War

[Carlton_Rules]

What do you guys think about war? Do youse reckon the Allies made the right move to attack?

 

[Loz]

NO BLOODY WAY

 

[JUBJUB]

Originally posted by Carlton_Rules
Do youse reckon the Allies made the right move to attack?

Are the Allies Tasmania,NSW,QLD,N.T & A.C.T ?

Will Voss or Buckley be captain ?

 

[hilly]

Originally posted by Loz
NO BLOODY WAY

Really, what would you have done?

 

[Carlton_Rules]

Re: Re: War

Originally posted by JUBJUB


Are the Allies Tasmania,NSW,QLD,N.T & A.C.T ?

Will Voss or Buckley be captain ?

The allies of americans and the english

 

[hilly]

Originally posted by Carlton_Rules


The allies of americans and the english

I think jubjub was taking the piss

 

[daddy_4_eyes]

It was the right move in the sense that terrorism should be wiped out and not tolerated in any way.

It was the wrong move in the sense that this may bring about a much bigger war, maybe even WW3.

The other Arab nations just had a meeting a few days back, and though they support the US (probably through fear), they have warned that they will not tolerate attacks on any nation other than Afganistan. What happens if Bin Laden moves his forces to Iraq or some other traditional american enemy ?? Suddenly Bin Laden will be on the verge of having 1bln muslims and their nations supporting him if the US attacks, or freedom to reign more terror without the fear of US retaliation.

But I think the attack had to happen, otherwise the US and its allies would look like they fear terrorists and leave themselves open to even more attacks.

 

[FreoDocker]

I think one of the big mistakes of the handling of the situation was Bush using the words "crusade against terrorism". The whole idea of the crusades in the middle ages were to convert the muslim lands to christianity. Although since then he has said many times, it is not a war against islam or muslims, I just thought that his reference to crusade was very unfortunate.

However I agree that something had to be done by the US, and it's attack on the terrorist camps in Afghanistan are warranted, but I hope civilian casualties are avoided at all costs.

 

[Smokin]

They had no choice but to attack.

Geez, they gave them a month to clean up their **** and give up Bid Laden, or they knew EXACTLY what to expect.

They chose to do what they did - nothing!

They knew this was coming - dont blame America, blame the Taliban for the deaths in Afghanistan.

If a country is harbouring terrorists they are at risk of attack. They know that, and they know their own people will then be at risk. If he tries to run to Iraq, and they take him and protect him, they know 100% they will be on the USA's hitlist. At least they are entitled to choice, just like every other country.

Whatever they do is their choice.

Your with us or your not - this is war, not marbles.

I wouldnt be suprised if Taliban members start turning on bin laden. Here you have a nutcase calling out for all to die for the cause blah blah, then is hiding like a germ and scared to show his face anywhere. He is ****ting himself. If he was half the man he thinks he is, why has he been in hiding for so long?

 

[Loz]

I do not believe that Bin Laden is actually the mastermind behind all the attacks. He is just a figurehead.
But i don't see how bombing afghanastan is going to achieve anything in the short or long term

 

[AlfAndrews]

Originally posted by daddy_4_eyes
... But I think the attack had to happen, otherwise the US and its allies would look like they fear terrorists and leave themselves open to even more attacks ...

Well ... two points need to be made.

1.The U.S. and its allies ARE, in fact, absolutely terrified of future terrorist attacks. That's why, despite the brave face they are putting on, and despite all the talk about business as usual, they are, in fact, doing anything BUT business as usual. Their tourism industries are shot to bits. Sporting tours are being cancelled. People are absolutely crapping themselves with fear.

2.The other point is that, despite bombing the living daylights out of Afghanistan, the Yanks and their allies are just as wide open to terrorist attacks as they would have been if they'd done nothing.

