Opinion What are our current areas of concern or improvement required

[Arr0w]

Plenty of discussion being had regarding concerns or improvements needed across all areas of the football department. Many people might believe it's one area that needs more focus, others might have more of a shared responsibility across all areas

Of course these are merely opinions, but it could be healthy for discussions to understand people's views

Add a percentage to the following areas, elaborate if you feel a more detailed analysis is required for people to understand your stance

• Coaching/Gamplan
• List Management
• HP/Rehab
• Player Commitment

Share your views, might be a decent starting point as the season progresses

 

[Arr0w]

My snapshot for now

• 15% - Coaching/Gamplan
• 50% - List Management
• 20% - HP/Rehab
• 15% - Player Commitment

Edited

 

[Juddernaut08]

90% - Coaching/Gameplan We don't have a good senior coach, and our strategy is very poor. He's Temu Leon Cameron.

8% - List Management We have targeted the wrong type of players for awhile now, though we do still have a lot of starpower on the list that should be performing better than they have been.

2% - HP/Rehab Comes down ultimately to the injury prone dudes we've had. 2% for the mismanagement of Charlie.

0% - Player commitment The effort is there. But they have to run 20% more than well-coached teams to achieve the same output. We have an unsustainable gameplan.

 

[Arr0w]

Of course, and like I said in the past, Austin is accountable as well.

But, I listed every draft pick and recruit he has gone for (I think other than SSP picks) in the list management thread...

I've got more of the same to what you've said... he picked the wrong players. Ok, fair enough, but then again, who should he have picked given it's no well kept secret Voss was after durable, running types? The only answer I somewhat got was, Gallagher and Richards - lmfao.

As for Austin outside the draft, he recruited Williams to be a mid on a what had to be massive contract - fail
Pick 8 for Saad - fail
Pick 6 for Cerra - I'm 50/50 on this
Jagga is too early to tell - ACL is no one's fault

Ive dragged it over to here

My concerns early on with Austin and it has been confirmed in the last couple of seasons, that he is very conservative. High floor, low ceiling.

It's not just about the picks he has taken, it's how he has arrived at those picks with the trades he has completed

Each year I share my thoughts on draftees:

I had a number of players ahead of Ollie for that run/speed/ball use that were still on the board. Weddle was a standout for me for that role. Cowan was a solid pick, Binns, I would have taken Dowling for that role

I won't go through other years, but its all there for everyone to view, hits and misses

As for trades, I was very critical in the Saad deal at the time, not so much the player or pick, but the timing. When you look to spend that currency on a HB, you really want to have cemented yourself in finals, before doing that type of deal

Happy with Cerra, at the time, at least he was a young mid. I actually wanted him instead of Dow in his draft year

Jagga will be a very good player, if he recovers and keeps his step and sideways movement, but I would never give up 2 x 1sts and a 2nd for a draftee, certainly not a mid only

 

[Its an amigo!]

90% - Coaching/Gameplan We don't have a good senior coach, and our strategy is very poor. He's Temu Leon Cameron.

8% - List Management We have targeted the wrong type of players for awhile now, though we do still have a lot of starpower on the list that should be performing better than they have been.

2% - HP/Rehab Comes down ultimately to the injury prone dudes we've had. 2% for the mismanagement of Charlie.

0% - Player commitment The effort is there. But they have to run 20% more than well-coached teams to achieve the same output. We have an unsustainable gameplan.

I agree with all this. Put this down as my answer too.

I'd just add that in the coaching part - team selection/player positioning is often really poor in the last 12 months especially.

 

[Gointocarlton]

• Coaching/Gamplan 10%
• List Management 70%
• HP/Rehab 20%
• Player Commitment 0%

Can I assume basic skills and basic execution of those skill comes under List Management? To my way of thinking, if we have to coach/teach basic skills, we drafted the wrong player(s).

I think our list has half a dozen genuine stars then it falls away quickly and is a real problem. It's hard to design a game plane around blokes who spray kicks and handballs, drop chest marks and fumble the footy.

Injuries have slaughtered us but its not the biggest problem.

I dont see a problem with commitment from the players.

 

[TheBlueCampaigner]

45% List management- too many non goal kicking small forwards, next to no coverage for Weitering and short on outside run. These areas have been deficient for years and for some reason not addressed.

