Why boycotting Israel matters

[AM]

You're becoming more and more unsettled and shouty, straughnny. Another post straight from the extreme Zionist song sheet.

Your first line of attack directed at me was the anti-Semite slur. Hard for that to stick not only because it's arrant nonsense but because my posts are quoting from the hundreds - and growing - peace loving Jewish folk who see the occupation and oppression first-hand.

The Israeli school children who abhor the governments ".....racist policy, which violates basic human rights and executes one law for Israelis and another for the Palestinians" And the former IDF soldiers from Breaking the Silence who are committed to ".....exposing the injustice of the occupation we were part of" And the Rabbis from the JVC Rabbinical Council who have said "Our message is simple: This is not what humans beings do to one another. And we will not stand idly by as our neighbours blood is shed" And Gideon Levy who said "Jewish propaganda persists.....their only response is to accuse anyone who criticises Israel of anti-Semitism" And Antony Loewenstein who has criticised people like you and other brainwashed lobbyists and fellow travellers of supporting policies that are ".... belligerent and far right ... that are pro settlement, pro occupation, anti-Arab and deeply racist"

Then there's the smear. Drivel such as the posts I quote from - these genuine informed humanitarian people - is spam. What diatribe. And phase three, shouty personal attacks designed to 'shut up'. It's all set out in Antony Loewenstein's book "My Israel Question" which, btw, a prominent Zionist and - now retired - Labor perennial back bencher tried to stop being published. An elected MP actively attempting censorship.

There are a myriad of good humanitarian Jewish folk - and growing - with open minds who see the injustice and speak out about it. Good Jewish folk who actually aren't brain washed and genuinely do want a fair peace. On the other hand there are others, like you, who are impediments to peace and who will never see more that the extreme Zionist propaganda to which Gideon Levy referred.

For those of independent thought I again draw attention to the following piece.

PEACE NOW

 

[AM]

An act of Rule of Law defiance. Why would an innocent person go to such extremes?

Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu is planning to push through a new law that would allow parliament to protect his immunity from prosecution, as he faces possible indictment in three corruption cases, according to leaks to the Israeli media.

 

[Zidane98]

Sorry but as an outside observer I call bs on the apartheid claims. Within Israel Arabs / Jews / Christians live side by side in harmony.

I get the impression that some think Palestine is blameless - that simply isnt the case, unless I am mistaken I am sure the likes of Hamas have said they want Israel destroyed. To me their actions do not suggest any desire to obtain peace.

 

[strauchnyy]

Am, you keep deflecting. You ignore the substance in my post and go on to mask your ignorance (and defeat at the debate at hand) by going on about “the good ol jewish folk’ bla bla bla. The very tiny minority of lefty Jewish folk who share your view. The very tiny minority.

Next you dismiss my facts as “Zionist song sheet”. Lol. They are facts, not some song sheet. And you are unable to debate them so you dismiss them to continue to spit out your drivel, which is all based on opinions.

I give you facts, you dismiss them and give opinions as facts.

You call Israel apartheid, I give you facts calling your ignorant drivel out and you dismiss this as a song sheet? Then to add self embarrassment, continue to spout out opinions of some tiny minority as facts to substantiate your view?

You are hysterical.

As I said, get a clue and stop spamming the thread with baseless opinionated drivel.

Israel is not an apartheid- fact

Israel have historically wanted peace and have shown this by offering land for peace on multiple occasions - fact

Palestinians have consistently rejected land for peace deals - fact

Palestinians have always resorted to terrorism and violence after rejecting land for peace - fact

Palestinian leaders pay terrorists a salary and abuse their own people - fact

Palestinians refuse to live peacefully with Israel - fact

Israel’s security around Gaza has almost completely prevented suicide attacks and has therefore helped prevent Israeli civilian deaths - fact

palestinian leadership in Gaza are terrorists - fact

Palestinian leaders have been corrupt and taken billions of aid for self gain at expense of their own people - fact

These are not song sheets, you cannot dismiss the above because they are facts. I expect you to deflect, I expect you to play the man. But the good ol Jewish folk bla.

