Vegan and Vegetarian Diets

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For gods sake. A vegan/vegetarian diet is INHERENTLY deficient in B12, low in iron, zinc, calcium (if vegan), folate. The minerals that are available are in the lesser absorbable forms. Not to mention dairy and animal proteins are vastly superior in both absorbaility and animo acid profile than vegetable proteins. Not to mention all the benefits associated with dairy proteins on a while host of health outcomes. Not to mention you are also missing out on preformed omega-3s and have to rely on the body's measly 1-10% conversion of vegetarian omega-3 sources.

No s**t if you SUPPLEMENT everything that's missing then you can have a nutritionally complete vegan diet.

Fight the good fight showdownhero. I've given up trying to reason with vegans years ago. Research is not enough. Facts are not enough. Veganism is a religion. I'm just glad my vegan friends do it for animal welfare reasons, don't force their s**t on everyone and know their diet is inferior.

Nowadays I just sit back and enjoy my delicious steak, and make fun of vegans instead.
 
Aeglos said:
How is it not?
"Just because the study doesn't exist doesn't mean veganism is good for you"
Until such a study exists it is exactly like Shrodiger's cat - veganism is both better, and worse for you
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just read the below, okey mete
WakeUpPies said:
For gods sake. A vegan/vegetarian diet is INHERENTLY deficient in B12, low in iron, zinc, calcium (if vegan), folate. The minerals that are available are in the lesser absorbable forms. Not to mention dairy and animal proteins are vastly superior in both absorbaility and animo acid profile than vegetable proteins. Not to mention all the benefits associated with dairy proteins on a while host of health outcomes. Not to mention you are also missing out on preformed omega-3s and have to rely on the body's measly 1-10% conversion of vegetarian omega-3 sources.

No s**t if you SUPPLEMENT everything that's missing then you can have a nutritionally complete vegan diet.
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showdownhero said:
just read the below, okey mete
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And for (nearly) every negative you've posted about a vegetarian diet I can come up with a research based positive
- 19-25% less chance of dying of heart related disease (depending on reference)
- all but completely eliminate risk of colon cancer
- risk of type 2 diabetes halved
I will accept that the studies mention that the % may be due to other lifestyle choices that tend to go hand in hand with veg based diets (not smoking, less alcohol consumption etc), and that it is entirely possible to minimise these risks via a "good" omnivorous diet, but the way you guys carry on you'd think whatshisface in here is about to spontaneously combust because he doesn't consume meat
 
showdownhero said:
e44d2d166a6ea2ab7aa6a39476f22e6b.jpg
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He's not 100% vegan, but is when he's training for fights for health reasons.
 
Aeglos said:
And for (nearly) every negative you've posted about a vegetarian diet I can come up with a research based positive
- 19-25% less chance of dying of heart related disease (depending on reference)
- all but completely eliminate risk of colon cancer
- risk of type 2 diabetes halved
I will accept that the studies mention that the % may be due to other lifestyle choices that tend to go hand in hand with veg based diets (not smoking, less alcohol consumption etc), and that it is entirely possible to minimise these risks via a "good" omnivorous diet, but the way you guys carry on you'd think whatshisface in here is about to spontaneously combust because he doesn't consume meat
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incredulous.gif


I've never mentioned a vegetarian diet being unhealthy, and as you've mentioned these observational studies are total garbage.
 
StiffArm said:
You asked for a source for an athlete being vegan. I give you a video of him discussing it. Is there a more solid source? WTF are you asking?
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this
StiffArm said:
It's like using high octane clean fuel, instead of using diesel (which has more energy, but is dirty/heavy)
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But in reality this type of dribble doesn't even count as pseudo science, it's actually just plain garbage.
 
WakeUpPies said:
Look, I have no interest in arguing with you. Veganism is more like a religion than a diet. All I will say is the:

1. the very review you quoted is all about the necessary dietary steps you must take to avoid the pitfalls of a diet inherently low or deficient in iron, zinc, B12, calcium ...

2. your comment about the risks of a meat rich diet tells me all I need to know about your background knowledge.

3. I don't care what Nate Diaz does because that's just an anecdote. N = 1. If we do want to continue down that route, what about all the rest of the elite athletes in the world that are not vegans. It's a pointless argument.

/end
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1. It would be remiss of ANY study not to mention the risks of the topic it is exploring.

2. The whole reason I became vegan was because I couldn't find a single good reason not to, and not for lack of trying. All the arguments for eating meat are stupid =\

3. There are many successful vegan athletes around the world. The point is that nothing is lacking in a vegan diet.

I have no interest in argument, but if you're going to spew hateful misinformation at least be prepared to back it up.
 
showdownhero said:
this

But in reality this type of dribble doesn't even count as pseudo science, it's actually just plain garbage.
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Oh, actually I'll give you that. Without context it was a poor anecdote. Was late at night here.