45% Coaching- (it’s all been said before) basic game plan that’s taxing on the players and relies on our A graders to dominate to win. Next to no scoring from the the defensive half, few chain outs etc. Very few in game
adjustments made.

10% Player effort. Not concerned..yet

0% Rehab/Conditioning- preparing to give the new bloke a chance at this point

 

[Blue_Fusion]

Ive dragged it over to here

My concerns early on with Austin and it has been confirmed in the last couple of seasons, that he is very conservative. High floor, low ceiling.

It's not just about the picks he has taken, it's how he has arrived at those picks with the trades he has completed

Each year I share my thoughts on draftees:

I had a number of players ahead of Ollie for that run/speed/ball use that were still on the board. Weddle was a standout for me for that role. Cowand was a solid pick, Binns, I would have taken Dowling for that role

I won't go through other years, but its all there for everyone to view, hits and misses

As for trades, I was very critical in the Saad deal at the time, not so much the player or pick, but the timing. When you look to spend that currency on a HB, you really want to have cemented yourself in finals, before doing that type of deal

Happy with Cerra, at the time, at least he was a young mid. I actually wanted him instead of Dow in his draft year

Jagga will be a very good player, if he recovers and keeps his step and sideways movement, but I would never give up 2 x 1sts and a 2nd for a draftee, certainly not a mid only

Fair enough.

Although, for some reason, I do recall you thinking that Dow would go #1 at some stage... but my memory isn't what it used to be...

I was happy with Cerra at the time too, reason I'm 50/50 and it's not Austin's fault, that his hamstring issues have put a halt to his form and confidence, and if he can't overcome them, then he will be seen as a failure too as harsh as that is. He's had a good start to the season though, so hopefully all behind him now.

Dowling, too early to tell, but he wouldn't make much of a difference at this stage.

I like the bold move to climb the draft order and pick up Jagga. It's his first real crack at a mid in the pointy end of the draft so let's see how it plays out...

One more thing to add to that, Voss wanted Houston... and iinm, it was Austin who wanted to climb the draft order... he knows our midfield is one Cripps injury away from capitulation and we desperately needed to bring in a kid with star potential...

Unfortunately, SOS's poor mid recruiting + the type Voss wanted to bring in have resulted in us having a one dimensional midfield mix... it makes our back line and forward line look worse too...

More often than not, our half backs literally have no one to kick to... because the mids don't spread, they don't work to get into space and we're left with taking the safe option of kicking long up the wing. They also don't apply enough defensive pressure, don't run both ways... our back line is put under immense pressure... without Newman to help Weiters we are leaking like a sieve back there. Haynes was meant to be an experienced recruit to help sure up the defensive structure but he's been a massive flop so far.

As good as Houston is, there's no way he's hitting Motlop on the chest with 2-3 opponents on him... let alone Lucas Camporeale in his first game... you can see even weak side like Richmond picked up on this and knew that's where the kick was going...

 

[btdg]

I think 50% culture. We still don't really understand how to be successful as a club. To sum up a complex area, we are way too all or nothing. We are either premiership favourites after a 3 game winning streak, or we are wooden spooners. Our players are superstars or duds. It's success or failure, never any realistic appraisal and certainly never any growth, and that means that the second we have a bad spot it's gloom and doom. We have a collective Messiah complex and are always looking for the saviour who will fix things, then crucify them when it doesn't work Our fans are vile after losses (and while I have had moments, it's a huge problem for us and getting worse). Our board is a bunch of corporate crooks and a plaything for rich investment bankers, which is somehow the only possible downgrade from what the Elliott/Mathieson year's.

Then to me it is 20% luck. We have barely had a father son or academy player for years. COVID hit an awful time in our rebuild/handover to Teague. Docherty won all Australian then did his knee and missed two full years, then got cancer. Curnow had a breakout game then did his knee and missed 2.5 years. You can go on and on with injuries... Even historically we got caught by bad timing and gave up our suburban ground, we got caught by the expansion drafts, we got shafted by changes to the ruck and sub rules, eve our salary cap scandal happened at the worst possible time (and cost us 3x top 4 draft picks and more). It happens, I guess.

20% is list management. We blew the best of our rebuild by panicking when success took longer than we thought and spent too much overpaying McGovern, Williams, Saad, Cerra. All solid players but only B graders. Now they have aged and we have lost all our depth players, and have a paper thin list. The only solution seems to be to pray that low tier draftees come good, or let TDK (or McKay?/Curnow?) go and replace him with 3-4 others just to put a competitive team on the park. Fortunately our father/son luck seems to have changed (just in time for draft rules to change...) but we should at least get Harry Dean, the Walkers, to go with the Camporeale brothers and that will help.