Take some responsibility and admit these are some disastrous truths. Just like I have when admitting Israeli settlement expansion is wrong. You may get some respect at least

 

[strauchnyy]

Sorry but as an outside observer I call bs on the apartheid claims. Within Israel Arabs / Jews / Christians live side by side in harmony.

I get the impression that some think Palestine is blameless - that simply isnt the case, unless I am mistaken I am sure the likes of Hamas have said they want Israel destroyed. To me their actions do not suggest any desire to obtain peace.

You speak so much sense. Careful, AM will try to argue with you

 

[Zidane98]

You speak so much sense. Careful, AM will try to argue with you

I think he has some valid points about Israel but is far too one sided in the way he goes about it. Just recently he has painted out Israel as a violent country but yet there is this from Amnesty International & United Nations in regards to Hamas:

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/n...down-against-protesters-and-rights-defenders/

Right now Hamas have been violently suppressing their population who protest against their war on Israel.


The way I see it peace can happen with a proper two state solution if Hamas are destroyed. There can be no defending of them, they are a pure terrorist organisation plain and simple. They openly declare that they want to destroy Israel.


Israel for their part need to allow for a contiguous Palestinian territory, linking West Bank with Palestine. They need to remove themselves completely from Palestinian territory. Once Hamas is removed the blockade of Gaza Strip has to stop.

 

[Zidane98]

I see the claim of $10 million daily aid funding to Israel has resurfaced again.


Doing some research I have discovered that to be a false claim. It appears that figure is calculated by American Military spending on defences projects related to Israel which amounts to $3.8 billion annual or $10 million daily. That money does not go to Israel though, it goes to defence contractors & armed forces in the US. This is classed as Security Aid or Foreign Military financing - Israel receives none of this.

Economic aid amounts (financial assistance provided to foreign governments) can be found on wiki


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_foreign_aid


Israel received $16 million in economic assistance only for FY2017. This is money that Israel did actually receive. In comparison, Jordan receives over a billion dollars in economic aid. Anyone can see that the trend is for poorer nations to receive greater amounts of economic aid. Israel obviously does not need this assistance hence why it receives only $16 million in economic aid.


So I have to question the motive of anyone claiming that Israel is fighting a war to claim $10 million a day in money from the US. Because it just isn't true.

 

[Zidane98]

Any reason why the Palestinian Authority can't take control of Gaza and remove Hamas for good? They seem a much more reasonable government in terms of representing the interest of its citizens. I see they are in a significant ongoing dispute with Hamas.


What is the current voting system for government in Gaza? I find it hard to believe that the majority of every day residents in Gaza Strip want Hamas to continue its reign of terror.

 

[AM]

This is rinse and repeat stuff. We've been over this ground before in this thread with you. Even one of the posters on your side of the fence said you were wrong back then. You seem to think repeating the same stuff months later in some way makes it more credible.

*Source: The Congressional Research Service's report "U.S. Foreign Aid to Israel," written by Jeremy M. Sharp, Specialist in Middle Eastern Affairs, dated April 10, 2018.

According to the report, the United States gave Israel $3.1 billion for Fiscal Year 2018 in direct bilateral military aid (also referred to as Foreign Military Financing or FMF). Congress also authorized $705.8 million for "joint" U.S.-Israel missile defense programs (designed to protect Israeli territory from potential outside threats), bringing total military aid to Israel to more than $3.8 billion per year.

Put another way, American taxpayers give Israel over $10.5 million per day.

Dr. Zunes is an assistant professor in the Department of Politics at the University of San Francisco, goes further.

U.S. policy since 1984 has been that economic assistance to Israel must equal or exceed Israel's annual debt repayment to the United States. Unlike other countries, which receive aid in quarterly installments, aid to Israel since 1982 has been given in a lump sum at the beginning of the fiscal year, leaving the U.S. government to borrow from future revenues. Israel even lends some of this money back through U.S. treasury bills and collects the additional interest.

In addition, there is the more than $1.5 billion in private U.S. funds that go to Israel annually in the form of $1 billion in private tax-deductible donations and $500 million in Israeli bonds. The ability of Americans to make what amounts to tax-deductible contributions to a foreign government, made possible through a number of Jewish charities, does not exist with any other country. Nor do these figures include short- and long-term commercial loans from U.S. banks, which have been as high as $1 billion annually in recent years.

