War has started

[Malibu#27]

Originally posted by Yianni
Using the word BAD is a bad (sorry) example.

The thing that upsets people about Bush is the same thing that upsets people about Hussein when it comes down to it.

I think that a fundamental human right is FREEDOM.

Hussein doesn't allow his people freedom. He's a dictator. He rules through fear and destroys all those who disagree with him.

He suppresses FREEDOM through the abuse of POWER.

People don't like the abuse of power, they see it as unjust.

BUSH also abuses power. The United States has a lot of power, and they use it for their OWN benefit. Noone elses. Sure it may benefit other countries, but be sure that this is only a by-product. Given the choice of doing for them, or doing for someone else, they will do for them.

And BUSH and the US, in exercising this power, in some ways suppress FREEDOM. Freedom to disagree (see the French), freedom to challenge their position economically, freedom of speech even (see a lot of the new anti-terrorism laws)

A lot of people see this, and they don't like it, just like they don't like Hussein. Just because Bush isn't as "in your face" as Husseing, not as much of a textbood baddie, doesn't make what he's doing any different. It's just a line-drawing exercise.

FEAR
Now, how do people get away with this sort of behaviour. The answer is FEAR. In the case of Hussein, people fear direct retribution. In the case of Bush, he (and Howard) work on a broader fear of terrorism, or more generally, fear of the unknown (see also Howard's handling of the Tampa crisis) With enough fear, you can manipulate people into allowing you to do pretty much anything.

So, in conclusion. I'm not saying Bush is right, or Bush is wrong. I'm just saying that when I see the way America runs the world, I get uneasy. When I see the way Hussein treats his people, I get uneasy. Because both stem from unjust use of excessive power.

People in power can either use that power benevolently or selfishly. When I look at George W Bush, I see the latter.

Q.E.D.

But if I had the choice of the two I know who I'd prefer to have on my side.

I know this is an emotional topic and everyone will have differing opinions.


Sometimes I just wish people would give as much benefit of the doubt to our leader (Howard) as they appear to give to others (Saddam).

 

[Yianni]

Originally posted by Malibu#27
that being said, I'm a huge fan of being able to walk down the streets in my country knowing that I'm safe.

See, that's fear. And it's an illusion. You don't KNOW you're safe. You THINK you're safe.

You think that the suburb where you live will be a safer place once there is an American run government in Iraq? I disagree. I think you're believing the hype.

But, as is always the case with hype, that's the whole point.

No fear = No manipulation

 

[Yianni]

Originally posted by Malibu#27
Sometimes I just wish people would give as much benefit of the doubt to our leader (Howard) as they appear to give to others (Saddam).

Nah, I've seen the opportunistic bastard take advantage too many times to trust him anymore.

I used to, but not now...

 

[Malibu#27]

Originally posted by Yianni
See, that's fear. And it's an illusion. You don't KNOW you're safe. You THINK you're safe.

You think that the suburb where you live will be a safer place once there is an American run government in Iraq? I disagree. I think you're believing the hype.

But, as is always the case with hype, that's the whole point.

No fear = No manipulation

I think the world would be a better place if were without terrorism.

IF this is a step to remove such terrorism then I will feel safer.


And trust me .... its not the hype I'm listening to.

 

[Malibu#27]

Originally posted by Yianni
Nah, I've seen the opportunistic bastard take advantage too many times to trust him anymore.

I used to, but not now...

Which opportunistic bastard ...... and when has he taken advantage.

 

[dancingdoggie17]

Originally posted by goaldrush
Nope. The funny thing is that I like John Howard and George Bush. I am loyal to these two people. They have the guts and the determination to go ahead and handle the war on Iraq and terrorism with ease.

It means that the people who are against the war means that they are against everything that the australian government has done.

If you are against the war we will be attacked by terrorists. That's why there is a war against it. We want to prevent terrorism. So give them a taste of their own medicine and bomb them and kill the terrorists and the governments that condone it.

GUTS AND DETERMINATION?? you fool. They will not be in the friggen trenches shooting. Yes! they are so brave. sitting in their million dollar offices in their million dollar suits knowing that when it all comes down to it they don't have to worry because they have enough money to go somewhere else if something bad happens?

DO YOU KNOW HOW TERROR STARTED? It started with wars. It escellated when the USA and USSR used all the other countries to fight their battles. These groups resented these foreginers killing their people. A war will BREED TERROR! it will make more people sad and angry. It will create alot more hate!

 

[Yianni]

Originally posted by Malibu#27
I think the world would be a better place if were without terrorism.

But that's the point. It's an UNWINNABLE fight...

There has always been terrorism and there will always BE terrorism.

I hope to God that I'm wrong, but unless you can somehow stop people having independent thought (and thus stop them disagreeing - 1984 anyone?) then you can NEVER stop terrorism.

