Who will play more games next year?

[DaSawx]

Why does Hocking need X-Factor? He's a inside mid, His job is to give TO the X-Factor players

Yep, he doesn't need it

 

[GoDons]

But hang on, it was said that others are above Hocking because they have x-factor.

Reimers, Houli etc.

They have pace, they have skill.
So they have x-factor, I get it.

But Hocking gets the ball more than them, is that x-factor is isn't it?

If Kane Kornes has x-factor, because he can get the footy, why do we not play Hocking because he isn't fast and he doesn't have Buckley type skills when he can get the footy and he can run all day?

And Kelvin, Kane Cornes was a poor mans Kane Cornes when he started.

I know Hocking's been successful at VFL level and can find the ball, I don't question that whatsoever.

What I do question is whether he'll be able to carry across his strong VFL form to AFL form. I'm not convinced that he's going to be the great ballwinner he is at VFL level at AFL level.

Sure, he's got the runs on the board at VFL level but so did Ken Hall and so did Jordan Doering and they simply couldn't do what they did at VFL level at AFL level. Hocking may be better equipped than them, but that doesn't mean he'll cut it.

Hocking may have x-factor, I'm just a little bit sceptical at the moment.

 

[GoDons]

Well it's rumoured that Jobe wasn't rated by 15 other clubs, certainly not highly enough to be taken 1st or 2nd round

& Kirk wasn't rated enough to get drafted whatsoever, he was working at Rebel in Sydney with a mate of mine before working his way off the rookie list. Similar story to Foley at Richmond, also only rated enough for the rookie list

Bottom line is I don't know either. I am saying I would definitely give him a shot, coz there's a spot there for him with our plethora of light bodied midfielders

I think he's worth a shot as well, but I'm not counting on him to become entrenched in the senior side.

I have doubts about him, that's about it. I'm not ruling him out by any means.

He could well stand up against the odds like Kirk and Watson, or he could fall by the wayside like so many others.

 

[GoDons]

I find it interesting that people bring up Houli, Reimers and Hislop in front of Hocking despite the fact that Hocking played more consistant footy than any of them during the season. It shows how much you can miss by not seeing regular Bendigo games. They may end up being better than Hocking but the hype that goes with them coming from last years draft tends to over shadow their real form.
I am not going to say Hocking is a certain to make a 100 game player but at the moment he is on track and he had the most consistant form of all the young mids over the course of the whole year in 2007 for Bendigo.
You say sure he can find the ball at VFL level but it is harder at AFL level and in the next breath you are saying that Hislop, Houli and Reimers wont have any problems despite being behind Hocking performance wise in the VFL and not doing much more than Hocking at TAC/U18 level. Go back and watch a few games and find out how many Houli possesions in Bendigo games came from Hocking handballs.
I will say it again , i dont think Hocking will be a star onballer or the match turner but he will be IMO a good midfielder who can get run with jobs done but is not just a tagger. He has the engine and has shown not just in the VFL but also in TAC Cup he knows where to go to find the footy. He wont be the super star mid or the highlight guy but he will do the job.

I enver siad that Hislop, Houli and Reimers won't have any problems finding the ball, I said that they had a greater propensity to make a difference. I saw a fair bit of Houli and Hislop as juniors and have seen the match turning potential. I saw Kyle Reimers dominate the first half of the final against North Ballarat. When he went down, the match changed.

I didn't see Hocking at TAC Cup level, but from what I have seen of him at Bendigo (admittedly I have seen no where near as much as you), he isn't the player that's ever the key factor in the match. I just don't see him as anything more than important.

So many guys have been terrific VFL players (like Ken Hall and Jordan Doering) but just haven't been able to transfer it to the AFL arena. That's why I question whether Hocking has the necessary spark to be a factor at AFL level.

 

[GoDons]

How much have you seen of him becasue he has been doing it regulary at TAC Cup and VFL level for some years now and is one of the few who do it well in the contested training drills. Blocking is a fair bit of natural instinct and trust me Hocking has it.

I'll take your word for it.

I'd just like to make it clear that I do think Hocking could become a reasonable AFL footballer, it's more that I'm unconvinced.

There's a big difference between AFL and VFL, and only so many guys can make the jump.

Hopefully, Heath makes it and crushes my doubts with some strong AFL performances.

 

[drew_j]

No, except Jetta.

I think it will be 2009 though before we see big numbers and game time from Dempsey.

God I hope you are wrong. Someone I'd like to see get some game time in at this early stage of his development. Hell, I'd take just not being injured at least in the VFL and stake a place in 09 as you say.