Whatever complexion who seek to put on it Israel is the beneficiary of aid and tax concessions unlike any the US provides elsewhere. And at a time when so many of their citizens are fighting homelessness and needing two and three jobs to keep food on their table and a roof over their heads.

As a matter of related interest.

In 2012, Israel’s former commander-in-chief said that between 2009 and 2012 American taxpayers had paid for more of his country’s defense budget than had Israeli taxpayers….

Israel also benefits in other ways, frequently due to legislative action by Congress. It enjoys free and even preferential trade status with the United States and runs a $9 billion trade surplus per annum.

THE COUNCIL FOR THE NATIONAL INTEREST

 

[Zidane98]

Whole different ball game if you are talking private donations. Hamas gets plenty from other ME backers who dont like Israel.

In terms of economic aid from the US Israel gets a neglible amount. That is a fact that nobody can argue.

Foreign military financing is not economic aid. It generally goes to those countries involved in wars. So it isnt surprising that Israel receives large amounts of military aid when Hamas regularly attacks it and has declared its intention to destroy Israel.

Iraq is a bigger receiver of military aid than Israel.

Once again the claim that Israel fights a war to claim $10 millon a day is absolutely false. I would seriously question the motivation of any individual that continues to claim this falsehood.

 

[strauchnyy]

Any reason why the Palestinian Authority can't take control of Gaza and remove Hamas for good? They seem a much more reasonable government in terms of representing the interest of its citizens. I see they are in a significant ongoing dispute with Hamas.


What is the current voting system for government in Gaza? I find it hard to believe that the majority of every day residents in Gaza Strip want Hamas to continue its reign of terror.

If you go back and read what happened you'll see how it unfolded. Essentially, gaza used to be under Israeli control with Israeli citizens living there. In 2005, Israel in a showing for peace, withdrew from gaza to give to the Palestinians to control... the very first time the Palestinians have ever been given land to control themselves. Israel forceably removed its own citizens (who refused to leave and were essentially ripped out of their homes) to hand to the Palestinian Authority.

Next, Hamas took power under the support of the gaza palestinians against the PA. Hamas then turned violent and murdered and removed the entire PA from Gaza. The PA just reside in the west bank and Hamas are in Gaza and their relationship is complicated and they essentially don't get on.. although youll see the PA ark up and condemn Israel for defending themselves against Hamas terrorism. So in essence, Israel gave gaza to forward peace... but got rockets and hamas instead.

The current system of governing in Gaza is Hamas call the shots and their shariah jihad terrorist military rules. there are no elections. No democracy. Strict shiariah law and no real rights for its people. They keep their citizens angry and deprived and use Israel as the reason for their suffering to breed hate and the next generation of terrorists. Depending where you find your sources, you;ll see they are majority supported in Gaza. However anyone who questions them are tortured, beaten or killed. Hamas kill their own people, withold aid (to instead be used towards terrorist activities against Israel - read about the "terror tunnels" and the concrete aid that went to those projects) and use their people as pawns in their fight against the Israelis (read about their human shield initiatives where theyhide weapns in hospitals and mosques, call their people to stand on roofs of terrorists whereabouts etc).

May give some clarity to your questions...

 

[Zidane98]

Was there a blockade of Gaza by Israel for the short period between withdrawal & Hamas assuming power?

Either way not a fan of the blockade, regardless of the security situation. Majority of Palestinians are good people, should not suffer because of a terrorist group controlling their nation.

 

[strauchnyy]

The blockade occured afterwards to prevent suicide attacks/other terrorist activities from occuring... I guess the blockade was put up to also stop weapons getting in and to ensure terrorists aren't getting out to kidnap civilians/soldiers which is what they were doing. In essence, it was put there to protect its Israeli civilians. The numbers (Israeli kidnappings/bombings have reduced significantly so it has worked). Of course most Palestinians are good people but my view is it is Hamas's fault there is a blockade because it must be there to stop the terrorism. Israel have a duty to protect its civilians. If the blockade goes down, Israeli civilians die and the Israeli government does (and must) put its own civilians at the top of the priority list. If there were no attacks there'd be no blockade... well at least on the Israeli side. You know Egypt have also imposed a blockade on their bordering side... which gets left out of the argument when the anti-Israel brigade argue their points. Egypt have the same blockade Israel does as they share the view that the alternative means danger for veryone else.