A war on terrorism is a war on thought. Extreme thought nonethess but that is the only way to completely wipe it out.

 

[Yianni]

Originally posted by Malibu#27
Which opportunistic bastard ...... and when has he taken advantage.

Howard

Tampa

Election

P.S. See also post on fear

 

[dancingdoggie17]

By the way, what do you guys think about locking up boat people?

If John Howard (and probably most of you pro-war people) really cared about the freedom of the Iraqi people why is it that we have them locked up in our detention centres?

by the way, who DO you care about the Iraqi people?

 

[Malibu#27]

Originally posted by dancingdoggie17
By the way, what do you guys think about locking up boat people?

If John Howard (and probably most of you pro-war people) really cared about the freedom of the Iraqi people why is it that we have them locked up in our detention centres?

by the way, who DO you care about the Iraqi people?

BIG difference,


These are people that are destroying all traces of their identity before entering our country .... why ?


These are also people traveling through numerous countries to come to Australia. Many of these countries are "friendly" nations, and many of these countries have common religous and cultural beleives as those coming here.

I have no trouble with accepting refugees, but they have to be "genuine" refugees ... and they have to play by our rules.

 

[Malibu#27]

Originally posted by Yianni


Howard

Tampa

Election

P.S. See also post on fear

If thats the worst thing he ever does in politics then I think he will have satisfied me.

 

[Scarlett Pimp]

FEAR
For each a road
For everyman a religion
Find everybody and rule
For everything and rumble
Forget everything and remember
For everything a reason
Forgive everybody and remember

For each a road
For everyman a religion
Face everybody and rule
For everything and rumble
Forget everything and remember
For everything a reason

Final eternity arouses reactions
Freeing excellence affects reality
Fallen empires are ruling
Find earth and reef

Fantastic expectations
Amazing revelations
Final execution and resurrection
Free expression as revolution
Finding everything and realizing

You got the fear
F.E.A.R. (You got the fear)

 

[dancingdoggie17]

Originally posted by Malibu#27
BIG difference,


These are people that are destroying all traces of their identity before entering our country .... why ?


These are also people traveling through numerous countries to come to Australia. Many of these countries are "friendly" nations, and many of these countries have common religous and cultural beleives as those coming here.

I have no trouble with accepting refugees, but they have to be "genuine" refugees ... and they have to play by our rules.

ohh yeah, soo tough! "our rules"?? unless you are aboringine you have no say. WE ARE ALL BLOODY BOAT PEOPLE.

Who decides the genuineness? So you're saying that you want to fee the WHOLE OF IRAQ from suddam hussein but the one's here aren't genuine even though they're from the same place?? anyone else confused?

THEY DESTROY ALL THEIR IDENTITIES BECAUSE THEY ARE ALL TERRORISTS AND WANT TO KILL US. why wouldn't the "terrorists" just use someone who's already in here? If they are sophisticated enough to highjack planes why wouldn't they come in the legal way rather than rist their lives? The terrorists would know they would get caught. Also, if they are terrorists wouldn't the other terrorists have saved them by now? Would they just stay in one of our jails?

They come here as a last hope, because they figure at least if they die on the way here they have tried.

 

[Yianni]

Originally posted by Malibu#27
If thats the worst thing he ever does in politics then I think he will have satisfied me.

What? Concocting a complete fabrication, then lying to the entire country, saying that people threw their children overboard.

Think about the process there.

Howard - Well, we could say that they threw their children overboard, then work the "are these the sorts of people we want to have in our country" angle
Advisor - But it's not true sir...
Howard - Meh! Whatever...

 

[dancingdoggie17]

and in all this the word "terror" isn't being used for all the right people.

a terrorist is obviously a person who brings terror into the lives of others. GEORGE BUSH IS ABOUT TO BRING TERROR TO THE LIVES OF 19 OR 22 (can't remember precisely) MILLION PEOPLE. PLUS MORE FROM COUNTRIES AROUND IRAQ.

that makes GEORGE BUSH THE WORLD'S #1 TERRORIST.

 

[Yianni]

Originally posted by Scarlett Pimp
FEAR
You got the fear
F.E.A.R. (You got the fear)

Ian Brown.

SWEET...

 

[eastaugh36]

Originally posted by dancingdoggie17
By the way, what do you guys think about locking up boat people?

If John Howard (and probably most of you pro-war people) really cared about the freedom of the Iraqi people why is it that we have them locked up in our detention centres?

by the way, who DO you care about the Iraqi people?

The boat people should be locked up. They did it the illegal way. Easy. There should be no debate to that issue.

 

[Malibu#27]

Originally posted by dancingdoggie17

ohh yeah, soo tough! "our rules"?? unless you are aboringine you have no say. WE ARE ALL BLOODY BOAT PEOPLE.

Unlike many countries in the world we all have a say ... unless we are under 18.