 

[ant555]

I enver siad that Hislop, Houli and Reimers won't have any problems finding the ball, I said that they had a greater propensity to make a difference. I saw a fair bit of Houli and Hislop as juniors and have seen the match turning potential. I saw Kyle Reimers dominate the first half of the final against North Ballarat. When he went down, the match changed.

I didn't see Hocking at TAC Cup level, but from what I have seen of him at Bendigo (admittedly I have seen no where near as much as you), he isn't the player that's ever the key factor in the match. I just don't see him as anything more than important.

So many guys have been terrific VFL players (like Ken Hall and Jordan Doering) but just haven't been able to transfer it to the AFL arena. That's why I question whether Hocking has the necessary spark to be a factor at AFL level.

Interesting that you bring up Reimer's domination of the final against NTH Ball when Hocking was easily BOG that day and was the key factor for us setting up the lead we had with 29 possessions and three goals up to 3/4 time.
Reimers played one good quarter that day and yes it was very good .
The game changed that day when several things happened. Reimers and Johns got injured, Dyson was playing injured and Hocking and Johnson ran out of legs when we couldnt rotate the midfield as we had no bench.
I guess you notive the more flashy things in footy as you keep saying Hocking is never the key factor in a match yet he had a couple of 30 possession games and 5 games where he had 25 to 30 possessions. In the games he had 25 plus possessions he was the leading goal assist player on the ground.
I understand that you can question if Hocking will make the step up. It is the same question that hangs over any young kid and with Hocking not being super star material there is more of a question over him being able to take that next step. My argument against your comments is you keep saying he doesnt change games or have an influence on games when he clearly has in a number of Bendigo games and he did at TAC Cup level where he won a B&F with Eastern.
I guess we will see. I have been wrong in the past and no doubt will be in the future but i am reasonably confident that Hocking will be ok at AFL level. Not a star , not a Judd or Dal Santo or Crawford but a good solid midfielder.

 

[TheDon35]

Interesting that you bring up Reimer's domination of the final against NTH Ball when Hocking was easily BOG that day and was the key factor for us setting up the lead we had with 29 possessions and three goals up to 3/4 time.
Reimers played one good quarter that day and yes it was very good .
The game changed that day when several things happened. Reimers and Johns got injured, Dyson was playing injured and Hocking and Johnson ran out of legs when we couldnt rotate the midfield as we had no bench.
I guess you notive the more flashy things in footy as you keep saying Hocking is never the key factor in a match yet he had a couple of 30 possession games and 5 games where he had 25 to 30 possessions. In the games he had 25 plus possessions he was the leading goal assist player on the ground.
I understand that you can question if Hocking will make the step up. It is the same question that hangs over any young kid and with Hocking not being super star material there is more of a question over him being able to take that next step. My argument against your comments is you keep saying he doesnt change games or have an influence on games when he clearly has in a number of Bendigo games and he did at TAC Cup level where he won a B&F with Eastern.
I guess we will see. I have been wrong in the past and no doubt will be in the future but i am reasonably confident that Hocking will be ok at AFL level. Not a star , not a Judd or Dal Santo or Crawford but a good solid midfielder.

I guess then the arguement is do we want to give time to someone who will just be an ok midfielder at the expense of others who will be very good mids - Houli, Hisslop, Myers, Jetta, Dempsey.

I personally would much rather see all 5 of these guys running through our midfield before Hocking plays. They all have far bigger upsides than Hocking IMO.

 

[ant555]

I guess then the arguement is do we want to give time to someone who will just be an ok midfielder at the expense of others who will be very good mids - Houli, Hisslop, Myers, Jetta, Dempsey.

I personally would much rather see all 5 of these guys running through our midfield before Hocking plays. They all have far bigger upsides than Hocking IMO.

Every side has good solid midfielders that are ok. Houli and Hislop may be better in the future but they have not done any more yet . Houli is at the same level as Hocking currently but Hislop has some area's he has to imporve in including getting rid of the dinky little chip kicks he does a lot off.
There is a lot of hype on Hislop for a guy whop had an up and down season last year. Dont get me wrong i like him as a player but he a few areas he has to improve in.
Dempsey isnt really competing for the same spot. His value will be as a winger.
Jetta is several seasons away from maybe playing midfield. He has a lot of work to go before he has an engine close enough to play midfield on a regular basis.
There is no point putting Jetta or Dempsey up against Hocking for a spot in the side as they will be taking on a different role. You cant fill the midfield with outside mids. Hocking and Hislop would be more likely to be competing for the same spot and i think that Hocking currently has the better ability to run all day.