No matter how many bombs the Yanks drop ... no matter how many alleged terrorists they blow up ... no matter how tough their spin doctors make them look ... they are not going to win this one. Because it's an unwinnable war. Because every time you kill a terrorist, you fuel the sort of hatred that will create the next generation of terrorists.

George Bush has seized this moment in history to make a name for himself. He's certainly doing that. He will go down as one of the biggest idiots in human history. He will be forever remember as the man who presided over America's decline as a world power.

The only winning move available to America is to completely rethink its whole approach to foreign policy ... which, of course, would impact on its domestic policy ... which, in turn, would require a complete rethink of the entire basis of the American/western way of life.

Fat chance of that ever happening.

My advice to America ... for what it's worth ...

**BE HUMBLE ... OR BE HUMILIATED**

 

[RogerC]

Alf, I agree with you, to a point. American attacks on Afghanistan will achieve diddly squat. Terrorism is global. The attacks on the World Trade Centre, etc. came from within the USA. How an attack of the type the US military has launched will stop terrorism is anyone's guess.

The bigger the attack on Afghanistan, the more concentrated the hatred against the USA. This isn't the Gulf War, and it isn't World War II. The enemy isn't a state or a country, and by attacking a country to respond to a fanatical act all we can do is galvanise anti-Christian sentiment. Support for the US amongst Muslim countries has been notably luke-warm, and frankly I can't see them getting any more enthusiastic about the West in the near future. No matter how much we say the fight is not against Muslims.

On the other hand, I don't see what else Dubbya could do. To do nothing would be to invite criticism, especially by any right wing groups in the USA. And in the event of another terrorist act, lack of response by the incumbent government would cause a political backlash that would bring them down. They had to do something. Even if it is ultimately futile.

It's a difficult situation that requires level heads and tactical nous. Not a lot of that has been demonstrated so far. September 11 has created a rift between East and West that's been a long time coming. How we handle it is going to have severe ramifications for the future of the world. So far the signs aren't all that good.

 

[Mobbs]

Justice and security are fair goals here, but who can trust the US to keep on track with their goals. Vengeance , or simply lapping up the opportunity to dig the claws into another arena, is wrong.

Big blur between justice and vengeance at the moment.

Perhaps this incident's causing of the establishment of a couple of global judicial groups (eg anti-terrorism coalition) might create a power big enough to stand up to the US when they decide they want to go bomb another few nations to see if any terrorists run out.

The best thing I've heard so far is to learn that Cheney is looking swell

 

[Smokin]

No, Terrorism is pretty much impossible to stop period.

However, like the mafia in the US, it can be severly crippled to a point where it is hardly the threat it used to be.

When the FBI first went after the Mafia, they were told they were fighting an invisible enemy, and one they couldnt beat. These were mad italians who didnt live by rules, didnt talk and were ruthless. There are similarities between the then mafia and terrorists today - of course the mafia didnt go after the innocent, lived more in their own world.

Geez, the FBI at one stage was so worried and felt so helpless they refused to achnowledge there was any 'mafia' or organised crime network in the country.

However, the mafia couldnt be effective without having the courts, government, police, investigative groups and influencial people on side. That it what made them so powerful.

The authorities had to work out first how they operated, then cut off their necessities to operate like they do.

Same here with terrorism. These guys cant be nearly as effective without the states sponsorship which they get. Funding is imperative, obviously, as well as channels to intelligence, fake documentation and corruption.

The US will, probably have (Bin Laden and his group have been wanted and monitored for over 10 years) worked out what needs to be done to limit these guys.

If a goverment of a national wants to harbour and support them, they know what they are in for.

Just like a corrupt Mafia judge - he knows the risks he is taking.

Without money, funded terrorist camps, a state sponsor, channels to intelligence and fake ID's, the effectiveness of these groups is obviously limited.

For example, say an Aussie was behind all this. If he didnt have the support of the Australian Goverment, he would be a gone man because the US would work with the Australian authorities to break the network down. No protection.

However, should Australia refuse to help the US, and protect/support the terrorist, the US would have to declare war and attack Australia.

