Whitnall, me concerned.

[one_twelve112]

Disagree - Lance was superb last year for us, did a very good job against a much harder, faster opposition.

There is a reason he was our best and fairest winner.

Disagree - had his colours lowered many times in the second half of the year and a few times got a stack of marks/possessions/goals once the game was already lost. I think a few supporters may have gotten a little too excited about Lance, and been caught up in the moment of a couple of good games while forgeting about his 05 form, plus potential trade, and his 07 form thus far seems reminiscent of 05....

 

[AlecDuncan]

Lance is going to need some time to get back to full fitness. That knee must have held him back more than we thought.

 

[[ToTTi]]

cannot for the life of me believe most of you are writing off lance, who, is our captain mind you, after 3 pre-season games... you've got to be kidding...

fwiw i think the off-field issues have effected him pretty bad, but also, he's only been used in spurts in the 3 nab cup games, its not that he's played and been comprehensively beaten by an opponent, he's been used as a bit player so far so denis can have a look at players like hartlett, bower, kennedy etc...


lance whitnall, carlton captain, remember that one.

 

[drusswaylander]

For a game or two maybe, but I don't think it was any coicidence that Fev had his best season when Whitnall went back. Of course not the only factor, but it played a part.

I have a few niggling doubts about the big bloke, but I think I'll see how he goes in the real stuff before I push the panic button

Lance and Fev did work very well to begin with in 2005, but I think you are forgetting a few things as to why it fell apart mate

Thornton went down in the NAB cup final and then Livo did as well in the early rounds. This forced Lance to play back on a fair few occasions rather than the forward line. Waite was the one who was the other main forward option in a number of games and did pretty well. Fev played injured and didn't handle it well. We all saw him crack the sads in a number of games that year

Fev had the operation to get his body right again and changed his attitude. That is why he went well in 06 not even partly because Lance played back

The idea that Fev and Lance can't play in the same forward line is a fallacy. They have shown they can do it and hopefully they can again

 

[mediumsizered]

Disagree - Lance was superb last year for us, did a very good job against a much harder, faster opposition.

There is a reason he was our best and fairest winner.

He also finished 3rd in the B & F in 2005, having been moved to defence in the second half of the season to try & prevent a weekly onslaught on our defence. He still managed to kick 24 goals for the season, before being moved down back. Those people that think he has only played half a good season over the last couple of years would seem to be totally at odds with the match committee.

 

[btdg]

The idea that Fev and Lance can't play in the same forward line is a fallacy. They have shown they can do it and hopefully they can again

Just pulled up some career numbers to challenge this.

Its always been a contention of mine that the biggest detriment to Whitnall's career was Hamill leaving. Never checked the numbers before, but that seems to be supported. Whitnall got better and better over his career, until Hamill left prior to 2001 - when his output promptly halved, despite being relatively injury free. Hamill worked well in tandem with Whitnall IMO because he was mobile enough to present up-field and allow Whitnall to drop into space around 30-40 metres out, which is his preferred area to work. Hamill also provided a bit of protection for Whitnall.

Taking out the Hamill effect, which was maximised in 1999 and 2000, when both Hamill and Whitnall had career years, Whitnall constantly kicked around 2 goals per game... until Fev's first big year in 2003 (after Pagan came on board), when he averaged less than 1 goal per game. Injury may have played a part, but he was injured the year before yet kept up his average (28 goals from 14 games), and continued to struggle despite playing 19 games in 2004.

For Fev, his numbers are fairly constant in the Pagan era - right up until Whitnall's permanent move to defence in 2006, when he explodes for an extra 20-odd goals... That doesn't surprise me at all, as Whitnall's tendency to drop into space 30-40 meters out is a direct conflict with Fevola's preferred long leads into that same space.

To summarize:
- Whitnall's career numbers improved year by year until Hamill left, when they dropped dramatically
- Whitnall struggled constantly after Fevola was made the prime target by Pagan
- Fevola's numbers improved dramatically after Whitnall went to defence.
- It is now 6 years (going on 7) since Whitnall averaged more than 2 goals per game

Would it be fair to say that Whitnall is at best, a decisively average forward at this point in his career? As a comparison, the much maligned Kent Kingsley averaged slightly under 2 goals per game for his career at Geelong - which puts him in basically the same tier as Whitnall...


