org/wp-content/uploads/GoodBooks/The Health Revolution - fifth edition.pdf

Since Edward Jenner of England in 1796 demonstrated the use of cowpox vaccine against smallpox, vaccinations against smallpox were started. Despite this, a smallpox epidemic swept England in 1839 and killed 22,081 people. The Government in 1853 made smallpox vaccinations compulsory, but the incidence of the disease kept increasing, and in 1872 another epidemic killed 44,840 people, most of whom were vaccinated. The compulsory vaccination law was abolished in 1948. Similar disasters occurred in Germany and Japan but possibly the worst was in the Philippines in 1918 when the US Government forced over three million natives to be vaccinated. Of these, 47,369 came down with smallpox and 16,477 died. In 1919 the program was doubled, and over seven million were vaccinated, of whom 65,180 came down with the disease, and 44,408 died. The epidemic was a direct result of the vaccination program. These facts are described by Dr William F. Koch in his book, The Survival Factor in Neoplastic and Viral Disease (1961). Dr Koch further described the disastrous increase in polio incidence in the USA and Canada following the mass inoculation campaign against polio in 1958. The highest increase was 700% in Ottawa, Canada. Dr Robert Mendelsohn in his book, Confessions of a Medical Heretic, questions the safety of all immunizations, including diphtheria and whooping cough, in a chapter titled, "If this is Preventive medicine, I'll take my chances with Disease!"

 

[kickazz]

Wow. I wonder why I've never heard of that Dr. Koch book and the stats about polio.

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Oh hang on, it was written in 1961 and there's been like **** all polio since then.

 

[kickazz]

Damn those vaccinations for not completely eradicating smallpox and polio universally and instantly. If they had, then we wouldn't be facing so many issues with smallpox and polio today.

 

[Crankitup]

Damn those vaccinations for not completely eradicating smallpox and polio universally and instantly. If they had, then we wouldn't be facing so many issues with smallpox and polio today.

The following quote from Dr Robert Mendelsohn might be instructive.

Here is the core of my concern:

I. There is no convincing scientific evidence that mass inoculations can be credited with eliminating any childhood disease. While it is true that some once common childhood diseases have diminished or disappeared since inoculations were introduced, no one really knows why, although improved living conditions may be the reason. If immunizations were responsible for the diminishing or disappearance of these diseases in the United States, one must ask why they disappeared simultaneously in Europe, where mass immunizations did not take place.

2. It is commonly believed that the Salk vaccine was responsible for halting the polio epidemics that plagued American children in the 19405 and 1950s. If so, why did the epidemics also end in Europe, where polio vaccine was not so extensively used? Of greater current relevance, why is the Sabin virus vaccine still being administered to children when Dr. Jonas Salk, who pioneered the first vaccine, points out that Sabin vaccine is now causing most of the polio cases that appear. Continuing to force this vaccine on children is irrational medical behaviour that simply confirms my contention that doctors consistently repeat their mistakes. With the polio vaccine we are witnessing a rerun of the medical reluctance to abandon the smallpox vaccination, which remained as the only source of smallpox-related deaths for three decades after the disease had disappeared.

Think of it! For thirty years kids died from smallpox vaccinations even though no longer threatened by the disease.

Full Source. East West Journal November 1984

 

[Long Live HFC]

lol, mercola

 

[Long Live HFC]

http://www.quackwatch.com/11Ind/mendelson.html

 

[Good_Old]

It's the mercury... it causes the down syndrome.

 

[Nothing]

This isn't necessarily directed at anyone in particular in this thread (or the Modern Medicine is a Sham thread), but **** there are some dumb campaigners in the world.

 

[Illinois Nazi]

This isn't necessarily directed at anyone in particular in this thread (or the Modern Medicine is a Sham thread), but **** there are some dumb campaigners in the world.

It probably should be.

 

[Crankitup]

lol, mercola

And the problem is what exactly? Why don't you debate the issue instead of committing the most boring of logical fallacies - poisoning the well.

 

[Crankitup]

http://www.quackwatch.com/11Ind/mendelson.html

Didn't see a problem with any of that. So he doesn't agree with fluoridation - neither do I. Stop being lazy. Debate the issue instead of continually trying to poison the well.

 

[Crankitup]

This isn't necessarily directed at anyone in particular in this thread (or the Modern Medicine is a Sham thread), but **** there are some dumb campaigners in the world.

Would you care to elaborate on why you think this? Can you be more specific? Or are you deluded enough to think your mere opinion is a valid substitue for hard facts?

 

[Perth gal]

That is weird. Because only one side has evidence.

Actually no. Hence the debate.

 

[Long Live HFC]

And the problem is what exactly?

mercola is a well-established loon. if you didn't know that, you're quite new to this game.

Why don't you debate the issue instead of committing the most boring of logical fallacies - poisoning the well.

honestly, just can't be bothered trying to properly engage with every cretin that thinks what they reference has some merit. whack-a-mole is a tiring (and tiresome) excercise.

 

[Crankitup]

mercola is a well-established loon. if you didn't know that, you're quite new to this game.