The US isnt attacking Afghanistan because it feels like it.

Hell, it didnt want to, the US asked for local support, which it has sorta recieved off Pakistan, but the Taliban is still supporting the Bin Laden network. They were given a month to comply and they didnt. They are obviously linked, and they are now paying the price.

Mobbenfuhrer, you make it sound like the US is just attacking for the sake of attacking. Just see who pops out.

Thats rubbish.

The US will, and should, attack and stop any nation (west, east, north or south!) who openly declares they sponser and harbour terrorism.

What annoys me is media potraying these little extrimest groups is certain countries, like Pakistan, who are protesting agains the US. These are minority groups, not necessarily the thinking of the country, yet the country is potrayed differently. This isnt a holy war, but they are trying to make it one. Its the only way they can get support.

Yes, Terrorism is global, yet it can all be traced back to one source, or group of sources.

You think the terrorists paying for flight schools in the US paid there own way? You reckon the terrorists living abroad are all paying their own way? You reckon every taliban or Bin Laden soldier is paying for their own weapons?

Just as the mafia infiltrated itself throughout the whole of the US and abroad, its roots and core centre were logistically placed in either NY, Chicago, Palermo, Calabria, Mississippi etc.

The FBI didnt have to attack every single square metre on earth - it chopped down the tree, and the branches fell with it.

Mafia soldiers couldnt survive without the family's funding and support. Once they realised the money had dried up - they went missing, they had no protection or choice. Then they crumbled, gave evidence to police, and basically destroyed themsevles.

Just like terrorists cant survive without funding and support.

Yea, I know the mafia is still running around in the US - at a fraction of its effectivness tho.

I never said we will rid the world of terrorism, but in regards to global terrorism, we can at least limit or reduce its effectiveness.

You watch, these terrorist networks will start to crumble. They already are, some already talking and giving evidence to authorites. Just like members of the mafia did. Many members of the taliban have already tried to flee.

To say the attacks are not or will not achieve anything is laughable.

At the very least, the next potential terrorist knows the extent the US will go to if they want to try any funny business. Must be at least some sort of deterant.

At it will make other nations at least think twice before harbouring or sponsoring such groups.

They will achieve more than that tho. Cracks are already appearing and we have just begun.

 

[Carlton_Rules]

good point smokin

 

[daddy_4_eyes]

Originally posted by AlfAndrews
The only winning move available to America is to completely rethink its whole approach to foreign policy ... which, of course, would impact on its domestic policy ... which, in turn, would require a complete rethink of the entire basis of the American/western way of life.

Fat chance of that ever happening.

My advice to America ... for what it's worth ...

**BE HUMBLE ... OR BE HUMILIATED**

You are so wrong its not funny. What you are saying is that America is responsible for the terrorist attacks, just because they believe everyone is entitled to freedom.

And to prevent future terrorist attacks you are suggesting that the US changes their way of life to the Talibans ways? Because that would be the only political solution Bin Laden and the afgans would agree to.

The US should bomb the living shi_t out of the afgans until they surrender, and any other country which is considering harbouring or sponsoring terrorism will think twice.

 

[Mobbs]

Well it depends on whether the US is doing this for the right reasons. I don't believe it. I think its just a handy excuse.

As soon as a puppetry-in-motion ensemble get involved in something that seems like its for the good of the people, or the good of the nation ... I've always felt that it was time to worry.

 

[Striking Back]

Originally posted by daddy_4_eyes


You are so wrong its not funny. What you are saying is that America is responsible for the terrorist attacks, just because they believe everyone is entitled to freedom.

And to prevent future terrorist attacks you are suggesting that the US changes their way of life to the Talibans ways? Because that would be the only political solution Bin Laden and the afgans would agree to.

The US should bomb the living shi_t out of the afgans until they surrender, and any other country which is considering harbouring or sponsoring terrorism will think twice.