The numbers:
1997:
Whitnall - 18 games, 19 goals
Hamill - 19 games, 12 goals

1998:
Whitnall - 22 games, 46 goals
Hamill - 19 games, 25 goals

1999:
Whitnall - 26 games, 55 goals
Fevola - 2 games, 0 goals
Hamill - 26 games, 34 goals

2000:
Whitnall - 25 games, 70 goals
Fevola - 14 games, 26 goals
Hamill - 24 games, 42 goals

2001:
Whitnall - 21 games, 37 goals
Fevola - 16 games, 27 goals

2002:
Whitnall - 14 games, 28 goals
Fevola - 9 games, 13 goals

2003:
Whitnall - 12 games, 11 goals
Fevola - 22 games, 63 goals

2004:
Whitnall - 19 games, 24 goals
Fevola - 20 games, 66 goals

2005:
Whitnall - 22 games, 24 goals
Fevola - 19 games, 49 goals

2006:
Whitnall - 22 games, 15 goals
Fevola - 21 games, 84 goals

 

[BlueDevil]

the last time we won the pre-season cup, fevs and lance were brilliant together in the forward line. unfortunately their form didn't carry on into the season and lance was moved to reinforce the backline from the barrage they received.
you can't compare the two the last couple of seasons, as lance was predominantly used in the backline, hence the reason fevola kicked more goals. also over that period, fevola come on in leaps and bounds as our key forward. he became the gun forward we needed, lance became the general in the back half.
now we have more help in the backline lance can become more accustomed to playing one role, be it back or forward. personally i hope its forward.

 

[drusswaylander]

I stand by this quote mate.

The idea that Fev and Lance can't play in the same forward line is a fallacy. They have shown they can do it and hopefully they can again

Raw stats can be a bit misleading at times btdg. Not to mention that the issue is an effective forward line and whether Fev and Lance can work together in ours That is not always about who gets the most goals, but how goals are scored for the team.

- It is now 6 years (going on 7) since Whitnall averaged more than 2 goals per game

Although just to nitpick the stats you have used mate I think 28 goals divided by 14 games in 2002 could workout to be an average of 2 Even his 2001 figures are close enough to two to be statistically insignificant.

- Whitnall's career numbers improved year by year until Hamill left, when they dropped dramatically

I can't argue against that, although I think the raw data doesn't tell the whole story. Hamill was a huge loss to our whole forward line structure. It also fails to take into account that Big Red's injury problems started to surface in 2001 and I can't see how you can say he was relatively injury free.(Koutas knee was the tragedy of that season, but Lance also hurt his). Nor again does it take into account how rubbish we were from 2002 onwards. It is a big leap to suggest that Hamill's loss was the only reason why Lance struggled especially from 2002 onwards. The guy was forever injured which contributed to his weight issues The goal output of our whole team dropped dramatically especially after 2001.

Whitnall constantly kicked around 2 goals per game... until Fev's first big year in 2003 (after Pagan came on board), when he averaged less than 1 goal per game. Injury may have played a part, but he was injured the year before yet kept up his average (28 goals from 14 games), and continued to struggle despite playing 19 games in 2004

You can't just dismiss his injuries mate. He was crocked in 2003 and then hurt himself again in 2004. In 2004 DP started to experiment with Lance in defence which again clouds the picture. You also just can't judge a forward partnership on goals alone. I can still remember that nice little run we had where we beat the Crows, Richmond and the Hawks. Fev exploded and kicked a few bags after DP had given him a rocket by playing him on Gehrig the week before the Crows game Lance was great in all three games despite not getting the bags. We won the games because they worked well together. Unfortunately Fev got himself suspended and Lance injured himself again and that was that until later in the season. They clicked again, but not as effectively as those three games.

For Fev, his numbers are fairly constant in the Pagan era - right up until Whitnall's permanent move to defence in 2006, when he explodes for an extra 20-odd goals... That doesn't surprise me at all, as Whitnall's tendency to drop into space 30-40 meters out is a direct conflict with Fevola's preferred long leads into that same space

That doesn't work either mate. Statistically Fev's drop in 05 was as significant as his rise in 06. As Lance spent a significant part of 05 down back shouldn't Fev have increased his goal output that year.


To summarise

Whitnall's career numbers improved year by year until Hamill left, when they dropped dramatically

But was this the only reason. The whole team struggled to adjust especially after 2002.