10% is coaching. We are a brutally tough club to coach. Voss has the best winning record of any Carlton coach this century and people want him sacked because we lost one match to Richmond and because what our badly thought out list is not winning. The second best coaching record this century was Ratten, who we chased out after 3 straight finals appearances because he had one 'down' and we 'only' went 11-11 (we didn't reach that mark for 10 years afterwards...). Voss isn't an amazing coach, but also, no one else wanted to coach us because of our culture, and he did, and he has given us more joy than anyone since Parkin, so I dunno, let's try to be reasonable here. Voss was maybe one of the few coaches who could turn us around after our decade long malaise, took us to our only prelim final in 25 years... His game plan is frustrating... But things could be a LOT worse, (and usually are for Carlton...)

I will add, that it is also 20% not as bad as it seems (see the top again). We aren't winning the premiership this year, and that's fine. We lost to Hawthorn, and so will many teams - we actually defended them well and were competitive with almost literally no forward line. This is a retooling year, which many teams have - we might drop as low as bottom 4, and it could still be a successful year if we figure out some structural things, rehab some guys who are injured, and get some blood into the young guys... Two straight finals (unlucky not to be 3), not unusual to drop off slightly then build back for next year...

 

[lukep_86]

50% coaching/game plan. We're way too slow and haven't adapted to the modern game. We work so hard for our goals and our game style is very taxing on our players. Voss and Co. can be very slow to react on game day.

40% list management. Lots of mistakes over the years, including Williams and Gov. Went for similar types for too long, and didn't do for players with good skills, pace or both. Goes hand in hand with the game plan IMO.

10% high performance/rehab. Don't even need to comment on this.

 

[Arr0w]

Fair enough.

Although, for some reason, I do recall you thinking that Dow would go #1 at some stage... but my memory isn't what it used to be...

I did have Dow at number 1 early in the draft year, but prior to the draft, I had Bradshaw, Cerra, Constable ahead of him

I was happy with Cerra at the time too, reason I'm 50/50 and it's not Austin's fault, that his hamstring issues have put a halt to his form and confidence, and if he can't overcome them, then he will be seen as a failure too as harsh as that is. He's had a good start to the season though, so hopefully all behind him now.

Agreed

Dowling, too early to tell, but he wouldn't make much of a difference at this stage.

Absolutely its early, but I felt he was criminally underrated in his draft year. Robust type that runs all day and a much more reliable user compared to Binns. Will be tough breaking into that Crows side, who I believe will make the 8

I like the bold move to climb the draft order and pick up Jagga. It's his first real crack at a mid in the pointy end of the draft so let's see how it plays out...

Bold yes, but I have never been a fan of trading multiple picks to get to the pointy end for a predominant mid only. I was also a big advocate for trading back our first pick in the Walsh draft, or taking Smith, which I copped plenty of criticism

I still see Jagga as a Butters type, but not sure he has that level of hardness

One more thing to add to that, Voss wanted Houston... and iinm, it was Austin who wanted to climb the draft order... he knows our midfield is one Cripps injury away from capitulation and we desperately needed to bring in a kid with star potential...

There is always a cost limit, it was always more than a single 1st rounder, but none of us know what our cost was at the time.

This perennial, we have a younger longer term player is flawed. It's like we have acquired a replacement for Kennedy in Lord (I actually see him more as a Hewett type), but the type is exactly the same, more of what we have an excess of on out list

Unfortunately, SOS's poor mid recruiting + the type Voss wanted to bring in have resulted in us having a one dimensional midfield mix... it makes our back line and forward line look worse too...

I fail to see what you are eluding to, as to the type Voss wanted. If it was a player with run and foot skills, not sure why Austin would think he wanted Ollie over say a waddle

More often than not, our half backs literally have no one to kick to... because the mids don't spread, they don't work to get into space and we're left with taking the safe option of kicking long up the wing.

Perhaps having drafted leg speed and kicking skills might help in that area

They also don't apply enough defensive pressure, don't run both ways... our back line is put under immense pressure... without Newman to help Weiters we are leaking like a sieve back there. Haynes was meant to be an experienced recruit to help sure up the defensive structure but he's been a massive flop so far.

