VFA Vs VFL

[West_Coast_Eagles]

1877 the Vfa was formed.

1897 the vfl was formed (breakaway from former Vfa clubs)



1908 Richmond and University added

World war 1 Vfa stops while war is on vfl continues.

1925 Footscray North Melbourne Hawthorn added to the Vfl from the Vfa - (1924) Footscray added after a stellar year beating essendon in a clash of vfl and Vfa clubs.

30's and 40's leagues still going head to head vfl becomes the premier league drawing far superior crowds. I believe the Vfa and the vfl played as separate teams in a Australia wide carnival vs the other states

50's One Vfa club plays in 9 grand finals in succession only winning one.

1960 first Sunday Vfa game played.

60's Vfa tries to lift its profile two divisions are used for the first time with a promotion and relegation system working. Games start to be televised

Crowds start to increase in the Vfa during this period.

70's the Vfa own Sunday football
Many fans will go to watch there vfl club Saturday and Vfa club Sunday.

1977 centenary of the Vfa

80's commodore cup/army cup starts (VFL Reserves comp) goes head to head with Vfa being televised on television

Mid 80's vfl clubs are buying up players from interstate while the Vfa clubs especially the 2nd division minnows are struggling to keep afloat. Some 2nd division clubs struggling to get 500 people to a game.

1987 west coast and Brisbane added to the Vfl

Late 80's Vfa has run it's race the vfl now is a national comp and is adding teams while the Vfa is struggling and teams are falling off.

The Vfa reverts back to one league.

1991 adelaide added

By 1994 the Vfa was officially over. It would be renamed the Vfl from 1995 onwards.


Very brief and I'm sure some mistakes but just a quick timeline of the Vfa and vfl.


The late 70's early 80's was the Vfa's golden years. The had Sundays to themselves and were one of few places alcohol could be consumed on a Sunday.


The death of the Vfa was the moment the vfl started playing Sunday games firstly with the reserved cup televised live then with the live telecast every seconds week on a Sunday from Sydney once they moved.


What's your thoughts on the two leagues going head to head from 1897-1994?

Did the Vfa ever have am the upper hand?

 

[Mero]

No; they never had the upper hand.
From 1897 they were the leftovers, the clubs that didn't make the Super League called the VFL.
Footscray had to beat Essendon in 1924 to be considered for the comp in 1925.
And it's still conjecture whether they did it fairly, or if people made a lot of money out of the unlikely result.
North tried everything they could, including standing out of footy, and then re-forming to get into the VFL.
As you correctly outline, the 1960s were an era where the VFA went to Sunday games, and more teams in 2 Divisions.
This was to get people to games. And it worked.
I went to a few VFA games in the 70s and 80s and you wouldn't have known the difference between VFL and VFA.
That worked for many years, but only until the VFL started playing on Sundays.
Then the public voted with their feet.

 

[pazza]

It was a relationship that was controversial.

Ask Collingwood supporters about Ron Todd and Des Fothergill who walked out and went to Williamstown for more money, where former blue "Soapy" Vallence was already.

Kevin Sheedy often mentions his time at Prahran and Melbourne's lack of interest in him despite having him under their nose.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

They never had the upper hand.

The VFL had all the biggest clubs and thus a greater following.

They coexisted when they each had their own timeslots, so people could consume both.

Once they went to head to head, it was all over.

 

[SJ]

Many fans will go to watch there vfl club Saturday and Vfa club Sunday.

What were some of the most popular combinations of supporters?

 

[royals1922]

What were some of the most popular combinations of supporters?

Well I followed Oakleigh...

 

[Bunk Moreland]

What were some of the most popular combinations of supporters?

Probably fair to say the VFA was the more "local" sort of competition. I think if people went to watch a VFA club, it was probably just their closest one - particularly after they added the second division and clubs from outer suburbs.

No VFL clubs played in the outer suburbs, I'd hazard a guess that support probably roughly followed their recruiting zones, and more traditionally the train lines that ran past the clubs home grounds.