Whitnall struggled constantly after Fevola was made the prime target by Pagan

In a partnership it is not always about them both getting bags. At times especially in 04, the NAB cup and the start of 05 they worked well together. The fact that Lance started to spend more time down back has distorted the numbers.

Fevola's numbers improved dramatically after Whitnall went to defence

.

Not totally supported by the evidence. In 05 Lance played a lot of time down back and Fev had his worst year goalwise under DP. Fev also kicked three of his best bags that year with Lance forward.

In 06 Fev was pretty much our only focal point so of course he kicked more goals Little Eddie was next best at 20, but does that make the forward line effective and prove that Lance and Fev can't establish a working partnership?

It is now 6 years (going on 7) since Whitnall averaged more than 2 goals per game

Not quite right and Lance's role has varied over that time not to mention the injuries. I'm not sure how that proves Lance and Fev can't work together.

Would it be fair to say that Whitnall is at best, a decisively average forward at this point in his career? As a comparison, the much maligned Kent Kingsley averaged slightly under 2 goals per game for his career at Geelong - which puts him in basically the same tier as Whitnall...

That post gives the impression that this post was more about bagging Big Red than if Fev and Lance can work effectively in the forward line together. Compare Fev and Kingsley they are both Full Forwards, Lance is not and nor has he always played forward.


You could also look at your figures and compare how the forwards have performed as pairings over the journey as it is really about an effective forward line not which player kicks the most goals. Fev picked up the Coleman in 06 with the most goals for us in a fair while, but we still scored the spoon. We actually kicked our most goals in 05 as a team under Pagan, yet at the same time Fev goalwise, had his worst year under DP

I will reiterate. Fev and Lance have shown in the past that they can work well together up forward for us. Not all the time, but in a struggling side they have proved very effective at various times. For numerous reasons we just haven't seen enough of it.

The question really is can they recapture the times they have looked like a well oiled machine together. As I said in my original post in this thread I have some niggling doubts about Lance, but you just can't say that the big fella and Fev can't work as a team. For that matter I imagine all our forwards have to adjust their game to allow for Fev's style of play.

Essay ended

 

[murphster]

How many times does Lance have to prove himself to his naysayers before they back the hell off. Fevola needs to learn to work with the other forwards and not try and make everything about him kicking goals,

Example 1 his mark into Whitnalls back on the weekend rather than dragging his man away from the contest and letting Lance take the mark, which he was in the perfect position to do, he does the same thing on numerous occasions. Example 2 he tried to take a mark over Fischer last year where Fish had the sit and would have taken the mark comfortably, and was actually paid the mark if my memory serves me correctly, but Fev had to take the kick because he had dislocated Fish's shoulder and he could not take the kick and consequently missed most of the year, again on that occasion Fev should have led his man away from the contest but didn't.

While Fev is a great forward he needs to learn to help his other forwards by leading his opponent away from the contest when appropriate. A better set up in my opinion would be Lance playing out of the goal square and Fev, who is a better kick from 50 than he is from 30, starting about 25mtrs out from goal and leading out to the 50 while leaving the space behind him for players like Lance and others to work and lead into.

While Fev did a great job last year we can not win a Premierships with 1 player kicking 80 goals and the next best at 20 goals, we would be much better served with Fev kicking 60, Lance kicking 40-50 and 2 or 3 others kicking 20 and 30s, but for this to happen Fev needs to contain himself at times and give others a chance to get into the game and the goals.

A Premiership forward line consists of a group of players working together to kick goals, not 1 forward crashing every pack and trying to kick as many goals himself as he can, we need a cohesive and cooperative forward structure before we can expect success.

Here is 1 idea that the coaching group should be looking at, Fev is a dead eye **** from the left side of the forward line but a sketchy proposition at best from the right hand side, so he should lead up the middle or to the left and leave the right side for the other forwards to work in, i know this is an anomoly as being a right foot kick he should be better from the right side of the field, as it opens up the goal mouth, yet he isn't, just like it should be easier for him to kick goals from 20-30mtrs out than 50 yet he is a much better chance from 50, an enigma wrapped in a conundrum inside an enigma, that is our Fev. Therefore if, as i said earlier, he starts at 25mtrs out from goal, leads out to the 50 either straight up the guts or to the left which is his best scoring positions on the ground, this then leaves all the space behind him and to the right for the other forwards to work in and kick more goals for the team, which is the idea of the game, a team game.

