What would you prefer -our 12th or Essendons 8th

[Slattery_20]

Like I have said it seems that the majority are that desperate to simply see us make finals that they will take an appearance any way they can get it, even if it means that we get thumped along the way.

So you'd rather cop a thumping on the way to 12th than cop a thumping on the way to 8th. I just don't get that.
Thumpings are bad but surely you'd prefer to be belted in a grand final than in a prelim or a semi or QF or rd 19 game finally mathematically ruling you out of finals.

Collingwood got belted in 2009 prelim. Hawks 07 semi. Do you think they were worried about it a year later? Do you think anyone remembers or cares?
It's part and parcel of the journey IMHO.

 

[NQTIGER]

So you'd rather cop a thumping on the way to 12th than cop a thumping on the way to 8th. I just don't get that.
Thumpings are bad but surely you'd prefer to be belted in a grand final than in a prelim or a semi or QF or rd 19 game finally mathematically ruling you out of finals.

Collingwood got belted in 2009 prelim. Hawks 07 semi. Do you think they were worried about it a year later? Do you think anyone remembers or cares?
It's part and parcel of the journey IMHO.

Thanks Slats you summed up my feelings...

 

[tigs2010]

So you'd rather cop a thumping on the way to 12th than cop a thumping on the way to 8th. I just don't get that.
Thumpings are bad but surely you'd prefer to be belted in a grand final than in a prelim or a semi or QF or rd 19 game finally mathematically ruling you out of finals.

Collingwood got belted in 2009 prelim. Hawks 07 semi. Do you think they were worried about it a year later? Do you think anyone remembers or cares?
It's part and parcel of the journey IMHO.

Yep. You have 22 players from the weekend getting a taste of finals. We got 0. That pretty much sums up the argument in 2 lines

 

[_RT_]

So you'd rather cop a thumping on the way to 12th than cop a thumping on the way to 8th. I just don't get that.
Thumpings are bad but surely you'd prefer to be belted in a grand final than in a prelim or a semi or QF or rd 19 game finally mathematically ruling you out of finals.

Collingwood got belted in 2009 prelim. Hawks 07 semi. Do you think they were worried about it a year later? Do you think anyone remembers or cares?
It's part and parcel of the journey IMHO.

What I'd prefer is to make the finals when we're not simply making up the numbers much like the Bombers a couple of years ago or for that fact even this year. Even if we lost in the first week of the finals I believe we'd get much more benefit out of being right in the game until the final siren, similar to how the Blues were in the previous 2 seasons where they lost first up.

Tell me Slatts, how soon into Sundays game did your thoughts of winning the game turn to well at least we can say we made it unlike the other 9 teams? You see I'd much rather be saying 'If we had of done a few things a little better we could have won', rather than sitting here and saying things like well at least we got to play an extra game this year and the kids got a taste.

Like I said above I make no apologies for wanting to see Richmond actually having a decent shot at winning finals rather than just being part of them and going out without even putting up a fight. How anyone can be happy with simply making finals is beyond me.

 

[_RT_]

For all your postulating RT at the start of EACH season the RFC aims to play finals and win the Flag, you on the other hand you only want us to think about playing finals.

Not sure where that fits in to trying to achieve what we all want.

Dimmas Speech at the B7F was about playing finals and teh players demanding that, how does that fit in with your only finals when we are ready.?

Having discussions / arguments with us mere mortals must be getting to you as you are becoming tedious.

What I took from Dimmas speech is that he and the players want to make finals next year but to do that we're going to have to work much harder and perform much better than what we did this year. That backs up Hardwicks speech at the start of the year where he said that the 2011 season was all about development rather than wins as we built towards being a side that could achieve sustained success. That clearly fits into the opinion I have been putting forward.

BTW any chance you can answer whether you would prefer option a or option b from my post last night?

 

[Slattery_20]

What I'd prefer is to make the finals when we're not simply making up the numbers

So would I.
Fact is, neither of our sides are - realistically - there yet. We fell apart - badly - through the end of the season as more of the list - & a couple of the older players - got exposed.
So we're talking about the little steps, like almost all flag sides do, from outside finals to in finals, to winning a final, to top 4 and flag assault. Once the players believe they can get into finals, they can start to believe they can compete and go the next step, and so on.