Who decides the genuineness? So you're saying that you want to fee the WHOLE OF IRAQ from suddam hussein but the one's here aren't genuine even though they're from the same place?? anyone else confused?


The immigration department. Do you really think all of the people that were placed in detention cetres are still there .... no the ones that are still there are the ones that were determined were not genuine.



THEY DESTROY ALL THEIR IDENTITIES BECAUSE THEY ARE ALL TERRORISTS AND WANT TO KILL US. why wouldn't the "terrorists" just use someone who's already in here?


They may well do so. But dont you think its a good idea to know who is coming into our country ? .... why dont we just get rid of Passports and VISAs and say come one come all your all welcome.


If they are sophisticated enough to highjack planes why wouldn't they come in the legal way rather than rist their lives?

At what point did I say that the illegal immigrants were alll (or in fact any of them were) terrorists ?



The terrorists would know they would get caught. Also, if they are terrorists wouldn't the other terrorists have saved them by now? Would they just stay in one of our jails?


Do you have any concept of terrorist mentality ? (GIVEN THAT I HAVE ALREADY STATED THAT I DONT BELEIVE THAT TERRORISTS ARE COMING IN IN THIS MANNER)

Have you ever heard the term "Sleeper cell" ?



They come here as a last hope, because they figure at least if they die on the way here they have tried.


So why dont they stop in any of the many friendly and safe countries along the way ?

 

[Yianni]

Originally posted by dancingdoggie17
a terrorist is obviously a person who brings terror into the lives of others.

Stop being such a literalist.

The word is malleable. It can be used to refer to whoever the U.S. government wants to vilify next...

Osama was a terrorist, now there's a compliant regime in Afghanistan.

Saddam is a terrorist (through about 7 degrees of separation, but it still works, see, malleable)...soon there will be a compliant regime in Baghdad.

Who's next on George W's game of 'WHO WANTS TO BE (LABELLED) A TERRORIST!!'

 

[Malibu#27]

Originally posted by Yianni
What? Concocting a complete fabrication, then lying to the entire country, saying that people threw their children overboard.

Think about the process there.

Howard - Well, we could say that they threw their children overboard, then work the "are these the sorts of people we want to have in our country" angle
Advisor - But it's not true sir...
Howard - Meh! Whatever...

Assuming that that was the chain of events ..

I do not believe that the children overboard affair was the reason that the Liberals got in.

 

[Diego]

Originally posted by Scarlett Pimp
FEAR
For each a road
For everyman a religion
Find everybody and rule
For everything and rumble
Forget everything and remember
For everything a reason
Forgive everybody and remember

For each a road
For everyman a religion
Face everybody and rule
For everything and rumble
Forget everything and remember
For everything a reason

Final eternity arouses reactions
Freeing excellence affects reality
Fallen empires are ruling
Find earth and reef

Fantastic expectations
Amazing revelations
Final execution and resurrection
Free expression as revolution
Finding everything and realizing

You got the fear
F.E.A.R. (You got the fear)

ahhh Ian Brown...i have that on atm!

 

[eastaugh36]

Originally posted by dancingdoggie17
and in all this the word "terror" isn't being used for all the right people.

a terrorist is obviously a person who brings terror into the lives of others. GEORGE BUSH IS ABOUT TO BRING TERROR TO THE LIVES OF 19 OR 22 (can't remember precisely) MILLION PEOPLE. PLUS MORE FROM COUNTRIES AROUND IRAQ.

that makes GEORGE BUSH THE WORLD'S #1 TERRORIST.

Garbage. Bush said in his address that the Iraqi peoples freedom day has come. No more fear for them when this evil regime is eradicated. I liked this part of his speech.
It annoys me these people who bag America, we have a great history and friendship with them dating back to world wars 1 and 2, if it wasnt for them we would be talking japanese.

 

[Scarlett Pimp]

Originally posted by Frosties_Flank
ahhh Ian Brown...i have that on atm!

Good get, Yianni & FF! Wicked clip.

 

[Yianni]

Originally posted by Malibu#27
Assuming that that was the chain of events ..

I do not believe that the children overboard affair was the reason that the Liberals got in.

So you DON'T believe that Howard lied to the nation in the children overboard scandal.

God, how trusting are you!

Believe me. It happened. A member of the navy dobbed them in. He said he could not "in good conscience" (important) allow that story to continue when he knew the truth

Naivete is bliss I imagine

 

[Yianni]

Originally posted by eastaugh36
we have a great history and friendship with them dating back to world wars 1 and 2, if it wasnt for them we would be talking japanese.

Yes. I am very grateful for what they did for us, but that doesn't mean that they'll be good FOREVER, and that we should ALWAYS agree with them, or that they're ALWAYS right.

Hell if that was the logic, then the rules would be that noone could ever disagree with them! Actually...