Exactly!
the Taliban have been given more than one opportunity to resolve the matter but are completely defiant and in fact still verbal threaten the USA and its Allies.
Bomb the **** out of them is the correct approach.

 

[Smokin]

Originally posted by Mobbenfuhrer
Well it depends on whether the US is doing this for the right reasons. I don't believe it. I think its just a handy excuse.

Yea, I guess having two important buildings and thousands of innocent people die is just a handy excuse to some hidden agenda huh??

After what happened, they gave the Taliban a month - nearly 30 days to make a decision.

They decided to harbour terrorism.

Yea, but its not there fault. I mean we should allow terrorism eh!

This is the US's fault! How dare they attack people that cowardly attacked them from behind!

Bloody Americans!

What do you suggest they do? Should Bush ring up Bin Laden on his mobile and organise to meet for coffee at Lygon St. to work this all out?

I think the response from the US has been perfect so far. They didnt go bezerk straight away, they gave themselves time to work things out. They collected evidence which was overwhelming, even admitted by middle eastern and muslim countries. (Even tho this has nothing to do with race or regligion, Bin Laden wants it to be, its the only way he can gain support - but its not about that, its just an attempt by the idiots to try and gain support they desperatly need).

They told the Taliban the story - and to hand members of the network over. They Taliban spat in their faces bascially, to protect the man and network who ordered the death of many innocent people in a time of peace, not war - then it started.

It seems there are a few fanatics here and there condeming what the US has done - what is their argument? What do they say the US should have done?

 

[Briedis]

Originally posted by Smokin


Yea, I guess having two important buildings and thousands of innocent people die is just a handy excuse to some hidden agenda huh??

After what happened, they gave the Taliban a month - nearly 30 days to make a decision.

They decided to harbour terrorism.

Yea, but its not there fault. I mean we should allow terrorism eh!

This is the US's fault! How dare they attack people that cowardly attacked them from behind!

Bloody Americans!

What do you suggest they do? Should Bush ring up Bin Laden on his mobile and organise to meet for coffee at Lygon St. to work this all out?

I think the response from the US has been perfect so far. They didnt go bezerk straight away, they gave themselves time to work things out. They collected evidence which was overwhelming, even admitted by middle eastern and muslim countries. (Even tho this has nothing to do with race or regligion, Bin Laden wants it to be, its the only way he can gain support - but its not about that, its just an attempt by the idiots to try and gain support they desperatly need).

They told the Taliban the story - and to hand members of the network over. They Taliban spat in their faces bascially, to protect the man and network who ordered the death of many innocent people in a time of peace, not war - then it started.

It seems there are a few fanatics here and there condeming what the US has done - what is their argument? What do they say the US should have done?

The US have never given the Taliban the evidence of Bin Laden guilt. This is why they won't turn him over. Today they again asked to US to provide the edivence and, if provided, they will turn Bin Laden over, and Bush refused.

It seems like Bush has something to hide when he refuses to show the Taliban this evidence.

Also, considering that on day three of the strikes, the US planes were returning to their bases with 90% of the payloads still intact, because "there is nothing left to bomb" - why are they continuing to bomb Afghanistan?

I am for the fight against Terrorism, but I can not see how the current bombings are helping. It seems more aimed at helping Bush's political career than anything else.

Revenge is a dish best served cold.

Just a question, does anyone actually know what the evidence was that they got against Bin Laden? I'm not being smart here, just curious.

 

[Powder Keg]

The PM of England ,Tony Blair has stated he has seen the evidence.

If the Taliban were sure bin Laden WAS NOT the culprit they would give him up to face a fair trial where his guilt would be determined.

 

[Blues_Brat]

Originally posted by AlfAndrews


Well ... two points need to be made.

1.The U.S. and its allies ARE, in fact, absolutely terrified of future terrorist attacks. That's why, despite the brave face they are putting on, and despite all the talk about business as usual, they are, in fact, doing anything BUT business as usual. Their tourism industries are shot to bits. Sporting tours are being cancelled. People are absolutely crapping themselves with fear.