Tell me Slatts, how soon into Sundays game did your thoughts of winning the game turn to well at least we can say we made it unlike the other 9 teams?

Can honestly say I never did.
(Could be because our spot was sewn up when the Saints got over North, though).
Obviously that's one - little - positive to take out of the season.
Very disappointing from go to whoa though and pretty much started putting a mental line through a few players in the first quarter, LOL.

You see I'd much rather be saying 'If we had of done a few things a little better we could have won', rather than sitting here and saying things like well at least we got to play an extra game this year and the kids got a taste.

So would I. Of course.

Just in our case there's more things to change to go on.
The sides sitting 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th and so on have more again.

Like I said above I make no apologies for wanting to see Richmond actually having a decent shot at winning finals rather than just being part of them and going out without even putting up a fight. How anyone can be happy with simply making finals is beyond me.

Never happy unless we win the flag.
The question is 'happier' comparing the two positions.

 

[tugga]

lol at the notion that we should have finished 5th or 6th year and the fact that we didn't due to coaching incompetence. Just lol at that.
Here was a side that halfway through last season was being compared to Fitzroy on death row and had many people saying we would not win a game and for some reason we were expected to finish 5th this year?
I guess that makes Wallace's 5 years in charge a real success.
Disagree with you on this one though RT. Finals for me. Would have been nice, but realistically we are still two years away, thanks to the previous coaching panel. Doesn't stop me from wanting finals though.

 

[_RT_]

lol at the notion that we should have finished 5th or 6th year and the fact that we didn't due to coaching incompetence. Just lol at that.
Here was a side that halfway through last season was being compared to Fitzroy on death row and had many people saying we would not win a game and for some reason we were expected to finish 5th this year?
I guess that makes Wallace's 5 years in charge a real success.
Disagree with you on this one though RT. Finals for me.

I realise that most if not everyone disagree with me and thats fine as posters are free to have their own opinion.

It just seems that after so little success over the last 3 decades that the majority simply want to see us in finals just so they can say we made it. I don't want to simply make it, I want to be in there where we are at least able to compete rather than simply getting a taste. Not sure how that is being taken as a bad thing. I would have thought that everyone would like to see us make finals in that way rather than just making up the numbers.

Guess I was wrong and we should simply just aim for 8th place next year and be happy with that.

 

[tugga]

I realise that most if not everyone disagree with me and thats fine as posters are free to have their own opinion.

It just seems that after so little success over the last 3 decades that the majority simply want to see us in finals just so they can say we made it. I don't want to simply make it, I want to be in there where we are at least able to compete rather than simply getting a taste. Not sure how that is being taken as a bad thing. I would have thought that everyone would like to see us make finals in that way rather than just making up the numbers.

Guess I was wrong and we should simply just aim for 8th place next year and be happy with that.

Never said you were wrong. Opinions are not wrong.
For me...if we finish 8th then it is just one step closer to finishing 4th and another step closer to finishing 1st. It is literally climbing a ladder.

 

[Mr Magic]

Never said you were wrong. Opinions are not wrong.
For me...if we finish 8th then it is just one step closer to finishing 4th and another step closer to finishing 1st. It is literally climbing a ladder.

This is essentially the criterion which is complete rubbish to me IMO in a categorical sense.

In fact certis paribus( all other things being equal) finishing 8th actually is a step further away from a premiership.

The reasoning is as follows:

A ladder position is an indication of a teams ability that is largely indirect. So just moving upwards to 8th of itself means absolutely nothing given the majority of factors causing team performance to improve involing the players etc.. are not caused by ladder position. There is no tangible, fundamental reason for improved ladder position, of itself, means your team will be better going forward

The one thing that is fact is the draft favours those at the lower end of the ladder.

If you adjusted teams for financial clout etc... what would the statistics say in recent years involving the draft. I would argue that being closing to the bottom for certain periods gives you a better chance of winning a premiership!!!


This is the reverse of what has been suggested above, thus the counter claims regarding making finals etc...


At the end of the day, no one can convince me otherwise, the number one criterion to win a premiership is the quality of the cattle, second fitness and then it becomes a little greyer!!