That's all but disappeared in Melbourne now as generations of families move all over the place, and all clubs play in the CBD - so there's no reason to change your team with your suburb / area.

 

[West_Coast_Eagles]

What if's? Footscray didn't get there way in back in 1925 who would have been the 3rd side? Did stkilda earn a spot in the league? How did the team from a university make it to the best league in the state then?

There was 2 divisions more clubs then vfl. On aggregate total crowd for a round I would be fairly certain in saying the Vfa would have brang more people through the gates than the vfl some rounds.


1877-1950 I would say the vfl & Vfa were very similar.

 

[SJ]

What if's? Footscray didn't get there way in back in 1925 who would have been the 3rd side? Did stkilda earn a spot in the league? How did the team from a university make it to the best league in the state then?

There was 2 divisions more clubs then vfl. On aggregate total crowd for a round I would be fairly certain in saying the Vfa would have brang more people through the gates than the vfl some rounds.


1877-1950 I would say the vfl & Vfa were very similar.

Well for starters from 1877 to 1896 the VFL didn't exist.

 

[pazza]

What if's? Footscray didn't get there way in back in 1925 who would have been the 3rd side? Did stkilda earn a spot in the league? How did the team from a university make it to the best league in the state then?

There was 2 divisions more clubs then vfl. On aggregate total crowd for a round I would be fairly certain in saying the Vfa would have brang more people through the gates than the vfl some rounds.


1877-1950 I would say the vfl & Vfa were very similar.

The first question can be answered easily enough with Prahran having bidded for a spot. The Two Blues had a small but greatly accessed venue at Toorak Park at their disposal.

The 2 divisions didn't really start until the 1960's as part of the population boom and greater accessibility to and from the outer suburbs.

Most VFA games even back then would only get a few hundred to a 1000. Unless you went to Port Melbourne. There's a reason why North Port Oval is as it is now. It's been that way for 80-90 years. Yes the finals got good crowds, but, those crowds rarely topped 15000.

 

[FootyJunkie]

There was a talk in the 40s of having the VFL and VFA clubs under one umbrella where the VFA would become the second division to the VFL and over time via promotion/relegation, the clubs would be mixed amongst the two divisions, unifying Victorian football again after the 1897 split.

The disagreement was how the promotion/relegation would work, particularly for the first season.
The VFA wanted its premier to replace the VFL's wooden spooner, while the VFL wanted a playoff.

You wonder if this would have made it a stronger Victorian comp years later and would a national comp take longer to form.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

There was a talk in the 40s of having the VFL and VFA clubs under one umbrella where the VFA would become the second division to the VFL and over time via promotion/relegation, the clubs would be mixed amongst the two divisions, unifying Victorian football again after the 1897 split.

The disagreement was how the promotion/relegation would work, particularly for the first season.
The VFA wanted its premier to replace the VFL's wooden spooner, while the VFL wanted a playoff.

You wonder if this would have made it a stronger Victorian comp years later and would a national comp take longer to form.

I think sooner or later it probably would have led to a Premier League type setup.

The biggest clubs in the land would work out that they generate the big TV $ and they don't have/want to share it with the rest.

Reckon a breakaway probably would have happened.

 

[FootyJunkie]

The late 70's early 80's was the Vfa's golden years. The had Sundays to themselves and were one of few places alcohol could be consumed on a Sunday.

The death of the Vfa was the moment the vfl started playing Sunday games firstly with the reserved cup televised live then with the live telecast every seconds week on a Sunday from Sydney once they moved.

VFL could have pioneered Saturday Night footy as an alternative. SCG already had lights set up by the early 80s, thanks to Packer/World Series Cricket.

Seven's BIG League at 6:30pm reviewing the 5 games in Melbourne before leading into a LIVE Swans game from the SCG.

 

[andrew coombs]

The first question can be answered easily enough with Prahran having bidded for a spot. The Two Blues had a small but greatly accessed venue at Toorak Park at their disposal.