Lance will come good once he settles back into the forward line, after nearly 2 years in defence, and the permanent forwards learn to work together as a unit and play to each others strengths rather than everyone attacking the same contest.

 

[btdg]

Although just to nitpick the stats you have used mate I think 28 goals divided by 14 games in 2002 could workout to be an average of 2 Even his 2001 figures are close enough to two to be statistically insignificant.

As I said, the last time Whitnall averaged MORE than 2 goals per game, was in 2000 - 2 goals per game being a round number, and a fairly reasonable benchmark for a quality CHF in my opinion

That post gives the impression that this post was more about bagging Big Red than if Fev and Lance can work effectively in the forward line together. Compare Fev and Kingsley they are both Full Forwards, Lance is not and nor has he always played forward.

You could also look at your figures and compare how the forwards have performed as pairings over the journey as it is really about an effective forward line not which player kicks the most goals. Fev picked up the Coleman in 06 with the most goals for us in a fair while, but we still scored the spoon. We actually kicked our most goals in 05 as a team under Pagan, yet at the same time Fev goalwise, had his worst year under DP

I will reiterate. Fev and Lance have shown in the past that they can work well together up forward for us. Not all the time, but in a struggling side they have proved very effective at various times. For numerous reasons we just haven't seen enough of it.

The question really is can they recapture the times they have looked like a well oiled machine together. As I said in my original post in this thread I have some niggling doubts about Lance, but you just can't say that the big fella and Fev can't work as a team. For that matter I imagine all our forwards have to adjust their game to allow for Fev's style of play.

Essay ended

I'm not meaning to bag Lance, I just think he is drastically over-rated as a forward, and not just by Carlton supporters, but by everyone. As the stats show, his last decent year up forward was 7 years ago - since then, he has struggled with weight problems, injury and consistency, as well as a game plan that is no longer based around him.

He is now an extremely limited, middle of the road forward who doesn't fit particularly well with our primary target. To his credit, he seems to have got his weight issues under control, and developed into a handy defender playing that 'zoning off' role, but such a role is very much aligned with either confidence or courage. Whitnall is a confidence player - kind of like Jason Cloke was for Collingwood in their 2 grand final years; we can all remember how effective Cloke was, and how quickly that dropped off when he lost his mojo. Plus, with Waite doing well in defence, O'Hailpin coming on strong as a big body to mark the gorillas, and Thornton's agility providing more run out of defence, defensive opportunities seem limited for Lance.

As I said earlier in the thread, I see Whitnall being an important part of our team still. He can still go forward and stretch defences, and he can go back and fill gaps in defence. He can play in bursts up on the wing and will create match-up problems wherever he goes. But he's not the player we all thought he would be, and he's surely on borrowed time with Carlton, as he's probably outside our best 18 right now, with only his versatility keeping him in the 22. And the sad thing is, he'd be a great fit at a number of other clubs. Imagine him at Geelong, with Mooney in the Hamill role and Ottens patrolling the goal-square. Or even Collingwood... (horror)

 

[mediumsizered]

Example 1 his mark into Whitnalls back on the weekend rather than dragging his man away from the contest and letting Lance take the mark, which he was in the perfect position to do, he does the same thing on numerous occasions. Example 2 he tried to take a mark over Fischer last year where Fish had the sit and would have taken the mark comfortably, and was actually paid the mark if my memory serves me correctly, but Fev had to take the kick because he had dislocated Fish's shoulder and he could not take the kick and consequently missed most of the year, again on that occasion Fev should have led his man away from the contest but didn't.

While Fev is a great forward he needs to learn to help his other forwards by leading his opponent away from the contest when appropriate. A better set up in my opinion would be Lance playing out of the goal square and Fev, who is a better kick from 50 than he is from 30, starting about 25mtrs out from goal and leading out to the 50 while leaving the space behind him for players like Lance and others to work and lead into.

Lance will come good once he settles back into the forward line, after nearly 2 years in defence, and the permanent forwards learn to work together as a unit and play to each others strengths rather than everyone attacking the same contest.