 

[tigs2010]

Reading your posts im confident u want us to go from 16th to premiership in one hit. Or at the very least outside the 8 to a premiership in one go.

Can u let us know a side who has done this?

 

[_RT_]

Never said you were wrong. Opinions are not wrong.
For me...if we finish 8th then it is just one step closer to finishing 4th and another step closer to finishing 1st. It is literally climbing a ladder.

To climb the ladder you need to be able to, at worst, compete with the other teams around the positions we want to get to. This year we simply weren't competitive with those teams in the 8. If we're to climb the ladder next year we need to be able to win more than just 2 games against those sides. Ideally I'd like to see us win 6 as we can then head into the finals feeling pretty confident of our chances of at least being able to compete and I believe that we would gain more from the game being able to compete rather than being uncompetitive. Thats the point I'm trying to get across. Making finals where we're uncompetitive is more harmful than not making it.

 

[Slattery_20]

To climb the ladder you need to be able to, at worst, compete with the other teams around the positions we want to get to. This year we simply weren't competitive with those teams in the 8.

But how does a few other wins along the way, a bit of extra confidence hinder that?

We can all see that 'achieving' 8th & a first up loss doesn't help you along the way all that much. But what does losing 3 or 4 more games achieve in comparison.

That's what I don't think you've really explained very well.

 

[Morro]

I havent read through the whole Thread as I dont need to.

The answer is simple. You chose finals everytime and not to is a disgrace and an opinion that would never be shared by the club.

Anything can happen in finals and it should be the aim every year.

 

[Mr Magic]

Reading your posts im confident u want us to go from 16th to premiership in one hit. Or at the very least outside the 8 to a premiership in one go.

Can u let us know a side who has done this?

Your confidence is unjustified, but finishing 12th brings us closer to a premiership than 9th IMO if that is what you mean.

What you are suggesting is our team is closer to winning a premiership just because in the Kangaroos match (for example), an umpire decision, the ball bounce , and a few other variables went our way for us to snag a win. The thing is our list is the same and other fitness is the same, our confidence might be a touch lower but our determination if we are champions and drive should be stronger with the realisation of what we need to do , no short cuts, but light is still at the end of the tunnel for us to drive forward. If we didn't have the likes of Cotch, JR etc.. would the team have the same belief. I suspect not so in this way the cattle is more important in forging a premiership team than ladder position, simple as that

I am not simply saying 16th to 1st, 15th, to 1st, 12 to first 6th to first 18th to first or whatever.

What I am saying is being a the lower end of the ladder should improve the ability of your list if you can harness it to propell you forward due to the draft but this is common knowledge. What do you think GWS and GC are doing????

I do not advocate tanking, ie intending to lose on game day, but I unlike yourself, believe in the possibilities of winning premierships from further down the ladder than others expect because I have experienced it myself along with other life experiences.

West Coast is a relative example but they will not be quite good enough yet IMO!!

 

[a_fighting_fury]

I'd take Finals experience over an improved draft pick any day of the week.

It would benefit 22 players and coaches alike, as we're constantly told that finals experience is a total different kettle of fish.

 

[CoggaRules]

This is essentially the criterion which is complete rubbish to me IMO in a categorical sense.

In fact certis paribus( all other things being equal) finishing 8th actually is a step further away from a premiership.

The reasoning is as follows:

A ladder position is an indication of a teams ability that is largely indirect. So just moving upwards to 8th of itself means absolutely nothing given the majority of factors causing team performance to improve involing the players etc.. are not caused by ladder position. There is no tangible, fundamental reason for improved ladder position, of itself, means your team will be better going forward

The one thing that is fact is the draft favours those at the lower end of the ladder.

If you adjusted teams for financial clout etc... what would the statistics say in recent years involving the draft. I would argue that being closing to the bottom for certain periods gives you a better chance of winning a premiership!!!


This is the reverse of what has been suggested above, thus the counter claims regarding making finals etc...


At the end of the day, no one can convince me otherwise, the number one criterion to win a premiership is the quality of the cattle, second fitness and then it becomes a little greyer!!

