Analysis Where to from here?

[Pollywaffle]

It's great being in the Top 8 each year....it's certainly better than being Bottom 8.

I disagree. I’d trade a few years of bottom dwelling for a feeling that we were building something and not flogging a nearly dead horse.
I would also like to be identified with an exciting brand of football not death by a thousand passes..

 

[Hinkley29]

Anyone who has talks about others "accepting mediocrity" is a complete tool.

Just because someone continues to support the club and doesn't throw their toys out of the cot when they lose doesnt mean that they are accepting of anything.

What a crock of shit.

 

[Mad_Hatter]

Anyone who has talks about others "accepting mediocrity" is a complete tool.

Just because someone continues to support the club and doesn't throw their toys out of the cot when they lose doesnt mean that they are accepting of anything.

What a crock of sh*t.

Completely missing the point of "accepting mediocrity"... It's not the supporters, it's the club.

 

[Cataholic]

I disagree. I’d trade a few years of bottom dwelling for a feeling that we were building something and not flogging a nearly dead horse.
I would also like to be identified with an exciting brand of football not death by a thousand passes..

Agreed.

I meant that I'd rather be competitive in the Top 8 than languishing at the bottom, but not if we can't be competitive come finals.

 

[Wojcinski]

I disagree. I’d trade a few years of bottom dwelling for a feeling that we were building something and not flogging a nearly dead horse.
I would also like to be identified with an exciting brand of football not death by a thousand passes..

same here, my NBA team - Orlando Magic, has been a basketcase for the best part of a decade, for a couple of years running they stuck with a lineup that got us into the playoffs as a low seed only to lose in week one. In the season just gone, they traded out their 3 best players for draft picks and youth and while I know the next few years will be shitty, it's an exicting thought watching the young roster hopefully come together in the future.

When I look at teams like Essendon I feel a little envious in how their list has been built, even Norf to an extent. They have so many young, high potential guys that if managed properly, could dominate in years to come.

I think Geelong has a pretty decent set of club staff and assistants, I'd love to see what they could do with a list like Essendons.

 

[Pollywaffle]

same here, my NBA team - Orlando Magic, has been a basketcase for the best part of a decade, for a couple of years running they stuck with a lineup that got us into the playoffs as a low seed only to lose in week one. In the season just gone, they traded out their 3 best players for draft picks and youth and while I know the next few years will be shitty, it's an exicting thought watching the young roster hopefully come together in the future.

When I look at teams like Essendon I feel a little envious in how their list has been built, even Norf to an extent. They have so many young, high potential guys that if managed properly, could dominate in years to come.

I think Geelong has a pretty decent set of club staff and assistants, I'd love to see what they could do with a list like Essendons.

Not old enough

 

[Down at K Park]

and we almost did last season, we got very close to a flag. do you feel the club should have folded shop this year after leading at half time of last years grand final?? i would like to hear what we should have done differently this off season according to you after making a grand final.

look, some people who are winners and optimistic people have the balls and courage to keep pushing hard and trying to achieve when they are close, others are pessimistic cowards who want to fold shop and run off.

its a mindset really and defines character

It’s the way we continually put up some atrocious performances that is the real problem. If we were always competitive and had a real crack then it can be accepted. But to continually fail to turn up, panic or just put in half arsed efforts that is the real ball breaker. It’s gutting. There is no hunger left in this team.

It’s a mindset. A rotten one.

 

[Nankervis brothers]

Perth.

 

[bellpark]

We won’t face it but the midfield is slow and cannot keep up with the 2 ways running in the second halves - Homes out was a mistake but there you go we are not going to replace Joel, Danger Menengola but those 3 are being exploited and aren’t allowing us to swarm numbers around the ball so we are panicking when we are outnumbered. only Parfitt was really getting to all contests but was often one out. If we are to move forward and change our fortunes we need to confont our midfield problems as there is bugger all coming through apart from Holmes, Stephen’s is looking like a wash, and there are no difference makers coming through.

 

[Pods]

It’s the way we continually put up some atrocious performances that is the real problem. If we were always competitive and had a real crack then it can be accepted. But to continually fail to turn up, panic or just put in half arsed efforts that is the real ball breaker. It’s gutting. There is no hunger left in this team.

