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News Vale Bruce Ruxton.

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JonoNash said:
That is incorrect. When the Vietnam Vets returned, the majority of the Australian public treated this group with disrespect. They spat on them at airports, they called them baby killers and other assorted things.
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A vocal minority would probably be more accurate. It was the vocal minority that was responsible for the derision. The majority of Australians treated Vietnam vets with indifference comparative to those of WWI and WWII. Although I guess you could argue that indifference is disrespect.
 
jerry springer said:
A little bit of respect for a digger who has passed away wouldn't go astray.

He wasnt everybody's cup of tea but his pro's far outweighed his cons.

A little bit of perspective

http://www.smh.com.au/national/obit...-in-private-compassionate-20111225-1p9kq.html
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This is true.

Something my history teacher once said that always stuck with me was that you shouldn't judge past history based on present ideology.

I think this is true here. Bruce was a man of a different generation. I don't agree with all of his opinions but he most definitely deserves the utmost respect for the service and sacrifice that he gave our country.
 
jerry springer said:
A little bit of respect for a digger who has passed away wouldn't go astray.

He wasnt everybody's cup of tea but his pro's far outweighed his cons.

A little bit of perspective

http://www.smh.com.au/national/obit...-in-private-compassionate-20111225-1p9kq.html
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Agree - and disagree

He earned respect for his courage overseas but negated that with his treatment of returning Vietnamese veterans. The disgraceful treatment of the brave service people by an ignorant and vocal minority pales into insignificance to the premeditated and calculated refusal to recognize them by the organization most in the position to understand their trials.

Ruxton's falling into line with the RSL line caused much pain and suffering, I personally know 2 friends who spent extended periods in psychiatric care and one who took the final escape. There is no excuse for putting fellow servicemen second to bootlicking the RSL executive.
 

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He came to speak at my school in 1993 when I was in year 7. I remember even at that age being shocked by some of his disturbingly racist views.

One of my peer support leaders was from Papua New Guinea, and I remember seeing her get up and leave half way through it, then seeing her in tears outside straight after. Quite a few others including staff got up and left as well. I'm not sure why he felt it necessary to bring such views to a school assembly, but suffice to say, I never had much time for the guy after that.

Condolences to those who loved him, but I am not one of them.
 
Smokeyr67 said:
Pte Ruxton deserves our respect for the fact he volunteered for service in a time of war.


That is all
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No smokey that's not all, its your opinion which you are welcome to. IMHO he deserves SOME respect for fighting in the war but ask many returned Vietnam veterans who served IN THE RANKS and I believe you will find a vastly different perception of his 'service'.
 
Mods, perhaps this discussion has gone as far as it can and should either be closed or moved?
 
There have been a lot of viewpoints through the wars and different motivations for people participating in them. The barbarity of the First World War was shocking because no-one had yet seen anything like it. The prior conflict for Australians was the Boer War, which was hardly a primer for what was to come.

The initial enthusiasm that greeted WWI, here and overseas, was enormous, almost hysterical, because only war (and sport) puts the common man seemingly on equal footing with the high and mighty. The announcement of hostilities was the occassion in Melbourne for rampaging through China Town, despite the fact China had no invovlement or that some Chinese had been here for generations. Other motivations were a naive sense of adventure, for what could be worse than the drudgery of working-life? Plenty as it happened.

The conclusion of WWI did not mean an overwhelming stampede of ex-servicemen into the RSL. The politics of that organisation made many uncomfortable, including the last Australian Gallipoli survivor, Alec Campbell.

WWII saw other motivations and conclusions drawn. Some wanted to smash Hitler and defend democracy, others were overwhelmed by hatred for the Japanese, which often translated into a spectrum of racist views. You'll also find that some parts of the armed forces held different views. The navy, who were relatively highly skilled and most international in their experience by taint of visiting ports all over the world, have historically been the most politically progressive.

In any case, what's clear is that people go into war with a variety of views - especially so when the army is conscripted and the soldiers haven't had their individuality drilled out of them. They also leave with different views.