2.The other point is that, despite bombing the living daylights out of Afghanistan, the Yanks and their allies are just as wide open to terrorist attacks as they would have been if they'd done nothing.

No matter how many bombs the Yanks drop ... no matter how many alleged terrorists they blow up ... no matter how tough their spin doctors make them look ... they are not going to win this one. Because it's an unwinnable war. Because every time you kill a terrorist, you fuel the sort of hatred that will create the next generation of terrorists.

George Bush has seized this moment in history to make a name for himself. He's certainly doing that. He will go down as one of the biggest idiots in human history. He will be forever remember as the man who presided over America's decline as a world power.

The only winning move available to America is to completely rethink its whole approach to foreign policy ... which, of course, would impact on its domestic policy ... which, in turn, would require a complete rethink of the entire basis of the American/western way of life.

Fat chance of that ever happening.

My advice to America ... for what it's worth ...

**BE HUMBLE ... OR BE HUMILIATED**

Alf, I have to fully agree with you here.

 

[Smokin]

Dunno exactly what evidence there was, we may never find out exactly.

The Taliban wont come to the party in regards to evidence. They are saying they want evidence, yet wont look at it - because the evidence is against them as much as "bin laden".

Pakistan said they were happy with the Evidence - it is apparently so overwhelming its basically a non issue. I dont think any nation who has seen the evidence disputes it at all. Bin Ladin and the Taliban are directly linked to the terrorist attacks. They dont want the evidence, because they are Bin Ladin - there is no real point to make a distinction here.

Besides, Bin Laden himself has admitted to having committed crimes against the US in the past.

IF he isnt quilty of this, there is pretty good evidence (his word for f#cks sake!) that he has comitted crime(s) in the past. Isnt that reason enough to at least hand him over? Of course it is, but the Taliban wont - they are bin laden, they will just use the "evidence" argument over and over because thats all they have.

The Taliban dont care - they are one and the same basically. Bin Ladens daughter is married to the head of the Taliban. From reports Bin Laden basically is effecively running the Taliban anyway.

The Bombing is working - are you watching the news? Over 1800 Taliban fighters have already tried to jump ship and join the Northern Alliance! Leaders of the Taliban have tried to flee to pakistan! They are giving evidence to authorities against themselves - They are crumbling! You watch, more and more will turn on themselves like they already are doing. The bombing is basically going perfectly to plan so far.

Thing is, the US just cant stop, pack up and go home, because the core of the problem is still there - in bunkers etc. The US is preparing a ground assault. The air strikes are simply softening them up for the real attack.

The real attack hasnt started yet.

This attack wont be limited to Bin Laden, Al queda nor the Taliban. Any other nation who harbours or continues to support terrorism will be attacked as well.

Still, the people against the bombing dont seem to have any argument at all. Those CNN teleconference things highlight this - they link up people from everwhere to give their opinions, yet everyone against the US have no argument, they are made to look like idiots on world television. Sad thing is, I dont know wheather to laugh or cry! The hatred against america is blinding their own common sense.

 

[Smokin]

Originally posted by Blues_Brat


Alf, I have to fully agree with you here.

There is so much wrong with Alf Andrews post that it is not even worth replying to it.

 

[Briedis]

Smokin,

I hope you ARE right and that the bombing is doing something to stop terrorism.

One question though. If the Taliban have SEEN the evidence against Bin Laden, why would they continue to ask for the US to produce it? I can understand why they wouldn't take their enemy's word for it.

I find it hard to believe the US news as it is riddled with propaganda. As I am sure is the Talibans. They are hardly going to say the whole thing is not working are they? Normally I would check the BBC for a more balanced view, but they would be tainted as well in this conflict. Just be aware that what we are fed here via the news is going to be biased in favour of the US.