It’s a mindset. A rotten one.

i think that’s spot on. It’s the continual poor performances in finals.

continually being a ‘contender’ is an effort worthy of compliment and certainly shouldn’t be taken for granted, but not turning up time after time is what drives people (including me) nuts.

If we showed more in the many many many finals loses I think we’d all be on the same page

 

[CatAttack84]

It’s the way we continually put up some atrocious performances that is the real problem. If we were always competitive and had a real crack then it can be accepted. But to continually fail to turn up, panic or just put in half arsed efforts that is the real ball breaker. It’s gutting. There is no hunger left in this team.

It’s a mindset. A rotten one.

^This! This is it. If they play their absolute best, and the others are simply better, than it is what it is. That is NOT the case, nor has been. We've consistently shown we can beat the best and have done so most of the time, all but when it really matters.

For those here who like to "compare" what others are doing, have a look at the other finals thus far, a thriller down to a point for the two Sydney teams, and as I type basically equal scorelines between the Demons and Lions....our final? Smashed left and right.

 

[Pods]

^This! This is it. If they play their absolute best, and the others are simply better, than it is what it is. That is NOT the case, nor has been. We've consistently shown we can beat the best and have done so most of the time, all but when it really matters.

For those here who like to "compare" what others are doing, have a look at the other finals thus far, a thriller down to a point for the two Sydney teams, and as I type basically equal scorelines between the Demons and Lions....our final? Smashed left and right.

Yep nailed it

 

[Down at K Park]

^This! This is it. If they play their absolute best, and the others are simply better, than it is what it is. That is NOT the case, nor has been. We've consistently shown we can beat the best and have done so most of the time, all but when it really matters.

For those here who like to "compare" what others are doing, have a look at the other finals thus far, a thriller down to a point for the two Sydney teams, and as I type basically equal scorelines between the Demons and Lions....our final? Smashed left and right.

Just look how desperate and hungry these teams are. They want it. Max effort.

Then look at our guys. Half arsed.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

It’s the way we continually put up some atrocious performances that is the real problem. If we were always competitive and had a real crack then it can be accepted. But to continually fail to turn up, panic or just put in half arsed efforts that is the real ball breaker. It’s gutting. There is no hunger left in this team.

It’s a mindset. A rotten one.

that doesn’t make sense when we were leading at half time in a grand final.

your definition of no effort is geelong loses.

the Brisbane final looked prettty good effort, so did the collingwood one.

 

[Down at K Park]

that doesn’t make sense when we were leading at half time in a grand final.

your definition of no effort is geelong loses.

the Brisbane final looked prettty good effort, so did the collingwood one.

We have put in rare good finals performances einstein. Most of them we are blown away early.

Our finals records show that nearly every year we have put in mostly stinkers. Last year we did ok though.

 

[Pollywaffle]

Just look how desperate and hungry these teams are. They want it. Max effort.
Then look at our guys. Half arsed.

That's what you get with a team of comfortable 'destination clubbers'

 

[CatToTheFuture]

Apologies this turned into a long post

People looking for sweeping leadership changes need to lower their eyes. We lost last night because we don't have a solution for the hole left behind by Stewart, it led to problems in every part of the ground. I think we need to separate the problems into 3 phases.

Phase 1: Next week
Problem statement
Knock on effect of no Stewart is that we had to have extra numbers back to try generate the same rebound. This drew their mids forward a bit and pinned us in on their entries but not so far forward that it created space for our mids. Net result was our d50 exits went to midfield contests that they consistently had outnumbers for. The flipside of this is that we should have had an empty forward line for the talls to work with but because we were trying to get through an outnumber in the middle we never got through on a quick rebound and ended up kicking high floating entries to a flooded f50.

Secondarily the lack of defensive work in the middle is extremely disappointing but equally predictable. We have a midfield where most of the key names have an All Australian jacket somewhere. Watching the contested work we just got hunted and no one was blocking for anyone as far as I could see. What we need is a player or two in the midfield who is lucky to be there

Proposed solution
Don't really have a good one here. You can't play the same way we did with Stewie in and we don't have time to adjust. But I do have a modest proposal. Jordan Clark

6

Jordan Clark

Age

25

Ht

185cm

Wt

83kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

13.7

4star

K

9.4

4star

HB

4.3

3star

M

4.2

4star

T

2.6

4star

MG

172.0

3star

D

12.5

3star

K

8.5

3star

HB

4.0

3star

M

4.0

4star

T

1.5

2star

MG

172.0

3star

D

12.2

3star

K

10.4

4star

HB

1.8

2star

M

3.4

4star

T

2.4

4star

, as a defender with leg speed who doesn't defend is actually an ideal candidate to generate rebound. His work in his first year as a HBF showed he can do this though he hasn't done it since. Bews out injured I'd bring Clark in, knowing his direct opponent will be loosely checked but also that Duncan and/or Smith will provide better options through the middle.