 

[Slattery_20]

I guess then the arguement is do we want to give time to someone who will just be an ok midfielder at the expense of others who will be very good mids - Houli, Hisslop, Myers, Jetta, Dempsey.

I personally would much rather see all 5 of these guys running through our midfield before Hocking plays. They all have far bigger upsides than Hocking IMO.

I'd take the guy who's proven he can play Senior football and mix it up physically every time
I don't see what the big problem is
We've had MJ, Pev come off the rookie list before as nuggety inside or back pocket types
We've had flashy Rioli & Lovett also off the rookie list
& all 4 100 game players & became very important. I think people place far too much credos on draft position - exactly how far behind a late pick like Reimers is a rookie lister? not much

What we need right now are midfielders who can step up and run all day.
This is exactly what Hocking provides

 

[Longy413]

Why does Hocking need X-Factor? He's a inside mid, His job is to give TO the X-Factor players

He doesn't, and you're right.

Sure, he's got the runs on the board at VFL level but so did Ken Hall and so did Jordan Doering and they simply couldn't do what they did at VFL level at AFL level. Hocking may be better equipped than them, but that doesn't mean he'll cut it.

Ken Hall and Jordan Doering did it playing across half back.
Hocking has done it in the midfield.

Ken Hall and Jordan Doering did it after they'd been in the system.
Hocking did it, in what was really his first year, given 2006 was a write off with injury.

God I hope you are wrong. Someone I'd like to see get some game time in at this early stage of his development. Hell, I'd take just not being injured at least in the VFL and stake a place in 09 as you say.

I think we just have to appreciate that he has a young frame, he hasn't played a lot of footy as a teenager and that he's had two injury riddled years.

I'd love him to play every game, reality is he should be nursed through and if we get 14-17 games out of him in 2008 then it's a great return.

 

[TheDon35]

Every side has good solid midfielders that are ok. Houli and Hislop may be better in the future but they have not done any more yet . Houli is at the same level as Hocking currently but Hislop has some area's he has to imporve in including getting rid of the dinky little chip kicks he does a lot off.
There is a lot of hype on Hislop for a guy whop had an up and down season last year. Dont get me wrong i like him as a player but he a few areas he has to improve in.
Dempsey isnt really competing for the same spot. His value will be as a winger.
Jetta is several seasons away from maybe playing midfield. He has a lot of work to go before he has an engine close enough to play midfield on a regular basis.
There is no point putting Jetta or Dempsey up against Hocking for a spot in the side as they will be taking on a different role. You cant fill the midfield with outside mids. Hocking and Hislop would be more likely to be competing for the same spot and i think that Hocking currently has the better ability to run all day.

My arguement is that i'd rather develop the player who is going to be of greater value to the side over the next 5 - 6 years as oposed to playing 'OK' players now. Houli is certainly a better proposition currently in my view and whilst Hislop had an up and down year, that was largely due to the fact that he was injured.

Yes Jetta and dempsey aren't inside mid's but they will still be pushing through midfield rotations hence are catagorised broadly in roughly the same catagory. If you want to look at Hocking types - Slattery, Watson, Peverill and McVeigh are all your nuggety, plucky inside mid's / come stoppers (with the exception of Watson). These guys can't all play in the same side and are all ahead of Hocking. There's an arguement that he could be ahead of Pev and possibly Slattery I guess but those guys have the runs on the board. This puts him right back in the pack if you ask me.

 

[TheDon35]

I'd take the guy who's proven he can play Senior football and mix it up physically every time
I don't see what the big problem is
We've had MJ, Pev come off the rookie list before as nuggety inside or back pocket types
We've had flashy Rioli & Lovett also off the rookie list
& all 4 100 game players & became very important. I think people place far too much credos on draft position - exactly how far behind a late pick like Reimers is a rookie lister? not much

What we need right now are midfielders who can step up and run all day.
This is exactly what Hocking provides

Hocking hasn't proved himself any more than the guys in question. My arguement isn't that he's coming off the rookie list just that I don't think he's as good a player as other youngsters we've got to choose from.

Give first priority to the players who have the scope to develop into A graders before your 'OK' players.

 

[DaSawx]

I'd give games to the guys who are ready for senior footy and can help us win games next year as well as develop.

A lot of the young players are going to rotate, need vfl time, get injured, if Hocking has the tank and smarts to tag players well then he should play, you can't through Houli, Reimers and Jetta in, expect them to play every week and magically think they'll reach their full potential straight away, they'll be plenty of opportunites for most if not all our young players to have a go next year.