The 2 divisions didn't really start until the 1960's as part of the population boom and greater accessibility to and from the outer suburbs.

Most VFA games even back then would only get a few hundred to a 1000. Unless you went to Port Melbourne. There's a reason why North Port Oval is as it is now. It's been that way for 80-90 years. Yes the finals got good crowds, but, those crowds rarely topped 15000.

Which period are you referring to? In the late 70"s and early 80"s clubs like Port, Sandringham, Phrahan, Preston, Coburg, Dandenong and Frankston used to regularly pull upward of 7000 per game. Finals played at the Junction oval pulled pretty good crowds, especially the GF. Port Grand Finals against the likes of Preston and Dandy used to get over 25000. The Preston/Prahan GF in 78 got just under 30000. Sandy were hugely popular and their Finals games pulled huge crowds too. Prior to the VFL muscling in on the Sunday market both on TV and in fixturing the VFA was a great community competition. Leagues of Local footy clubs who played on Saturdays used to turn up in droves on Sunday for a beer and to watch to local team. I used to love it.

 

[RogersResults]

The meeting that decided on the founding of a competition separate from the VFA was held on Friday October 2 1896.

The 'golden age' of the VFA was the latter 1930s into the first years of the war. The attendance at the 1939 VFA Grand Final between Williamstown and Brunswick at the MCG was 47,098. (78,110 at the VFL Grand Final). In the following year, 12 months into the war the VFA Grand Final still attracted a crowd of over 30,000.

The VFA had torn up agreements regarding transfer of players with the VFL and had scrapped the equivalent limit on maximum payments to players that applied in the VFL. Stars of the VFL such as Bob Pratt, Ron Todd, Des Fothergill and many others transferred to VFA clubs without clearances to take up offers of significantly more money.

Unfortunately the the war situation saw the VFA unable to keep the competition going and many of the ex-VFL players soon found their way back to their old clubs.

After the war the VFA tried many innovations to compete with the VFL - two divisions with relegation - night football, Sunday football and, live television broadcasts of matches - all before the VFL. Although it had some success in the later 60s and into the 70s, it never recaptured its heyday before 1897 nor its resurgence in the 1930s.

It should always be noted that the VFA for most of the time after 1896 was a separate code of football with its own rules (throw passing, differing numbers of players etc.) Sometimes it was affiliated with the Australian/Australasian (National) Football Council - sometimes not.

From time to time there was talk of amalgamation of the two competitions/codes but nothing came of it. I wonder what the VFA stalwarts of 70 or so years ago would make of the current 'VFL' competition? (It certainly can't attract a crowd of 47,000.)

 

[CrowdedHouse]

The first question can be answered easily enough with Prahran having bidded for a spot. The Two Blues had a small but greatly accessed venue at Toorak Park at their disposal.

Actually, the answer to who would have been in (from the VFA to the VFL), in replacement of Footscray, was Williamstown.

From the three clubs joining in 1925, the VFL made it known that they wanted a Western Suburbs team and Williamstown was the favourite.

However, after the 1924 VFA Premiers Footscray beat the VFL Premiers Essendon (reports have it the dons where paid to throw the game) in a charity match, it aided Footscray's case to be placed ahead of the seagulls.


Another story (from 1896) was that Port Melbourne were supposed to be one of the eight teams to join the VFL, ahead of St Kilda. However, due to the reputation of the rough, dockside workers that followed Port, the Borough were not invited. I reckon we would have faired better than the saints lowly one flag in nearly 120 years!

 

[Bunk Moreland]

Actually, the answer to who would have been in (from the VFA to the VFL), in replacement of Footscray, was Williamstown.

From the three clubs joining in 1925, the VFL made it known that they wanted a Western Suburbs team and Williamstown was the favourite.

However, after the 1924 VFA Premiers Footscray beat the VFL Premiers Essendon (reports have it the dons where paid to throw the game) in a charity match, it aided Footscray's case to be placed ahead of the seagulls.