The part of the problem where no one blocks through the midfield is on paper easier. If we can play one less number back and stop overcompensating for the loss of Stewart then we can at least even up the stoppage and contest numbers a bit. Losing MOC there is a hit. We need someone quick, who isn't going to draw much opposition respect, and with good tackling strength. Holmes in for MOC. Higgins is a microcosm of the problem, and he's back out for mine. Zuthrie the medi-sub. Players that are lucky to be there and will do what the coach says are what we need

Draft/trade:
Just mids who have a 2nd position. No KPPs, no rucks. Don't trade any future picks out. Preference to bring in future picks for any trade outs. Need to try keep Clark. No substantial trade ins this year.

Does this solve our issues? No we probably still bomb out, just maybe with a bit more dignity.


Phase 2: Next year
Problem statement
Backline:
The defensive mix has a few reasonable 1-1 defenders but we are getting too locked in the backline. There's not much we can really change too much here in the short term but I would be looking at what Hendo produces the tail end of this year. I love what he has done this year but we need more rebound.

Midfield:
The balance of too many attacking players in the same space needs to be addressed as does selwood and dangers fast diminishing burst speed.

Ruck:
Rhys doesn't have the endurance to play a full season or apparently even a full game. Sav as a spare kpf/ruck didn't work.

Proposed solution
Defence:
Kreuger needs to have a solid run in the 1s as a kpd early next year to see what he turns into. He has the attacking instincts to be a key defender who attacks which would be huge. The rest of the defenders I think are fine. Blitz to stay back, but if SDK is ready to play kpd then Blitz can go back to wing/ruck

Midfield:
Harder to nail down but I think we can work around the disadvantage of too many slower ball winners. We need to rotate ball hungry players through other positions so we don't have too many in the same passages at once. Selwood rotating off half back, Danger forward, Guthrie half back with more defensive type mids operating through the middle consistently. I think rotate MOC, Parfitt, Atkins, possibly Bews. The key is that we need players who defend first and we need to be getting games into some of the mids we drafted. Stephens, Holmes, maybe Stevens.

Ruck:
Unless TDK wants out of Carlton and we can get him for a steal, Rhys is it. Sav to spend the full year in the 2s learning how to create space as a forward and figuring out how to work with Neale. Being the tall with no clear role in the firsts is doing him no favours. Fort out, Jenkins out, vfl will be Tsapatolis/Neale/Sav. We will risk having to play without a ruck if there's injuries. So be it, we need the spots for mids.

Draft:
Highly dependent on how the year pans out but I would expect best mid available at our first. Later picks subject to other needs/trades but I'd guess an intercept defender as a Stewart understudy

The mids from the 2021 trade period need to put a year together in the 2s as a group. Need to see Holmes put on a full season in the firsts. Stephens needs to be a player of were any chance at continuing to contest finals.

Outcomes here I would say that bottom and top 4 would be equally unlikely but anything in between is even odds

Phase 3: 2023
Problem statement
Midfield:
No Selwood, Tuohy, Smith, with Dangerfield on reduced minutes.

Forward:
No Hawkins
No Rohan

Ruck:
No Stanley maybe

Proposed solution
Midfield:
No simple solution. We will have a structure that is based on Duncan (32) and Guthrie (31) as our more attacking mids and Dangerfield rotating in when his knees will allow. This is the point where we need draftees coming through and the reason why the 2021 draft needs to focus on mids. The reality is here we probably find 2-3 role players and have a custard midfield. The upshot is that if we've preferenced defensive mids for rotations in the 1s it'll help any kids who come through subsequently to find space.

Forward:
Sav to play deep forward. He'll be the best option we have for better or worse. Frank the Tank in for Rohan. Won't be our worst section of the list. Neale needs to have come in for a few games at this point.