Example 3: Round 15, 2002. Fev tries to take a 'speccie' over Whitnall resulting in an injury to Whitnall's shoulder & ruling him out for the rest of the season. You correctly say that in these situations Fev should be leading his opponent away from the contest. Barry Hall regularly does it, as does Fraser Gehrig.

I definitely agree with your thought that Lance should be playing from the goal square with Fev playing in front of him. I think opposition defenders & their coaches would be nervous about being left one out with Lance that close to goal & Fev is a much better kick for goal from 30+ metres than he is inside 30, when he tends to only take a couple of steps & then tries to steer the ball through the goals.

 

[drusswaylander]

I'm not meaning to bag Lance

,
Of course you are

I just think he is drastically over-rated as a forward, and not just by Carlton supporters, but by everyone. As the stats show, his last decent year up forward was 7 years ago - since then, he has struggled with weight problems, injury and consistency, as well as a game plan that is no longer based around him.

That is your opinion and the stats don't back up your contention at all when you take into account how many games he has played down back. You keep on dismissing his injuries and don't take into account how well he has played when injury free. Lies lies and damn statistics. The stats do not tell the whole story and this is another case of that. Even Fev can't kick goals when he isn't playing or if he played down back. He sure didn't get many goals the quarter he spent on Gehrig

He is now an extremely limited, middle of the road forward who doesn't fit particularly well with our primary target

.

Again your opinion. Our primary target struggles to fit in well with most of our forwards Lance has actually shown he can work with him better than most we have tried.Score assists, lead up play? As I stated before you can't just judge by goal output. Not that we have had many wins for quite awhile, but I think you will find a pretty fair percentage of them happened while both Lance and Fev were in the forward line working well. Both players being in the same forward line has not happened as many times as you obviously think. We will not move up the ladder with a just kick it to Fev mentality. We need a forward line not just a supporting cast for Fev.

Whitnall is a confidence player - kind of like Jason Cloke was for Collingwood in their 2 grand final years; we can all remember how effective Cloke was, and how quickly that dropped off when he lost his mojo.

Comparing him to Cloke doesn't help your credibility

As I said earlier in the thread, I see Whitnall being an important part of our team still

.
How can he be such an important part of our team if he is so average?

And the sad thing is, he'd be a great fit at a number of other clubs.

Hmmm. He isn't good enough for a wooden spoon team yet he would do well at a number of other teams?

As I said, the last time Whitnall averaged MORE than 2 goals per game, was in 2000 - 2 goals per game being a round number, and a fairly reasonable benchmark for a quality CHF in my opinion

Two goals per game is a good benchmark for a quality CHF yet you dismiss his 2002 figures. You realise that he also played a number of the early games that year in defence? Brittain used him as a MrFix it as well He has played so much down back that you just can't compare the stats that way.

When fit and I agree that has been problematic at times, Lance has shown he can work with Fev We will see how he goes

 

[drusswaylander]

Example 3: Round 15, 2002. Fev tries to take a 'speccie' over Whitnall resulting in an injury to Whitnall's shoulder & ruling him out for the rest of the season. You correctly say that in these situations Fev should be leading his opponent away from the contest. Barry Hall regularly does it, as does Fraser Gehrig.

I definitely agree with your thought that Lance should be playing from the goal square with Fev playing in front of him. I think opposition defenders & their coaches would be nervous about being left one out with Lance that close to goal & Fev is a much better kick for goal from 30+ metres than he is inside 30, when he tends to only take a couple of steps & then tries to steer the ball through the goals.

Lance had been playing well up until then as well Although a number of his early games had been down back due to our injuries.
We complain about later years, but we had some ordinary players getting games for us that year

Doesn't help my case that they can work together though so I will sweep that one under the rug

 

[Johnny_3]

listening on the radio the other night.

when whitnal was going for a mark. his openent went for a spoil.

Commentator: Thats as close as whitnals brother will ever get

or something along those lines. absolute pissa

 

[Andyt30]

bring Whitnall back up the field for another avenue to goal
Fev will no doubt Will lead Carltons Goal kicking yet again
and kick hopefully kick 100 this year he'll be hard to catch

hopefully Rd 1 he'll kick a bagfull against Richmond
whitnall to kick a few as well
least this year we'll have more goal kickers
and able to play out 4 full quarters hopefully not to loose the lead in the last Quarter give the opposition back their own medicine eg margin wise make em feel like it feels to get smashed by 80+