Another story (from 1896) was that Port Melbourne were supposed to be one of the eight teams to join the VFL, ahead of St Kilda. However, due to the reputation of the rough, dockside workers that followed Port, the Borough were not invited. I reckon we would have faired better than the saints lowly one flag in nearly 120 years!

Yep... from what Ive read St Kilda supposedly had "better" supporters and a better ground.

Interestingly St Kilda later responded to the overtures of Moorabbin FC and the local council who wanted to bring VFL football to Moorabbin Oval (the council had earlier approached Fitzroy and Richmond to relocate). The Saints accepted and moved from St Kilda to Moorabbin.

Moorabbin FC (VFA) seeked a merger with St Kilda as part of this, which never eventuated. This was considered disloyalty by the VFA, who actually booted Moorabbin out of the VFA despite them playing the the previous years GF. The club went into recess and would never return apart from a brief spell in the 1980s. Their demise allowed the entry of Caulfield FC to the VFA.

 

[RogersResults]

May be of interest: R.W.E. Wilmot writing as 'Old Boy' in The Australasian 25 November 1939.


FOOTBALL

AUSTRALIAN football originated in Victoria but it is to the lasting credit of the Victorian Football League and its component clubs that thousands of pounds have been spent in helping the game in other States, particularly in Queensland and New South Wales. More important, however, is it that in establishing the Australian National Football Council the control of the game passed from its hands and left it merely as one of the partners. Its only object is to preserve the national code, and it dare not do anything which would weaken that code. Long ago it might have crushed the Victorian Football Association, which has from time to time departed from the national code. Where the League has seen an innovation to be of benefit to Australian football it has adopted it, but where, as in the case of "throw ball," it realises the danger, it very rightly objects and refuses to be led astray. I have been associated with both the League and Association during their long history, and I know the good each has done in its own particular sphere. The Association controls the outer suburban football of Melbourne, and in that capacity has done service to the game. The Association, however, has its functions, and these do not include law-making.

 

[Kwality]

The VFA was to play the VFL in 1969 at the Carnival but was kicked out for ignoring clearance regulations by the ANFC.

The last VFA carnival side was 1966 & included 1970 brownlow medallist Peter Bedford:
Peter Lawrence Anthony "Wheels" Bedford (born 11 April 1947) is a former Australian Rules footballer andfirst-class cricketer. As a footballer, he is best known for his time at South Melbourne, where he won Victorian Football League's (VFL's) Brownlow Medal in 1970 as the best and fairest in the competition.

Bedford began his football career at Christian Brothers College Victoria Parade, East Melbourne. He began his senior career in the Victorian Football Association, where he played at Port Melbourne Football Club. He was part of the Port Melbourne team which lost the controversial 1967 VFA Grand Final against Dandenong.[1]

At the end of the 1967 football season, Bedford was approached by South Australian National Football League(SANFL) club Port Adelaide with an offer to move to South Australia to play for Port Adelaide as well as for theSouth Australian cricket team.[2] South Australian cricket selector Sir Donald Bradman considered Bedford a leading candidate for the Australian cricket team and urged Bedford to accept the offer from Port.[2]

He played for South Melbourne between 1968 and 1976, playing 178 games and kicking 325 goals. He was the Swans' Best & Fairest on five occasions, leading goalkicker three times and in 1970 he won a Brownlow Medal as the league's best and fairest player.

 

[Silent Alarm]

So Prahran or Williamstown would've likely been the club to step up instead of Footscray, had they never beaten or bribed to beat Essendon? Innnnnnteresting. It's easy how normalised clubs now are. It could've easily been Footscray dead and redundant by the 1970s or 80s and, who knows, the Prahran Double Blues as bigger than Collingwood. Or that Williamstown would be struggling for flag two...

Is there a definitive list of VFA clubs and where they now sit?