 

[TheDon35]

I'd give games to the guys who are ready for senior footy and can help us win games next year as well as develop.

A lot of the young players are going to rotate, need vfl time, get injured, if Hocking has the tank and smarts to tag players well then he should play, you can't through Houli, Reimers and Jetta in, expect them to play every week and magically think they'll reach their full potential straight away, they'll be plenty of opportunites for most if not all our young players to have a go next year.

I don't expect to through reimers in. I think he'll probably only get a handful of games. I certainly expect Houli and Jetta to play the vast majority of the season if both stay fit.

I just think there's very little point in trading off short term wins for long term development. I also don't believe Hocking is anywhere near as advanced or as good a player as what many in here believe and will struggle at AFL level.

 

[ant555]

My arguement is that i'd rather develop the player who is going to be of greater value to the side over the next 5 - 6 years as oposed to playing 'OK' players now. Houli is certainly a better proposition currently in my view and whilst Hislop had an up and down year, that was largely due to the fact that he was injured.

Yes Jetta and dempsey aren't inside mid's but they will still be pushing through midfield rotations hence are catagorised broadly in roughly the same catagory. If you want to look at Hocking types - Slattery, Watson, Peverill and McVeigh are all your nuggety, plucky inside mid's / come stoppers (with the exception of Watson). These guys can't all play in the same side and are all ahead of Hocking. There's an arguement that he could be ahead of Pev and possibly Slattery I guess but those guys have the runs on the board. This puts him right back in the pack if you ask me.

You can have an ok midfielder and he can be of value to the side for 10 years. Im all for playing bokes who are ready to play while we develop others. Dempsey was a prime example last year. He should not have played the Richmond game as he wasnt ready preperation wise. Didnt have enough footy or training leading into it and suffered another injury becasue of it.
You play the blokes who are ready to go in round one and who will fit the midfield rotations. You need the 8 or 9 hard running mids on your list and Hocking is one of them.
I wont argue the point about Houli v Hocking. Personally having seen both of them play over 20 games i dont think their is a lot between them but i dont have a problem with people rating Houli higher.
Hislop on the other hand does have some ground to make up and it wasn't simply becasue he had injuries last year.He has to work on his kicking to start with. Kicks a lot of short high dinky pass's(at training as well). His midfield work is not as advanced as Hocking or Houli's which is why he was played a lot at half back. He has potential but he has some work to do on a few things. He also has to alter his style a bit. I was watching one game with the father of another of our players and his comment was if he doesnt get smarter with the way he attacks the contest he wont get to 20 games becasue he will always be injured.
And trust me Jetta wont be taking in any midfield rotations or time through the middle any time soon. He has improved his fitness a heap but he just doesnt have the endurance to do it. He will be used as a small forward who can hoepfully kick 2 or 3 goals a week along with Davey.
No player currently has the runs on the board with the new coach. It has been said a number of times , those who have the fitness levels and the form early on will be the ones picke in the side. This is why i suspect Gumby may be in for a struggle as i dont think he has quite got his preperation and his body correct just yet. (sorry for going a bit left field with the last part of the comment).

I personally dont think we have got any genuine "A" graders , other than Myers who i think will be a star but he is a story for next year. What i think we need to develop is a group of 6 or 7 above average mids who know how to do the hard yards and work as a group as i think most of our guys are the "B" grade mids. Not that there's anything wrong with that. If you can get them all working hard and running hard you can then add the x factor with guys like Dempsey and Lovett and possibly Jetta and Davey down the track.

 

[Longy413]

I don't expect to through reimers in. I think he'll probably only get a handful of games. I certainly expect Houli and Jetta to play the vast majority of the season if both stay fit.

I reckon Hocking is well ahead of Houli in development terms.

 

[Slattery_20]

I don't expect to through reimers in. I think he'll probably only get a handful of games. I certainly expect Houli and Jetta to play the vast majority of the season if both stay fit.

I just think there's very little point in trading off short term wins for long term development. I also don't believe Hocking is anywhere near as advanced or as good a player as what many in here believe and will struggle at AFL level.

Two wins out of the eight with a young list, It'd be self-defeating to ignore either wins or development

I watched Hocking's single game at AFL level, & I'll tell you what he struggled less than Houli or Hislop (or Dempsey or Jetta for that matter)
Throwing skinny kids up against grown men won't help them if they only get injured
Rebuilding a side isn't just about finding the A-graders. It's about finding these guys, but also finding the nuts'n'bolts types & moulding them into a team

 

[T Rick]

Do you think Jetta will play more as a forward or a midfielder?