No Stanley maybe:
SDK to full back and rotate ruck with with Blitz for a year, unless we see Tsapatolis or Neale tracking ahead which would be pretty great. Either way I think in 2023 SDK should be slotting in down back and freeing up Blitz for a bit of ruck work and running on the wing, though Blitz will be 32 at this point. It's a risk but not the one that will kill us. 2024 ruck would be either Tsapatolis, Neale, or a trade in.

Draft-trade:
This is the year of truth. We hold structure in 2023 then it'll be a demonstration of good coaching. We'll have cap to burn, and added a few new faces. If the faith is there in the coaching group at this stage we would start to see free agents and trade ins ask to come to us. If not then it's a hard road forward from there.


Off field changes 2021 onwards
Coaching staff
Scott is contracted for 2022. I would extend him to 2024. I don't see any advantage in letting him go any earlier. I don't think we'd pick up a better coach, as any ready to go coaches would know that they face a big risk in unsettling a group highly reliant on players coached by Scott for a long time. A new coach at this point is complete scorched earth I think.

Assistants
Midfield coaching needs some new ideas. I would give it 2022 before considering someone new but the 2022 end of season review should strongly consider the success of the midfield.

Player development staff
Mock it if you want but we need a mindfulness coach. Our structures are on the complex side and are falling apart under pressure. Pressure is psychological. When presented with high pressure situations they need to stop, breathe, clear their head, and think one step ahead not 3. Meditation, breathing exercises, the more hippy the better.

Overall assessment
It's not amazing but I wouldn't change the decisions made getting to this point.

 

[CatToTheFuture]

Okay so given that you agree we had the potential to win flags with this list and that Scott is largely to blame for our failure to do so, I take it that you acknowledge then that our recruitment strategy was both the right approach to follow and was executed effectively, as it resulted in us assembling that group with flag-winning potential?

I acknowledge that you're living in the past. You need to move on

 

[Baudolino]

I acknowledge that you're living in the past. You need to move on

What does that even mean in the context of the post you're replying to?

 

[geelong_crazy26]

We have put in rare good finals performances einstein. Most of them we are blown away early.

Our finals records show that nearly every year we have put in mostly stinkers. Last year we did ok though.

we made a grand final and almost won it last year. Effort is not the problem. You don’t make grand finals if you have an effort problem.

I don’t even believe in effort being a real thing at AFL, which is what Clarkson also has said to journalists over the years. It’s just an idea the public have and media personnel.

I tend to think Clarkson knows what his talking about and believe him over a bunch of fans

 

[scooterstar]

The problem I have is we have two elite key forwards and our ball movement is sideways and backwards when we should be backing them in one on one all day every day!

If last night was a true reflection of our side, we need an injection of leg speed in the midfield to break lines. This makes Jordan Clark

6

Jordan Clark

Age

25

Ht

185cm

Wt

83kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

13.7

4star

K

9.4

4star

HB

4.3

3star

M

4.2

4star

T

2.6

4star

MG

172.0

3star

D

12.5

3star

K

8.5

3star

HB

4.0

3star

M

4.0

4star

T

1.5

2star

MG

172.0

3star

D

12.2

3star

K

10.4

4star

HB

1.8

2star

M

3.4

4star

T

2.4

4star

and Max holmes necessities in the side next year.

We also need better small forwards around those two key forward pillars. Dalhaus needs to be a vfl player til his contract is up. Miers kicking negates all other aspects of his work and I’m not sure I’d rather have close and Barkley as small forwards.

Just my thoughts, none of anything any of us say will ever happen or change so just vent and move on.

 

[foodles05]

Not that it really matters much but I would 100% be certain that nearly every other AFL club would laugh at Geelong “sustained success” over this period where they have achieved ******* nothing

Shows that finishing top 4 means absolutely nothing

Evidence? How can you be 100 percent certain of this?

 

[foodles05]

What does that even mean in the context of the post you're replying to?

It's a my argument has been torn to shreds post. Nothing to say in response so writes something stupid. Just take is as an admission that you are right.

 

[Commando]

Go again next week
Go again next year

sweeping changes 2023

 

[JohnZ]

This makes Jordan Clark and Max holmes necessities in the side next year.

Jordan Clark needs to run defensively if he wants to get into the team. He's a massive liability. No different to Murdoch. Talent maybe, but no hunger for the ball unless it's an easy goal.