Just give me 5 reasons why they're a 'loon'. Edward Jenner supposedly was one too but I wouldn't use that to try and argue this issue because that would be poisoning the well and not manning up to the issue.

honestly, just can't be bothered trying to properly engage with every cretin that thinks what they reference has some merit. whack-a-mole is a tiring (and tiresome) excercise.

Oh well piss off then and stop wasting my time. I want to debate the issue with someone who has some understanding of it and can debate science.

 

[Long Live HFC]

So he doesn't agree with fluoridation - neither do I.

well, i for one am *shocked*!

nuts are so predictable. the reason you don't get more than "well-poisoning" is because you don't deserve it/haven't earned it. people that subscribe to "alternative" thinking (and i use the term loosely) are impossible to reason with. if they were reasonable people, they wouldn't believe these things in the first place. so yeah, i prefer to throw tomatoes and mock, as the results are exactly the same but take less effort.

Stop being lazy.

no.

 

[Crankitup]

well, i for one am *shocked*!

nuts are so predictable. the reason you don't get more than "well-poisoning" is because you don't deserve it/haven't earned it. people that subscribe to "alternative" thinking (and i use the term loosely) are impossible to reason with. if they were reasonable people, they wouldn't believe these things in the first place. so yeah, i prefer to throw tomatoes and mock, as the results are exactly the same but take less effort.



no.

 

[Long Live HFC]

Just give me 5 reasons why they're a 'loon'.

they? joseph mercola is a person.

here's 23 reasons. a list of a few things mercola's site claims cause cancer. linked this on BF a while ago for another mercola numpty. she ran away without answering my questions (again, shocked!)

http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2015/03/23-more-things-dr-mercola-has-said-cause-cancer.html

Oh well piss off then and stop wasting my time. I want to debate the issue with someone who has some understanding of it and can debate science.

why do you clowns always demand respect and consideration for your shit opinions? earn it with a reasonable, well-resourced position. yeah, i know you think you're a unique and independent thinker, but for the more experienced skeptics you're just a carbon copy.

 

[JoseMourinho]

Wow. I wonder why I've never heard of that Dr. Koch book and the stats about polio.

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Oh hang on, it was written in 1961 and there's been like **** all polio since then.

Nah, it was a clear coincidence that the vaccine eliminated polio. Polio just went and flew to Mars and decimated their population instead.

 

[Crankitup]

Nah, it was a clear coincidence that the vaccine eliminated polio. Polio just went and flew to Mars and decimated their population instead.

You do know that polio hasn't been eliminated don't you? The VACCINE itself caused tens of thousands of paralysis cases as recently as last year.

 

[JoseMourinho]

You do know that polio hasn't been eliminated don't you? The VACCINE itself caused tens of thousands of paralysis cases as recently as last year.

Well, shouldn't there be empirical evidence of it then?

If not, don't bother wasting my time

<3 Jose.

 

[Crankitup]

they? joseph mercola is a person.

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Still wasting my time? Peope who think they know their grammar look like such tools when they try and school someone else on an aspect of it and turn out to be wrong for doing so. I'll let you in on a little secret you f'wit. 'They' can be used in a singular sense. I know you won't believe me so ...

They is the third-person plural personal pronoun (subjective case) in Modern English. It can also be used with singular meaning, particularly in informal contexts, sometimes to avoid specifying the gender of the person referred to.
They - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/They

 

[Nothing]

Would you care to elaborate on why you think this? Can you be more specific? Or are you deluded enough to think your mere opinion is a valid substitue for hard facts?

I have learnt enough about organic and inorganic chemistry to understand (at a very superficial level) some of the reasons why vaccines work. As a result, sometimes I think some people are dumb campaigners. They are wilfully ignorant, ill-considered and generally two-bit crackpots.

I've had exposure to people who have spent their lives in biochemistry, pharmacology and a range of other areas related to actual science. Nobody who has a modicum of intelligence (with/without an iota of scientific background) gives any credence to anti-vaxxers or the other crackpot theories that get bandied about occasionally. I look at the research, apply my knowledge or ask people who have studied in the area concerned and form a well-rounded decision.

Of course, I should just look up a website or learn everything from memes.

 

[Long Live HFC]

Still wasting my time? Peope who think they know their grammar look like such tools when they try and school someone else on an aspect of it and turn out to be wrong for doing so. I'll let you in on a little secret you f'wit. 'They' can be used in a singular sense. I know you won't believe me so ...

ha, i wasn't trying to correct your grammar (i leave those petty games for the lost causes like Little Graham). i was querying your use of 'they're' only because it appeared you were unaware who mercola was in your quick google cut 'n paste from an earlier post. i retract my comment if you really do know who he is, but then that raises the question why you seem unaware he's considered a loon by, well, normal people?

 

[Crankitup]

I have learnt enough about organic and inorganic chemistry to understand (at a very superficial level) some of the reasons why vaccines work.

Can you explain what the field of INORGANIC chemistry specifically has to do with vaccination?

Nobody who has a modicum of intelligence (with/without an iota of scientific background) gives any credence to anti-vaxxers ..

For the record - I studied for a Bachelor of Science degree at UWA some years ago. I didn't finish the degree mind you, having gained employment before needing to do so. I've often thought about going back and finishing what I started.