Hamas end their violent terror, blockade goes down. I don't like it too, but what is the alternative to Israel? With a violent group of people on their doorstep, meters away from civilian homes and schools. Israel didn't think they'd be facing rockets and more terrorism when they ripped their own people out of the land to hand over to the Palestinians. I guess I even thought the Palestinians would show more of a showing for peace, rather than voting for hamas to lead them.

 

[Zidane98]

Still don't agree with the blockade even with the security situation although I understand the reasons why it is enforced. Help the majority in Gaza who are good people. Open up the borders, allow trade and movement. Sure it'll be a headache having to screen everyone and everything who wants to travel in and out of Israel but that's a small price to pay for the freedom of nearly 2 million inhabitants in Gaza. And by blockading the place terrorists are able to use it to their advantage with rhetoric / propaganda.

 

[strauchnyy]

Still don't agree with the blockade even with the security situation although I understand the reasons why it is enforced. Help the majority in Gaza who are good people. Open up the borders, allow trade and movement. Sure it'll be a headache having to screen everyone and everything who wants to travel in and out of Israel but that's a small price to pay for the freedom of nearly 2 million inhabitants in Gaza. And by blockading the place terrorists are able to use it to their advantage with rhetoric / propaganda.

Agree with your sentiments but that's pretty much what they do already. Residents in Gaza move in & out with stringent screening processes, it isn't a full blockade where no one goes in or out, there are screening systems. It's just a pain. But it's kind of necessary for Israel to keep its civilians safe.

 

[Zidane98]

Agree with your sentiments but that's pretty much what they do already. Residents in Gaza move in & out with stringent screening processes, it isn't a full blockade where no one goes in or out, there are screening systems. It's just a pain. But it's kind of necessary for Israel to keep its civilians safe.

Very difficult for Palestinians to get in and out. My limited research indicates that Palestinians are virtually forbidden from travelling between West Bank & Gaza strip. Not good enough on Israel's part regardless of the security situation.

 

[AM]

For those of independent thought an address to the Unity Nations Security Council by a wonderful caring Jewish human rights lawyer, Emily Schaeffer Omer-man:




A former IDF soldier Yahuda Shaul

 

[Not Important]

For those of independent thought an address to the Unity Nations Security Council by a wonderful caring Jewish human rights lawyer, Emily Schaeffer Omer-man:

what a spectacular human being is emily. god love her.

 

[Zidane98]

Cant believe Trump is arrogant enough to believe he can solve all Israel / Palestine issues.

For me a proper two state solution is the only way. No Israeli presence in Palestine and a contigous link between Gaza / West Bank.

 

[strauchnyy]

Agree Zidane, I'm a big supporter of a 2 state solution (Gaza & West Bank with link in between to be future Palestine state). However, I just cannot see the Palestinians changing their views on Israel. That is, that they would unanimously accept living side by side with Jews. I recall recent polls indicated a third of palestinians support terrorism against Israelis. A third. That's a hell of a lot of deranged people that support stabbings, suicide bombings and car rammings at innocent civilians.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/241170

As long as Palestinian TV/educational systems etc. incites hatred, Palestinians will always refuse peace. They actually have micky mouse characters on children's shows calling for jews to be murdered. Where else in the world does this happen?

This was particularly disturbing: "The curriculum for 2018-2019 “deliberately omits any discussion of peace education or reference to any Jewish presence in Palestine before 1948,” the document says.

“Most troubling, there is a systematic insertion of violence, martyrdom and jihad across all grades and subjects in a more extensive and sophisticated manner, embracing a full spectrum of extreme nationalist ideas and Islamist ideologies that extend even into the teaching of science and mathematics,” it adds.

Among the examples is an image of a girl smiling at “heretics” being burned, a poem calling to “annihilate the remnants of the foreigners” after “eliminating the usurper,” and the description of Jews as corrupt, liars, sexual harassers and “enemies of Islam” who killed Prophet Muhammad."