Point I was making is that meat is high in nutrient content because it's high in EVERYTHING. The animal eats somewhere between 8-16kg of plant matter to produce 1kg of meat and everything its body isn't able to excrete is stored in its flesh. For this reason while meat is more nutrient dense and calorie dense, it also contains higher level of background pollution such as herbicide and pesticide traces, heavy metals, hormones, PCB's when it comes to aquatic life...

Hence my anecdote to diesel, more energy per volume, but not a cleaner burn.
Given obesity is the biggest illness risk factor in our society, to me a lack of calories does not seem to be an issue.


showdownhero said:
:tearsofjoy::tearsofjoy::tearsofjoy:

and b12
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Yep, b12 is the only concession I'll make. B12 is of bacteria origin, essentially mostly develops in poo. 1
So animals have it due to dirty environments and consumption of soil. Those in factory farms don't have that access to soil and need to be supplemented, becoming a risk of b12 deficiency for carnivores.
Historically humans got all the b12 they needed from soil traces on their food and from their drinking water, now that we treat our water and have cleanlier kitchen practices vegans absolutely should supplement it.

$5 gives me 3 months supply of a tasteless powder which I add to breakfast every couple of days. Other solutions include fortified cereals, drinks etc.
That's how I deal with my risk factor. How do you deal with your meat-related risk factor of erectile dysfunction?
 
StiffArm said:
Way to engage.
http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/32/5/791
http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/32/5/791

Large scale scientific research concluding that vegans were the only population even close to being consistently within healthy BMI range.
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Correlation≠Causation
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/474966

Obesity to overtake smoking as leading cause of preventable death.

http://www.aihw.gov.au/overweight-and-obesity/

63% of Australians are overweight.
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Sugar and grains are more dangerous to weight gain the animal products boyo
 

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showdownhero said:
who's talking to you ovo boy?

you get all the b12 you need from eggs
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Only if the chickens are allowed to gain their b12 from soil they peck in.

"Chickens and other birds get B12 from pecking around for worms and other insects. These animals store B12 mostly in their livers and muscles and some B12 pass into milk and eggs.

But, cattle no longer feed on grass and chickens do not peck in the dirt on factory farms. Even if they did, pesticides often kill B12 producing bacteria and insects in soil. Heavy antibiotic use kills B12 producing bacteria in the guts of farm animals. In order to maintain meat a source of B12 the meat industry now adds it to animal feed, 90% of B12 supplements produced in the world are fed to livestock." source

Given the strong bonds that form between b12 and animal protein, it is actually easier to get it by taking the supplements yourself than by giving the animals supplements and then trying to get it back.
 
showdownhero said:
Correlation≠Causation
Sugar and grains are more dangerous to weight gain the animal products boyo
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On a serious note; how did you get the little does not equals sign?
It looks a lot better than my =/=
 
StiffArm said:
Only if the chickens are allowed to gain their b12 from soil they peck in.

"Chickens and other birds get B12 from pecking around for worms and other insects. These animals store B12 mostly in their livers and muscles and some B12 pass into milk and eggs.

But, cattle no longer feed on grass and chickens do not peck in the dirt on factory farms. Even if they did, pesticides often kill B12 producing bacteria and insects in soil. Heavy antibiotic use kills B12 producing bacteria in the guts of farm animals. In order to maintain meat a source of B12 the meat industry now adds it to animal feed, 90% of B12 supplements produced in the world are fed to livestock." source

Given the strong bonds that form between b12 and animal protein, it is actually easier to get it by taking the supplements yourself than by giving the animals supplements and then trying to get it back.
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That source has precisely nothing to do with what you have written in your post.
 
showdownhero said:
it's a pro vegan newspaper article, and what you copy pasted has precisely zero citations attached to it.

I'd tell you to read the article again but your glaring lack of b12 probably makes that difficult, perhaps you should go take a lay down
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I'll tell you to read the article again. It is not pro vegan, it deals with potential b12 deficiency in animal sources.
The article itself has sources attached. We are discussing on a football forum, secondary sources which contain the primary links are fine.

When I gave you primary links before for a peer reviewed study of nearly 100,000 people showing a 5 point difference in BMI across that population you brushed it off with correlation =/= causation.
Perhaps, but it's pretty ******* strong correlation.

Perhaps you'll understand better in pictures.
Across a study looking at nearly 100,000 people the vegans were 5 points lower than those consuming meat.
BMI2.jpg
 
StiffArm said:
I'll tell you to read the article again. It is not pro vegan, it deals with potential b12 deficiency in animal sources.
The article itself has sources attached. We are discussing on a football forum, secondary sources which contain the primary links are fine.

When I gave you primary links before for a peer reviewed study of nearly 100,000 people showing a 5 point difference in BMI across that population you brushed it off with correlation =/= causation.
Perhaps, but it's pretty ******* strong correlation.