 

[Kwality]

So Prahran or Williamstown would've likely been the club to step up instead of Footscray, had they never beaten or bribed to beat Essendon? Innnnnnteresting. It's easy how normalised clubs now are. It could've easily been Footscray dead and redundant by the 1970s or 80s and, who knows, the Prahran Double Blues as bigger than Collingwood. Or that Williamstown would be struggling for flag two...

Is there a definitive list of VFA clubs and where they now sit?

Start with Premiers:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_VFA/VFL_premiers#See_also

 

[Bunk Moreland]

Box Hill - now Box Hill Hawks - VFL
Springvale - now Casey - VFL
Coburg - VFL
Frankston - VFL
Preston - now Northern Blues - VFL
Port Melbourne - VFL
Sandringham - VFL
Werribee - VFL
Williamstown - VFL

Brighton - became Brighton / Caulfield - became Caulfield - folded

Oakleigh - folded

Dandenong - folded

Camberwell - played a season in the VAFA before folding

Kilsyth - now in the EFL

Mordialloc - now in the SFL

Waverley - basically folded, went though a myriad of mergers etc. I think the Waverley Blues in the EFL can probably lay claim to some heritage (many mergers later) - not sure

Brunswick - folded

Geelong West - merged with St Peters, now in GFL

Moorabbin - folded

Northcote - folded

Prahran - VAFA

Sunshine - folded

Yarraville - folded

 

[Bunk Moreland]

A few more from throughout the years

We all know about Carlton, Collingwood, Essendon, Fitzroy, Geelong, Melbourne, St Kilda and South Melbourne - they broke away in 1897.

Richmond moved to the VFL in 1908

Footscray, North and Hawthorn likewise in 1925

Essendon Town joined the VFA in 1900 - a bit of an upstart by locals who didn't support the Essendon VFL club, as they were actually based in East Melbourne at the EMCG. The club folded after the VFL club moved to Windy Hill and effectively kicked them out.

 

[Our Game]

The first question can be answered easily enough with Prahran having bidded for a spot. The Two Blues had a small but greatly accessed venue at Toorak Park at their disposal.

The 2 divisions didn't really start until the 1960's as part of the population boom and greater accessibility to and from the outer suburbs.

Most VFA games even back then would only get a few hundred to a 1000. Unless you went to Port Melbourne. There's a reason why North Port Oval is as it is now. It's been that way for 80-90 years. Yes the finals got good crowds, but, those crowds rarely topped 15000.

North Port had over 25,000 to a couple of VFA GFs in the 1960s and before that the Sunday League got big crowds to NP Oval/Port Melbourne Cricket Ground when it was the only footy played on Sundays in Melbourne
Thats one of the reasons the VFA went after the Sunday market and it worked for them for 25 years.
The VFA shifted their Finals to the Junction Oval/Punt Road/Windy Hill for the period 1965 - 1989 and usually got between 25 and 30,000 to the GF.

I attended the first ever VFA Sunday match at Brunswick's Gillion Oval between Brunswick and Coburg No one knows the exact crowd figure but the ground was full and esitmates had it at 17 - 22,000 They ran out of everything by quarter time LOL
No tickets were sold as the law in those days restricted Sunday sporting events could only ask for a gold coin donation and believe it or not plenty of scumbags refused to pay even a dollar!The law was changed in the 1970's so the clubs could then buy permits and charge an entry fee.
The biggest VFA crowd drawing clubs in the era were Port Melb,Sandringham,Oakleigh,Preston,Coburg,Yarraville.Dandenong,Williamstown and Prahran those clubs could get up to 8 - 12,000 to home games when playing each other.

 

[Dogs till i die]

I consider Marc Fiddian's book on the VFA published in 1977 as the best historical account of the VFA and covers the rise and demise of many of the former clubs (pre 1977). Was written at the time the Association was strong and I still shake my head as to how quickly the demise of the VFA occurred. Hopefully, the remaining stand alone current VFL clubs and AFL aligned former VFA clubs can survive this AFL dominated era.