It calls for the end of the State of Israel and establishing a Palestinian state in all of what is today Israel, the West Bank and Gaza, and says the takeover will be violent. It denies any Jewish connection with the land or with holy sites in Jerusalem and elsewhere"

“There is no excuse nor is there any justification. The PA takes hundreds of millions of euros and in return, teaches violence, hate and the sacrificing of young lives,” he said. “We hope this study will help put an end to the abuse and finally allow young Palestinians to receive meaningful peace education.”

https://www.timesofisrael.com/eu-to-probe-palestinian-textbooks-for-incitement-to-hatred-violence/

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/mickey-mouse-rip-off-spreads-hamas-message/

I find this the single greatest threat to a 2 state solution (keep in mind Israel has offered land for peace on numerous occasions, each getting rejected by Palestine at the time... showing Israel has come to the party towards a 2 state solution).

https://www.theisraelproject.org/is...peace-to-palestinians-and-then-being-rejected

Israel are not blameless and they have their fair share of nutters (the crazy settlers in the WB for example), but Israel have shown that they will remove nutters for peace (as they did with Gaza by ripping out the jewish population their before handing to the Palestinians... even though they got terror in return).

 

[AM]

Ah strauchnny, you are a character. I was going to let your attempt to humanise your Zionist extremism go through to the keeper, but I just can't let the piece of arrant nonsense about Israel controlling the "nutter" settlers go by. That nonsense particularly resonates with me having spoken to a friend not long back from a visit to Yasur. Her distinct take was the settlers are largely people who are hostile to Palestinians and it appears the Army does little in terms of restraint.

Let me quote from Emily Schaeffer Omer-Man's address to the UN Security Council just this month. You either didn't watch the linked address or assimilate it. Someone with primary knowledge.

She spoke of a Palestinian community:

......that was forced off its land by repeated and unbridled attacks against the residents and their livestock by neighbouring settlers. At times with the backing of the Israeli army, the body obligated under international humanitarian law to ensure the safety of the occupied Palestinian population. These same violent tactics led the access road to become closed to Palestinian use, open only to Israelis...........they continue to endure regular harassment and abuse by settlers and Israeli security personnel.

Beyond the well documented physical settler violence Palestinians systematically face, often while soldiers stand idly by, settlements serve as a hub of structural violence expanding into so-called security zones that robbed Palestinians of access to natural resources and sources of livelihood....

Israeli policy:

.....has simply been to make life increasingly unbearable and even unlivable with the hope of driving them out. This is the quiet deportation happening to communities all around the West Bank and its goal is to capture the maximum amount of land with the minimum amount of Palestinians.

If Israel was really serious about peace it would ensure "the prohibition on annexation and all its precursors" In other words, cease and desist now. But we know there is no appetite for this due to "the re-election of a leader who has consistently vowed not to end Israeli control over the Palestinian people and its territories." In fact, to expand it.

As Emily suggested in her concluding remarks, until Israel is serious about peace there will not be peace.

There will be neither peace nor security for Israelis or Palestinians without a major course correction.

Israel dominates this area economically, militarily, physically, bureaucratically...you name it. That course correction - namely stopping annexation and oppression - could start tomorrow. Annexation which Emily correctly spoke of as "the unilateral assertion of sovereignty over a foreign territory. It is also a major breach of the laws of war and of the United Nations Charter"

I no longer believe a two state solution is viable for the reasons Gideon Levy has said. Which are "Israel will never give-up the illegal occupation of the West Bank. A one state solution with equal rights is the only way"

Those of us who aren't Zionist indoctrinated know only too sadly the current leadership of Israel wants neither. Nor do much of the population seem concerned about a leader facing a number of corruption charges who,"is seeking to advance a bill which will curtail the power of the country’s Supreme Court, a move which could guarantee his immunity from prosecution for corruption"

Just why a people who have suffered so much throughout history would be so brutal, oppressive and lack any semblance of humanity astounds me.

 

[strauchnyy]

AM, I really don't get the point of your post above because I agreed with you about 'nutter' settlers. I think they are doing the exact opposite of the wider Israelis' values. You waffled on like I was in disagreement. The settlers (noting not all Israeli settlers are like this) who make like difficult in the WB for the Palestinians are deranged religious nutters. They are mostly despised in the rest of Israel by Israelis. On the other hand a third of ordinary palestinians support terrorism against Israeli civilians... that is HUGE.

