What PEDs are available as tablets?

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Ancient Tiger said:
Beat me to it Chameleon.

And when you get a "low testosterone" in Dank's eyes, what is he going to do to raise it?
Tribulus? That has never been shown to categorically work (some poor studies withstanding).

And considering how long it takes for testosterone to start having an effect, you would need to take several levels over a period time to show consistently low levels before you would do anything about it in otherwise healthy young men.
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Also if you do determine its low but in the normal range, what do you do? Any medical intervention is doping. Alternatively if its below the normal range thats a medical condition, whats the probability that the list as a whole has a pituitary disorder? Not likely at all.

They're monitoring testo levels to make sure they're not going to piss hot. TE ratios is what they're checking imo.
 
andrewb said:
I have maintained my narrative all along, with respect to some obfuscation and argumentative comments along the way (but all us here are guilty of that).

Here is the most plausible version of events:

Dean Robinson and Steven Dank were brought to the club not by James Hird but on the advice of Mark Thompson (who was meant to be the mentor equivalent of the coaching qualification later advocated by Alastair Clarkson).

James Hird implemented a servant leadership model. This is what he learned at Gemba (look up Gemba on wikipedia, then look up lean leadership). Lean leadership says that the leaders set the direction and trust their people to implement it... Hire great people and trust them do their job. Whoops!

Dank and Robinson had a history of pushing the boundaries of WADA.. In hindsight it was a history of doping.

Evans, Robson and Hird wanted 'whatever it takes' throughout the club. They didn't want to break the rules. They were convinced that Dank and Robinson knew the limits of the code... Who on staff could have convinced them of that?

So where did it break down?

1. Dank and Robinson thought that they were ok with a select group of peptides that they had been using in the NRL until end of 2011 (prior to their text exchange) when the 2012 wada scheme came in.

2. Robson supported plausible deniability as CEO (wonder where he learned that).

3. When Dank started pushing for subcutaneous injections, the players said 'wtf?' and asked for consent forms.

4. The players got their consent forms and also a process for approval of administering substances. Hird supported this.

5. The consent process broke down because Reid has always been anti-supplements and he wanted to research every supplement in great detail.

6. Blood tests started showing deficiencies in testosterone and igf (this is documented history) and players started going down like flies. This could possibly be attributed to the effect of a heavy weights program without performance enhanced recovery assistance, but this could have happened with or without tb4- ie if Robinson didn't change his program to support non PED supplementation you could still have had the same gains with the same eventual pain.

7. Dank started trying to think outside the box because the house of cards was falling down. Injections at hypermed, conversations with alavi, etc.

8. The coaches started to revolt against the unauthorized injections and asked for dank and Robinson to be sacked.

9. Evans and Robson were either tight arses or compromised and we didn't sack them.

The rest is history. We didn't sack them, Hird trusted that Dank wasn't a bullshit artist (lean leadership) and stupidly staked his reputation on it, ASADA were able to concoct a case for TB4 (which was flimsy at best) and we tried to fight the man but the man won.

The big questions for me have never been thymosin or AOD (if we've learned nothing from the meldonian? thing it is that elite sportspeople take whatever they can to win), they are what was given in the preseason to support Robinson's weight program.

Hunter's evidence makes me increasingly confident that we tried to use a Robinson weights program without a Dank PED program and that the players are; as the attest, innocent.

Of course there is no evidence of this and there is plenty of evidence of Dank trying to cut corners, but as all of you have maintained it is the big gains in preseason 2012 that are the suspicious ones, not the potential effects of a Tb4 program.

I admit that I have a single source for my information and it might be biased but I do try and balance it with opinion and those facts I can get from elsewhere.
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Did the coaches revolt against the un-authorised injections (they seemed pretty happy with how Anzac day turned out) or did they revolt against a program that had broken half the list?
 
Crankyhawk said:
In your scenario, why haven't Essendon then gone to throw Dank under the bus. Apply heavy pressure to him, make him spill his guts.
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It seems pretty clear that Dank is a loose cannon. He could say anything. More than Essendon, the AFL stand to lose if Dank opens up (truthfully or not - who's going to know?) about what's gone down at the 4 AFL clubs he's been associated with. I don't think that the AFL want Dank to "spill his guts". And I think that Essendon can only push the AFL so far - they're not going to be able to take their ball and play in another league are they? We saw in the "negotiations" at the end of 2013 that if Essendon want to remain Essendon they have to fit into the AFL's agenda. It'd have to be a player outside the AFL system who went after Dank. At this stage, the 34 players are still appealing and Hunter is likely to be mediating a settlement with Essendon. Dank's safe for a while longer, I think.
 