You cant be serious??? I mean no tangible reason? How about games won? At the end of the day, even though 8th or 7th are more likely to be lambs to the slaughter, you cant make 8th or 7th without winning games against teams in the top 4 or 5. Yes there is a default component, when teams in the pack fighting for the last 2 possies, stumble and fall and lose, but yes too, those teams dont make it because they couldnt produce the goods in games against teams in the top 4 or 5.

I dont rate the bummers, but they won games against quality teams and that is something that we couldnt, thus not making finals. Its a myth that you will make finals without producing a couple of wins against top 4 sides.

 

[tigs2010]

Your confidence is unjustified, but finishing 12th brings us closer to a premiership than 9th IMO if that is what you mean.

What you are suggesting is our team is closer to winning a premiership just because in the Kangaroos match (for example), an umpire decision, the ball bounce , and a few other variables went our way for us to snag a win. The thing is our list is the same and other fitness is the same, our confidence might be a touch lower but our determination if we are champions and drive should be stronger with the realisation of what we need to do , no short cuts, but light is still at the end of the tunnel for us to drive forward. If we didn't have the likes of Cotch, JR etc.. would the team have the same belief. I suspect not so in this way the cattle is more important in forging a premiership team than ladder position, simple as that

I am not simply saying 16th to 1st, 15th, to 1st, 12 to first 6th to first 18th to first or whatever.

What I am saying is being a the lower end of the ladder should improve the ability of your list if you can harness it to propell you forward due to the draft but this is common knowledge. What do you think GWS and GC are doing????

I do not advocate tanking, ie intending to lose on game day, but I unlike yourself, believe in the possibilities of winning premierships from further down the ladder than others expect because I have experienced it myself along with other life experiences.

West Coast is a relative example but they will not be quite good enough yet IMO!!

That's not accurate at all. I understand the 9th vs 12th debate. Both seasons end after 22 games but u get a higher pick from 12th. But to say making the 8 puts u further away from a premiership is nonsense. U get the extra game under finals pressure and atmosphere. Look at Carlton...are they further away because 2009-10 they lost first week of finals instead of 12th? Eventually u have to make finals and eventually u have to start winning finals to win a premiership.

In regards to the highlighted bit...when do we go up the ladder? give me a date or a timeframe.

 

[_RT_]

But how does a few other wins along the way, a bit of extra confidence hinder that?

We can all see that 'achieving' 8th & a first up loss doesn't help you along the way all that much. But what does losing 3 or 4 more games achieve in comparison.

That's what I don't think you've really explained very well.

It comes down to your access to the draft. We finished 12th this year and get pick 14 as a result. The Dons who got to play that 1 extra game get pick 19 as a result. Given the shallowness of this years draft I'm much happier to have a pick 4-5 places ahead of the Bombers in every round, than play that one extra game that in all probablity would have seen us get embarrassed by the Blues as well.

BTW I accept that there is no guarantee that the kids we pick will end up being better than the ones the Bombers pick. But by having the earlier pick we've given ourselves a deeper pool of kids to pick from.

 

[Mr Magic]

That's not accurate at all. I understand the 9th vs 12th debate. Both seasons end after 22 games but u get a higher pick from 12th. But to say making the 8 puts u further away from a premiership is nonsense. U get the extra game under finals pressure and atmosphere. Look at Carlton...are they further away because 2009-10 they lost first week of finals instead of 12th? Eventually u have to make finals and eventually u have to start winning finals to win a premiership.

In regards to the highlighted bit...when do we go up the ladder? give me a date or a timeframe.

I have said I am not interested in ladders. I have regularly said our premiership window if done right is in 5-10 years. Meaning we could win in 5 years time but realistically 6 years up to 10 years time when Cotch etc.. retire.

Carlton are further away from a premiership since you have asked. They are not good enough unless they manipulate their list big time. Getting Judd was massive fools gold and west coast have been vindicated even with picking Mastern etc.. with obvious local bias etc..!! We are closer to a premiership than Carlton. As I have said Carlton will fall away when Judd retires and then they will have to rebuild which means they are at least 15 years away IMO.

What you seem to suggest is you do not get belief or an awareness to win a final without actually being in one before hand. If that is the case we are not watching football in the home and away are we????