I agree, Newman was always going to be a massive loss, but IMHO, pressure comes back to player intent and commitment

As good as Houston is, there's no way he's hitting Motlop on the chest with 2-3 opponents on him... let alone Lucas Camporeale in his first game... you can see even weak side like Richmond picked up on this and knew that's where the kick was going...

Houston or any player that has run and carry is going to hit way more targets than the likes of Ollie, Saad, Cowan or even Doc coming off the backline. Again, I get it was cost related. My main gripe is not that we missed on Houston, is that we essentially gave the opportunityto draft 2 more options compared to Jagga. Three cracks at talent, rather than 1

 

[katmanblue]

Hit a ****en target.

Move ahead of the ball. Give the kicker options. Make space for each other. Block, Shepperd and support teammates.

Run through blokes standing in front of you. Ragdoll players when you tackle them. Grind them into the ground as you get up. We cop this treatment every week and never dish it out.

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[bradfisher14]

I know this will come across as very simplistic, but I believe that a better head coach and head of footy would be the panacea to all areas:

• Obviously there would be an upturn in on-field performances/results with a better coach
• An elite coach/HoF would be able to attract a better quality of assistant coaches/support staff
• Better results mean that the rest of the footy department staff can spend more time doing their jobs instead of trying to help the senior coach turn things around
• Players are more likely to "buy in" when they are surrounded by elite people in leadership positions (HC and HoF). This means more enthusiastic training of tactics/skills AND greater resilience to withstand/return from injury.

 

[Stamos]

40% coaching

35% fitness/injury/rehab/HP/player availability etc.

12.5% mental/confidence/buy in

12.5% list management

 

[lukep_86]

Hit a ****en target.

Move ahead of the ball. Give the kicker options. Make space for each other. Block, Shepperd and support teammates.

Run through blokes standing in front of you. Ragdoll players when you tackle them. Grind them into the ground as you get up. We cop this treatment every week and never dish it out.

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These are basics that pretty much any player can do but for whatever reason, we don't. What's even more surprising is this is how exactly how Brisbane played when Vossy was there, they were ruthless, and he hasn't implemented any of it.

 

[BluesFanatic2025]

We have our key forward on $800k+ saying a flag is not the reason to play footy. Our Club focuses on different causes (though worthwhile).

We need one mission statement - “Carlton exists to win Premierships”

We need to be ruthless in our pursuit of this. That needs to be in the dna of everyone at the club

 

[ITCHY EYEBALLS]

David King on the Crack or whatever it is said it’s a really simple adjustment to our game style, basically use the options being presented to you. We lack composure, I’ve said it a thousand times.
So I’m saying coaching 20% atm, I assume they’re saying the same things behind closed door….by god I hope they are.
Player confidence 50%…..I think this is the main issue, they just seem afraid to take the game on and are in self preservation mode…..why? IDK
List management 30%, it definitely needs to improve. Target moneyball types to fill a need, like the Cats/Pies have done so well for a number of years now.
Fitness guy gets a pass for the minute, 0%

 

[SkyhorseTamer]

Football department.... From talent ID to development to how they train to how the players are 'deployed' by the coaching teams and how these arms interact with each other...

Doesn't seem cohesive or correct.

 

[Gethelred]

Players taking 'indefinite leave' prior to round 1, and 2 weeks into the season...

 

[Juddernaut08]

I agree with all this. Put this down as my answer too.

I'd just add that in the coaching part - team selection/player positioning is often really poor in the last 12 months especially.

Agreed - playing 5 KPDs against Hawthorn's notoriously small and fast forwardline was diabolically maddening.

 

[Jimmyonesix]

Mental fragility --

Fwds pressing way to far up in defence --

Fix these we be good

 

[swuzzlebubble]

Football

 

[Chemical]

Everywhere

 

[Accidental genius]

Outdated basic bash and crash game style…that’s one of the key underlying issues.

Of course the list can be improved as well.

 

[Bale Dup]

We have the worst disposal efficiency in the league [emoji19]

What's that down to?

1) Recruiting poorly skilled players
2) Players' poor execution of skills
3) Poor/lack of coaching of skills
4) Game plan/style causing disposals to be rushed
5) Low IQ footballers

Or, a combination of some or all the above?

I'm not sure [emoji53]




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