A lot of the charry views of the RSL toward Vietnam veteran's was related to the fact that this was a losing war.

I don't know that people fighting wars always go into it to defend free-speech. Hitler fought in WWI not to extend free-speech but for Deutschland Uber Alles. After WWI his overwhelming obsession was to overthrow the Weimar Republic and to throw trade unionists out of windows, amongst others. The RSL were very much engaged post WWI with right-wing political organisation. That's why the aforementioned Alec Campbell who was a committed trade unionist, and many others, were not in thrall of the RSL.

There have been two elements of the RSL, one of which has been welfare, the other political lobbying of a specific type of viewpoint. Whether welfare provisions for ex-soldiers needed the RSL specifically is doubtful, but the RSL certainly came to need the welfare element as political cover.
 
Good for you Old Spice for trying to give your summation of the two world wars.....lol...I think several volumes might be needed next time. I'll always support someone with an opinion, as long as it doesn't undermine the Collingwood Football club.

One thing is for sure, never in the past have I measured the worth of a man by his military service. This sort of crap occurs in the USA and has been going on for years. It's not surprising that you see it in Australia more and more, as we attached the chains to our nose rings and join the yankee conga...
 
Old Spice said:
A lot of the charry views of the RSL toward Vietnam veteran's was related to the fact that this was a losing war.
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Your entire post was very interesting and as another poster said it opens up a whole host of issues worthy of discussion in some detail, however I respect the fact that this board should predominantly be about football.

Before I leave the discussion I think the point you made above is relevant, as I have read numerous first hand accounts of Vietnam veterans being told to remove their medals whilst inside an RSL because "we don't wear losers medals here son". Challenges by Vietnam Vets to that point of view were summarily dismissed by the RSL hierarchy, which amounted to tacit approval of the practice.
 
i think you are talking about the 1970s etc when no one loved they guys who went to vietnam. More recently, the RSL are only too happy to have them to boost the numbers.

If i was conscripted to fight in a civil war, I would be pretty dark on the gov't. Then again, I cant believe that Howard spent my taxes on invading Iraq to keep his mate happy...
 

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Markfs said:
One thing is for sure, never in the past have I measured the worth of a man by his military service. This sort of crap occurs in the USA and has been going on for years. It's not surprising that you see it in Australia more and more, as we attached the chains to our nose rings and join the yankee conga...
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Really?

I would have said that it's happening here less and less. As a child of the 70's I was taught to deeply respect those who served in the armed services to defend our country and way of life (The implication was those who fought in WWII, not Vietnam or Korea) I don't believe that Iraq, East Timor, Solomons and Afghanistan have touched the national consciousness the same way.

But for Americans, Iraq and Afghanistan would be deeply within the national consciousness because of the link (perceived or real) to 9/11.
 
Thank you Markfs for your feint praise.

I'll make a comment about Collingwood and WWI here because that constituted a large share of my history thesis on Collingwood and the period form 1870-1920, the period that piece covered.

The question of conscription was the major issue of 1916 / 17 in fact it was probably the most bitter period of Australian history. The 1st referendum of 1916 was defeated, as was the second in 1917. Both were close by bald statistics, but closer scrutiny reveals something interesting.

While the national statistics were close to 50/50, when you break the figures down by electorates and suburbs, the figures are much more divergent. Working class electorates like Yarra (which included Richmond and Collingwood for example) returned 'no' votes in the high 60%s, while Kooyong or Henty (Brighton) returned ýes votes in the high 60%s.

In other words, Collingwood as a suburb was never a bedrock of militarism. Yes Collingwood citizens would volunteer for service, but Collingwood was never a touchstone of Australian militarism. In fact the early volunteers for service were often taunted by the larrikins of inner Melbourne.

It's an interesting topic given we are so integral to the ANZAC Day game, which has become shrouded in some very deliberate and fuzzy platitudes - from serving your country to detesting the futility of war. It needs more exploration.
 

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