Truth is if the guys are good enough they will already have the belief.
Should Rance say, oh the posters of last year were right, I am not good enough, I will chuck it in??? It is like saying Cotch, etc... have done nothing until they play in a final. It is a joke and an inditement on him and others in the same situation. They know they are good enough and once they get the support around then it will be upwards and onwards to the ultimate glory.

So the key at the moment is getting the support around Cotch and co etc.. making finals has little to do with that!!!!

 

[Mr Magic]

You cant be serious??? I mean no tangible reason? How about games won? At the end of the day, even though 8th or 7th are more likely to be lambs to the slaughter, you cant make 8th or 7th without winning games against teams in the top 4 or 5. Yes there is a default component, when teams in the pack fighting for the last 2 possies, stumble and fall and lose, but yes too, those teams dont make it because they couldnt produce the goods in games against teams in the top 4 or 5.

I dont rate the bummers, but they won games against quality teams and that is something that we couldnt, thus not making finals. Its a myth that you will make finals without producing a couple of wins against top 4 sides.

Winning games is not a tangible reason. We are not talking about winning a premiership in the same year as the ladder position we are referring to!!!

For example , West Coast were in the bottom 4, or so, and now they are currently top 4 and who knows.

By the way , winning against top 4 sides is a separate argument with ladder position in prior years before a premiership The two aspects are mutually exclusive!!!

 

[NQTIGER]

What I took from Dimmas speech is that he and the players want to make finals next year but to do that we're going to have to work much harder and perform much better than what we did this year. That backs up Hardwicks speech at the start of the year where he said that the 2011 season was all about development rather than wins as we built towards being a side that could achieve sustained success. That clearly fits into the opinion I have been putting forward.

BTW any chance you can answer whether you would prefer option a or option b from my post last night?

The thread question was our 12th or Essendons 8th, I would suggest that the majority including myself say 8th.

You on the other hand would prefer a higher draft pick am i correct?

 

[Slattery_20]

It comes down to your access to the draft. We finished 12th this year and get pick 14 as a result. The Dons who got to play that 1 extra game get pick 19 as a result. Given the shallowness of this years draft I'm much happier to have a pick 4-5 places ahead of the Bombers in every round, than play that one extra game that in all probablity would have seen us get embarrassed by the Blues as well.

BTW I accept that there is no guarantee that the kids we pick will end up being better than the ones the Bombers pick. But by having the earlier pick we've given ourselves a deeper pool of kids to pick from.

Certainly an advantage, but I'd call it marginal - at best.
And I think the kids'd be better off playing than having very, very slightly better draftees the next year.

I think most drafts - past the first 4-5 kids - tend to be pretty even in terms of depth. Particularly with GC/GWS/compo picks pillaging it for the other clubs.

In fact I think that kinda ignores what positive effects aiming for a competitive, winning mentality, confidence, and always pushing for a result can have.
It's part of that whole Dean Bailey style 'results don't matter, we know what we're doing, youth youth youth' mindset that I frankly don't rate.
It doesn't expect results; and it often delivers on those expectations.

Obviously for a club right in the depths of a rebuild it's the right way to go but I don't think any club should be thinking like that for more than 1 or 2 years.

Guess we'll agree to disagree.

 

[Slattery_20]

Winning games is not a tangible reason. We are not talking about winning a premiership in the same year as the ladder position we are referring to!!!

That just about sums it up for me: 'don't bother even trying now because it won't help you in 5 years'

Pies, Cats, both (bar one bad year, each) worked and tried and pushed and got better, and better, and better every year. And Swans and Eagles, and Port and Bris before that.
Then sides ahead of them fell over and they won a flag/s.

'Gotta be in it to win it'.

 

[_RT_]

The thread question was our 12th or Essendons 8th, I would suggest that the majority including myself say 8th.

You on the other hand would prefer a higher draft pick am i correct?

Based on our inability to compete with the top 8 sides then yes I would much prefer to have access to the better draft pick.

Now that I have answered your question yet again any chance you can finally give an answer to whether you would prefer option a or option b? Or are you ignoring the question because you don't like the answer you would give?