Next.. I want to put this to bed. You say I am an zionist extremist? Why? Because I support jews' right to exist in a peaceful homeland? Because I call out Palestinian terrorism and refusal for peace? You will note I have been consistent in a 2 state solution... which means a state for the Palestinians (with the caveat they drop violence and terrorism.. something they refuse to do).. which means I want the Palestinians to have a state for there own next to Israel... Which means I also support the Palestinian people!

If that's what it means to be an extremist zionist then I bloody hope everyone is. Also you do realise that Zionism doesn't mean Palestinians are unable to have a land too, you know. It merely means that Jews have a homeland (next to Palestinians for example). The "Z" word has been twisted and turned to create Israelis as a monster seeking to take over the world.. which is sheer utter nonsense. You can be a zionist and an avid supporter of a 2 state solution.

This is in stark contrast to the way you post yet you consider me to be extreme? Mate, you are 100% fixed. 100% anti Israel and you are the one who is an extremist. You post opinionated propaganda with extreme one sided views.. as your own confirmation bias. See how you never are able to argue any of my factual points? Instead you deflect dismiss as "Zionist playbook propaganda" before posting opinionated extremist propaganda and then act like you are right? I post facts. You post opinions. You are just unable to argue my points because you know you can't. My points are not extremist.. posting about intentions and actions by the Pal leaders does not make me extreme because they are simply facts. I am bringing balance to these debates because otherwise they turn into complete utter anti-Israel fiction. It's cool to hate Israel these days. No matter where you look, they are demonised (usually for anti-semetic reasons) and unfairly judged and ripped apart. The right you have the neo nazis, the left you have even more anti-israel deranged BDS nutters, the arab world you have muslims who hate them. Just because the world is full of idiots, doesn't mean the idiots are right.

 

[AM]

The whole point of my post was to show the powers-that-be in Israel do not control the settlers who attack and harass the Palestinians as you were suggesting . My reason for quoting from the wonderful address by human rights lawyer and humanitarian, Emily Schaeffer Omer-Man, was to illustrate this in a most apparent way. The fact is, the agents of the state often standby and do nothing. Sometimes even encourage the violence and are part of it.

Accusing you of extreme Zionism follows your countless attempts at the use of the extreme Zionist attack strategy of screaming anti-Semite, personal attacks (I know I'm not guiltless either) and various means of attempting to stop my comments. The last being I'm in some way spamming by quoting genuine Jewish folk who (to paraphrase Ted Kennedy's eulogy about Robert ) see wrong and try to right it, see suffering and try to heal it, see war and try to stop it. Just who of the Rabbis for Human Rights; JVP Rabbinical Councils; the Rabbis and others who comprise T'ruah; the former soldiers from Breaking the Silence; the countless progressive Jews from here and abroad ( I could go on for ages) you regard as spam, I'm unsure. Your endorsement of many of the posts of the white supremacist in the past is another consideration.

Being Jewish is fighting for justice. Having a community of rabbis out there gives me a way to clarify my vision of human rights. The work that we do as Rabbis is not just serving the Jewish community, we're not here to just serve Jews we're here to be a moral voice for the world

I quote these myraiad of admirable Jewish folk because I know you and others will scream anti-Semite (as you any many have anyway) if I was to do otherwise. And to illustrate there are huge numbers of humanitarian Jewish folk who are very concerned about the aggressive, brutal, oppressive direction the leadership is taking Israel.

You see 'straughnyy', I am concerned that history will show Israel to have been a pariah state and while I'm not concerned about how history records the likes of Netanyahu, Lieberman et al I don't want the countless good folk who speak out, or even just sit quietly , to be seen in that light. And I'd like to show there are countless, and growing, numbers of Jewish folk who are equally concerned about the increasing violence, apartheid and continued illegal annexation and oppression.

Please don't insult the intelligence of the readers by suggesting you bring "balance". Your posts have been consistently pro Israel and often hostile to Palestinians and those who show support for them. Just as mine are consistently pro Palestinian and critical of Israel's leadership and direction.

 

[Fat Yak]

 

[AM]