Perhaps you'll understand better in pictures.
Across a study looking at nearly 100,000 people the vegans were 5 points lower than those consuming meat.
BMI2.jpg
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lol you keep going to that BMI BS

BMI is total garbage, if I ever want to look like an anorexic twig I'll certainly consider veganism. thanks
 
showdownhero said:
lol you keep going to that BMI BS

BMI is total garbage, if I ever want to look like an anorexic twig I'll certainly consider veganism. thanks
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To the anorexic twig comment, sure, lets live in stereotypes from the 70's. Pics of vegan body builders.

BMI is the simplest way to track healthy weight across a population. It becomes bullshit for athletes due to muscle mass, but athletes are an irrelevant percentage in society at large.

Perhaps a different tack.

WHO lists cardiovascular diseases as #1 killer source (and lists processed and red meats as type 1 and 2 carcinogens)

Vegan diet can prevent and reverse heart disease source

Surely the benefits of preventing cardiovascular problems (which include heart attack, stroke, erectile dysfunction and hypertension) outweigh possible easily preventable nutrient deficiencies.
 
StiffArm said:
To the anorexic twig comment, sure, lets live in stereotypes from the 70's. Pics of vegan body builders.
BMI is the simplest way to track healthy weight across a population. It becomes bullshit for athletes due to muscle mass, but athletes are an irrelevant percentage in society at large.
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you missed my point entirely

the BMI considers very skinny people to be a healthy weight, this is not something I nor many others on this board are trying to achieve. Vegans being skinny is hardly surprising

I would be considered "healthy" at a weight of 67kgs, I currently weigh 86kg with body fat of around 17%, I would be very unhealthy at 67kgs
Perhaps a different tack.

WHO lists cardiovascular diseases as #1 killer source (and lists processed and red meats as type 1 and 2 carcinogens)

Vegan diet can prevent and reverse heart disease source

Surely the benefits of preventing cardiovascular problems (which include heart attack, stroke, erectile dysfunction and hypertension) outweigh possible easily preventable nutrient deficiencies.
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unhealthy people should eat less meat and more vegetables to be healthier, that doesn't mean they have to be vegan, it's completely unnecessary.

I am a healthy person with absolutely zero risk of cardiovascular disease and a perform rigorous exercise for 6-7 hours a week. Unless it was for ethical reasons veganism makes no sense for someone like myself or any other athlete. Sure it's possible but why bother?

All of your studies are relevant for the sedentary. Even still you can reduce your mortality risks by following a healthier diet without resorting to veganism and none of your studies do anything to disprove this.
 
showdownhero said:
unhealthy people should eat less meat and more vegetables to be healthier, that doesn't mean they have to be vegan, it's completely unnecessary.

I am a healthy person with absolutely zero risk of cardiovascular disease and a perform rigorous exercise for 6-7 hours a week. Unless it was for ethical reasons veganism makes no sense for someone like myself or any other athlete. Sure it's possible but why bother?

All of your studies are relevant for the sedentary. Even still you can reduce your mortality risks by following a healthier diet without resorting to veganism and none of your studies do anything to disprove this.
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You were stating that it is unhealthy to be vegan. That is not correct. The health benefits well outweigh any risks.

There is no such thing as zero risk of cardiovascular disease, but I agree if you're keeping yourself in shape it greatly reduces your risk factors.

"Unless it was for ethical reasons veganism makes no sense for someone like myself or any other athlete."
This is not necessarily true, many athletes like Carl Lewis have had their best results on a meat free diet.

Vegan athletes do well.


I'm not disagreeing that you can be healthy on a diet including meat, just like you can be healthy on a diet including alcohol, but in both cases it is likely that the less you have the better for you.
 
showdownhero said:
also stop citing individual feats as some sort of justificiation for veganism

nate diaz did this, carl lewis did that. It's so ridiculously irrelevant

Usain Bolt won an Olympic gold medal eating nothing but fried chicken
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Individual feats are useful when disproving claims that it is impossible for it to be healthy/competitive etc. It is valid to give individual examples while you continue to spout blanket generalizations like insinuating that all vegans are anemic skin and bones.

I'm not here to convince you that a plant based diet is right for you. But it is a valid choice for those that care for their health.

Environmental and ethical reasons are also extremely strong. (although this isn't the forum to discuss them)
 
StiffArm said:
Individual feats are useful when disproving claims that it is impossible for it to be healthy/competitive etc. It is valid to give individual examples while you continue to spout blanket generalizations like insinuating that all vegans are anemic skin and bones.

I'm not here to convince you that a plant based diet is right for you. But it is a valid choice for those that care for their health.

Environmental and ethical reasons are also extremely strong. (although this isn't the forum to discuss them)
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lol at your insinuation I don't care for my health, I'm sure I'm a lot healthier than you
 
showdownhero said:
lol at your insinuation I don't care for my health, I'm sure I'm a lot healthier than you
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Ha, I didn't mean that as a backhander. Was just stating that a plant based diet is a pretty healthy choice.

I'm assuming you're on some sort of Paleo diet (with the 65% fat intake your blog shows). Thought this may be of interest to you as I don't think most modern paleo diets are even close to what our ancestors actually ate.



Anyway, wish you all the best.
 
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