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sameolds33 said:
I don't think that the AFL want Dank to "spill his guts". And I think that Essendon can only push the AFL so far - they're not going to be able to take their ball and play in another league are they?
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I see it precisely the opposite. The AFL hasn't been shy of the "rogue Dank" line. Its the Club that won't mention his name, even though the supporters love the idea to bits.

The "disrepute" press conference was very educational. Fitzpatrick handpassed the line "Steven Dank has a lot to answer for" to Little, unmarked in the goalsquare. Little dropped it like a hot potato and the Club hasn't gone near it since.
 
andrewb said:
One of the key facts that came out of the Hal interview last night was that injections, outside of blood tests, did not commence until well into the 2012 season.

Supplements in the preseason, when we supposedly bulked up due to PEDs, were only taken orally.

Could someone please tell me which from the long list of ACC peptides are effective in oral form?
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peptides are available in all applications,

creams, (trans dermis), and orally, but in lozenge form also, which may be trans dermis thru the inside of the mouth.
 
Ancient Tiger said:
If CJC and GHRP can be given as lozenges and creams, doesn't it sound plausible that Essendon were given these at the end of 2011? Certainly fits the picture and what Dank told my friend....
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damn, just said the same thing, not sure how many days/minutes or hours after this
 
Satan said:
Not giving it away
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Sorry, misread the thread title (and meaning of OP).

These drugs that were on the ACC list are also available as tablets and/or cream:

AOD9604 (tablet/cream)
Hexarelin (tablet)
CJC-1295 (cream)
TA65 (tablet)

There's probably more, but I think you get the drift.
 
Laphroaig said:
I see it precisely the opposite. The AFL hasn't been shy of the "rogue Dank" line. Its the Club that won't mention his name, even though the supporters love the idea to bits.

The "disrepute" press conference was very educational. Fitzpatrick handpassed the line "Steven Dank has a lot to answer for" to Little, unmarked in the goalsquare. Little dropped it like a hot potato and the Club hasn't gone near it since.
Click to expand...
I didn't say that EFC isn't concerned about what Dank might say, just that the AFL has more at stake about what Dank might/could say. If it didn't, the AFL could, for example, bring action in relation to Dank's work at GCFC or MFC. It hasn't. As long as their interests coincide with the AFL's, I don't think you'll see any of the interested parties (current players or the relevant clubs) suing Dank. It's not just an EFC problem.
 
The 747 said:
This is a pretty good alternative narrative. My queries would be:

Why was Hird warned about peptides?

Why is Hird reported as researching PEDs?

How could Hird not be aware of Charters involvement and what Charters does?

Why did post graduate educated Hird pretend he didn't know how to say or spell peptides in his Tracey Holmes interview?

And if your narrative is true why haven't they just rolled with it instead of thymodulin, spreadsheets, we know it wasn't illegal and so on?

Interested in your answers, since you are in the serious mode :)
Click to expand...
What's a peptype?
 

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andrewb said:
I have maintained my narrative all along, with respect to some obfuscation and argumentative comments along the way (but all us here are guilty of that).

Here is the most plausible version of events:

Dean Robinson and Steven Dank were brought to the club not by James Hird but on the advice of Mark Thompson (who was meant to be the mentor equivalent of the coaching qualification later advocated by Alastair Clarkson).

James Hird implemented a servant leadership model. This is what he learned at Gemba (look up Gemba on wikipedia, then look up lean leadership). Lean leadership says that the leaders set the direction and trust their people to implement it... Hire great people and trust them do their job. Whoops!

Dank and Robinson had a history of pushing the boundaries of WADA.. In hindsight it was a history of doping.

Evans, Robson and Hird wanted 'whatever it takes' throughout the club. They didn't want to break the rules. They were convinced that Dank and Robinson knew the limits of the code... Who on staff could have convinced them of that?

So where did it break down?

1. Dank and Robinson thought that they were ok with a select group of peptides that they had been using in the NRL until end of 2011 (prior to their text exchange) when the 2012 wada scheme came in.

2. Robson supported plausible deniability as CEO (wonder where he learned that).

3. When Dank started pushing for subcutaneous injections, the players said 'wtf?' and asked for consent forms.

4. The players got their consent forms and also a process for approval of administering substances. Hird supported this.

5. The consent process broke down because Reid has always been anti-supplements and he wanted to research every supplement in great detail.

6. Blood tests started showing deficiencies in testosterone and igf (this is documented history) and players started going down like flies. This could possibly be attributed to the effect of a heavy weights program without performance enhanced recovery assistance, but this could have happened with or without tb4- ie if Robinson didn't change his program to support non PED supplementation you could still have had the same gains with the same eventual pain.