 

[kelvin_sheedy]

I reckon Hocking is well ahead of Houli in development terms.

At the start of the year Houli was getting bigger numbers and was playing much better than Hocking in the VFL. Towards the end injury took its toll and he slowed down.

He looked a class above. Hocking looked like another Doering/Hall/Carter.

Hocking has only been gathering momentum due to one good game in a final and being a hard worker on and off the field.

Great if he makes it but I'll be backing Houli to be a better player next year and for the next 10.

 

[GoDons]

Interesting that you bring up Reimer's domination of the final against NTH Ball when Hocking was easily BOG that day and was the key factor for us setting up the lead we had with 29 possessions and three goals up to 3/4 time.
Reimers played one good quarter that day and yes it was very good .
The game changed that day when several things happened. Reimers and Johns got injured, Dyson was playing injured and Hocking and Johnson ran out of legs when we couldnt rotate the midfield as we had no bench.
I guess you notive the more flashy things in footy as you keep saying Hocking is never the key factor in a match yet he had a couple of 30 possession games and 5 games where he had 25 to 30 possessions. In the games he had 25 plus possessions he was the leading goal assist player on the ground.
I understand that you can question if Hocking will make the step up. It is the same question that hangs over any young kid and with Hocking not being super star material there is more of a question over him being able to take that next step. My argument against your comments is you keep saying he doesnt change games or have an influence on games when he clearly has in a number of Bendigo games and he did at TAC Cup level where he won a B&F with Eastern.
I guess we will see. I have been wrong in the past and no doubt will be in the future but i am reasonably confident that Hocking will be ok at AFL level. Not a star , not a Judd or Dal Santo or Crawford but a good solid midfielder.

I don't question that Hocking was our best player that day, he played a very good match. And I'll agree that it wasn't just Reimers' injury that turned the tide, I went too far on that.

I wouldn't say that I don't notice the guy giving off the ball, as those guys are essential. But at VFL level, I tend to look for the guys that look like they stand out amongst others as to me, it's those guys that have the greatest potenial for AFL football. By 'standing out' I don't necessarily mean kicking miracle goals and taking on every guy in sight, it can be things like dominating stoppages and clearances and those kind of things. I never said that he doesn't influence games, I just don't feel that I've seen enough dominance from him. Hocking was magnificent against North Ballarat, I just didn't get the domination feel from him.

I think and hope he can make it as a tagger, I just don't think that he'll ever be anything more than that and there's a possibility he simply won't make it at all.

 

[Longy413]

At the start of the year Houli was getting bigger numbers and was playing much better than Hocking in the VFL. Towards the end injury took its toll and he slowed down.

I take it you are one of those people that only notices a bloke when he has the footy.

Houli gets lost in traffic, loses his opponent in traffic and only runs one way.
He u-turns far too often and handballs when he should kick.

Knights won't stand for that, he has a lot to learn in that regard.
A lot to learn.

He looked a class above. Hocking looked like another Doering/Hall/Carter.

Apart from none of them playing in the midfield...

Hocking has only been gathering momentum due to one good game in a final and being a hard worker on and off the field.

Hocking was an outstanding junior that came with a big reputation despite being a rookie. He's a good leader with a sensational work ethic.

He's gathering momentum because he continues to do everything right.

Houli should be a better player, he has more tools.
Hocking will play more senior footy next year, because he's more ready for it.

Houli has a hell of a lot to learn.

 

[TheDon35]

Two wins out of the eight with a young list, It'd be self-defeating to ignore either wins or development

I watched Hocking's single game at AFL level, & I'll tell you what he struggled less than Houli or Hislop (or Dempsey or Jetta for that matter)
Throwing skinny kids up against grown men won't help them if they only get injured
Rebuilding a side isn't just about finding the A-graders. It's about finding these guys, but also finding the nuts'n'bolts types & moulding them into a team

I love it how people come on here and asume that because they watched the game, they must be right.

WE ALL WATCH THE GAMES KNOB!!!! That's how we formulate our opinions.

I would say that developing the potential high quality players should be a priority. If you see otherwise then so be it.

 

[TheDon35]

I reckon Hocking is well ahead of Houli in development terms.

Each to their own. I've got no doubt that Houli will develop into a far better all round footballer than Hocking.

 

[Longy413]

Each to their own. I've got no doubt that Houli will develop into a far better all round footballer than Hocking.

I agree, however Houli has a lot more to learn and needs another 12 months.

Houli should be the better footballer, all things being equal, but Hocking is ready to go in 2008. Houli isn't.