7. Dank started trying to think outside the box because the house of cards was falling down. Injections at hypermed, conversations with alavi, etc.

8. The coaches started to revolt against the unauthorized injections and asked for dank and Robinson to be sacked.

9. Evans and Robson were either tight arses or compromised and we didn't sack them.

The rest is history. We didn't sack them, Hird trusted that Dank wasn't a bullshit artist (lean leadership) and stupidly staked his reputation on it, ASADA were able to concoct a case for TB4 (which was flimsy at best) and we tried to fight the man but the man won.

The big questions for me have never been thymosin or AOD (if we've learned nothing from the meldonian? thing it is that elite sportspeople take whatever they can to win), they are what was given in the preseason to support Robinson's weight program.

Hunter's evidence makes me increasingly confident that we tried to use a Robinson weights program without a Dank PED program and that the players are; as the attest, innocent.

Of course there is no evidence of this and there is plenty of evidence of Dank trying to cut corners, but as all of you have maintained it is the big gains in preseason 2012 that are the suspicious ones, not the potential effects of a Tb4 program.

I admit that I have a single source for my information and it might be biased but I do try and balance it with opinion and those facts I can get from elsewhere.
Click to expand...


Hird, Xavier Campbell and Goodwin most certainly knew that the program wasnt all 'amino acids' and vitamens though. Each was injected with banned substances by Dank in his office at Essendon. I am sorry but if Hird is using a 'Trust based' model, his sports scientist who is in charge of this program having PED's on site would immediately ring enormous warning bells in any sane persons mind.

sorry - not buying that Hird didnt know.
 
KM00 said:
Hird, Xavier Campbell and Goodwin most certainly knew that the program wasnt all 'amino acids' and vitamens though. Each was injected with banned substances by Dank in his office at Essendon. I am sorry but if Hird is using a 'Trust based' model, his sports scientist who is in charge of this program having PED's on site would immediately ring enormous warning bells in any sane persons mind.

sorry - not buying that Hird didnt know.
Click to expand...

e.g. "financials ready for you and David for AOD project. These financials cover all possible revenue streams, where the project applies."

Which, of course, followed Hird and Evans meeting with Calzada, with Dank as facilitator.
 
What I'm wondering after hearing Hunter's story is how many others got away with it? Chances are there are at least a few other drug cheats still playing that didnt get infraction notices because they were either rookies at the time/didnt sign the forms.
 
yeahmate said:
What I'm wondering after hearing Hunter's story is how many others got away with it? Chances are there are at least a few other drug cheats still playing that didnt get infraction notices because they were either rookies at the time/didnt sign the forms.
Click to expand...

Possibly a better question to ask is, on any given match day in any given team, how many players require some chemical assistance to get the job done.

My guess - most - if not most then certainly an awful lot.
 
yeahmate said:
What I'm wondering after hearing Hunter's story is how many others got away with it? Chances are there are at least a few other drug cheats still playing that didnt get infraction notices because they were either rookies at the time/didnt sign the forms.
Click to expand...
And sadly ... what other clubs?
Dank was the stupid operator. There's always sharper knives in the drawer - trouble is, you usually cut yourself when you find them.:cry:
 
NoAFLinmycomp said:
And sadly ... what other clubs?
Dank was the stupid operator. There's always sharper knives in the drawer - trouble is, you usually cut yourself when you find them.:cry:
Click to expand...
dank needs a nickname. Dr Ageless. The Weapon. The Gazelle.

Dank was not protected cos he wasnt anthropomorphised, or if smartarses wish to point out that is an inversion in the macquarie dictionary, well fukc off, it was metaphorical you fukc.

does anyone have an antropomisation[sic] name for Steven?
 
Slartibartfast said:
Got say cat, it's a relief that you got rid of that last avatar. I was worried it was going to put me off sex for life.
Not that I have viewed the hulks home movie yet.
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you dont like Bojo?

meds can you tell slartibast that that was sacrilegious taking Bojo's name in vain.
medusala
 
blackcat said:
dank needs a nickname. Dr Ageless. The Weapon. The Gazelle.

Dank was not protected cos he wasnt anthropomorphised, or if smartarses wish to point out that is an inversion in the macquarie dictionary, well fukc off, it was metaphorical you fukc.

does anyone have an antropomisation[sic] name for Steven?
Click to expand...

thought his nickname was "the pharmacist"
 
Ancient Tiger said:
If CJC and GHRP can be given as lozenges and creams, doesn't it sound plausible that Essendon were given these at the end of 2011? Certainly fits the picture and what Dank told my friend....
Click to expand...
"The boys have certainly had their eyes opened to the changes in body shape in only 2 weeks" Jobe Watson, Nov 2011.
 
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