Opinion Why Can't We Beat Carlton?

[Tiger71]

Is that why they put him up for trade?
And we did beat them before when Bootsma was playing in round 1, and he was very, very ordinary on McGuane that day.

If I remember right, he was shifted to NcGuane that day when Jack was tearing him a new ass.

 

[Bazzar]

If I remember right, he was shifted to NcGuane that day when Jack was tearing him a new ass.

First game im 99% positive he started on McGuane, second game he was moved from Jack onto Vickery.

 

[Groupie_]

Until last year we had a worse list than Carlton. Since the start of 2013, we have looked slightly better on paper. However, we still don't have a player with Judd's ability to consistently take control of games. It was Judd's onslaught, and Hardwick's failure to react, that cost us the final.

Should've got Petterd to rip his block off like Balmey did back in the day

8 weeks out but at least we would've won. The team's shittest player sacrafices himself for the club!

 

[WATIGE]

Just before Christmas I was talking to the Carlton players at a bar in Chapel St. Told them was Richmond supporter etc etc Said they aren't worried about Richmond even if they are eight goals down. Didn't have much of a come back. Michael Jamison is a great bloke, thought Brock McClean was a **** head, the others were pretty good. I was half cut on a staff party bender.

That's probably it.

Confidence, expectation, belief.

Carlton have that over us and it takes time to erode that sense of belief. It's like when a team like Geelong is a few goals down and you know they'll come back... Carlton have that confidence towards us.

Along with what has been said re rucks and mids this is a massive factor. At the moment Carlton "BELIEVE" they can come back and get us while we are always on edge and unsure because we're afraid its going to happen. It is only going to take one game where we get that lead, they launch a comeback only for us to halt it convincingly and we will have them - we have to break the mental advantage.

 

[AJ Green]

I felt ill watching the 4th quarter debacle unfold at the ground in round 1. Gotta get over the mental barrage by beating them convincingly for once.

 

[Tiger_4_Life]

We absolutely shit ourselves as soon as they win it in the middle and boot it long,not blaming our defence but to me it's mostly mental... We go to water as soon as they have a sniff.

No betts will make things a lot easier

 

[RunningBounce]

What's wrong with original post?

Mate, if you don't know, I'm not gunna tell you. Watch a few more games, both Carlton and Richmond.

But, even with my troll sense tingling, I have to add my 5 cents.

I reckon most of the factors have been nailed already. The Cheats have had ruck dominance, self-belief, Judd, too many good small forwards, and last year, better coaching.

Two factors I haven't seen mentioned (sorry if I've missed these):

Jamison flogs Riewoldt every time he plays on him.

Carlton have been lucky once or twice. Brock Maclean would never kick that winning goal from 2012 again. Not on the training track, let alone with opposition. Those missed easy shots for the Tigers in the first half of the EF hopefully won't happen again, and would have buried 'em.

 

[Dr Tigris]

All has been said so far. But that doesn't stop me adding my 5 cents

When they beat us it is the same pattern, win clearnaces (ruck dominance of a jumping tall over a crash and bash type), move it out fast (Judd cutting loose), to speedy runners (against our less speedy runners that haven't got their defensive set up right) and then long kicks to an open forward line (where fast small forwards cause us problems).

As soon as we halve the contests then it is slower and our strength and skill kills them. Easy solution halve teh contests. 1) Get a high jumping ruck (Done) 2) More inside contested winners (Conca not going down, Vlos more experienced) 3) Get fitter to be more able to get in the defensive position (read the trainign thread). Once we learnt o stop the fast slingshot teams we are a top line team. hopefully that is 2014.

 

[NUFC Tiger]

I think at the end of the day, it comes down to experience and belief - both on the ground and in the coaches box.

For whatever reason, whenever we play them a lot of their lesser players seem to have dominant games (McLean, Duigan, Robinson etc) while our own seem to have little impact. Most of our stars seem to not all stand up at the same time and wrestle back momentum when we are on the ropes. Jamison and Henderson both seem to be able to get Riewoldt's number which can dry up the goals.

Ruck dominance is a big area they would get up from - hopefully removing Hampson and adding him as a second ruck will help strengthen us in that regard. Their pacy smalls in Betts, Garlett and Yarran have been reduced in number which should help reduce that as a strength of theirs.

We need to beat Carlton and then do it again to try and break this mental belief they have over our players.

 

[GH213]

Would it be a weird thing to say if i said against carlton have lids playing a close check on judd to try and shut him out of the game ... a bit like when he went to mundy v freo? Dusty cotch and conca/vlas to the attacking from the centre ... just a thought, I'm not great with game plan/ structure stuff ...

 

[juss]

Betts will be a big loss for them against us. I know that Morris has been good on him, but it's one less person to worry about who historically kicks goals against us. He did of course kick 3 crucial goals in the EF.

 

[Drunken Wookie]

New thread idea: 'Round 2, which forward do we sacrifice at the feet of Josh Bootsma?'

 

[HARKER]

I think at the end of the day, it comes down to experience and belief - both on the ground and in the coaches box.

For whatever reason, whenever we play them a lot of their lesser players seem to have dominant games (McLean, Duigan, Robinson etc) while our own seem to have little impact. Most of our stars seem to not all stand up at the same time and wrestle back momentum when we are on the ropes. Jamison and Henderson both seem to be able to get Riewoldt's number which can dry up the goals.
We need to beat Carlton and then do it again to try and break this mental belief they have over our players.

McLean would have won our B&F in 2012 had have he played all games.
Hope your coach doesn't consider these type guys as lesser players and I'm sure if they were better looking or more amiable, people would consider them better.

Carlton has had as good a run with Richmond as Hawthorn has had against Carlton but things change.
Overall though I think our teams are pretty close with both having their particular strengths and their particular weaknesses but we've both got some way to go yet.

 

[theflea]

Spot on Flea, was going to post the same thing. Those two won the final for them, and round 1 last year, Judd got them back into the game.

Personally, I think Hampson, if he can stay fit, will make a massive difference as we will not have a tiring Maric in the ruck at the end of games leading to fade outs and getting blitzed in the middle. Will help big time against another of our bogey sides in North too, when Goldstein always controls the ruck against us.

I also think with more rotations in the midfield and more mature bodies, we will be able to handle Judd and his cohorts in the centre much better than we have.

The thing is, last year we lost twice and should have lost to them a third time really, BUT, in all 3 games, we got out to at least a six goal lead so we are doing something right!!!!! It is either fitness/tiredness towards the end of games or lack of maturity. Reading reports on pre-season training and listening to player interviews, fitness will not be an issue from here on!

Snap mate snap.

 

[Groupie_]

I for one think Carlton are not in a premiership window and never were and now won't be for years. They may have been close to it in 2011 but they sacked the coach. IMO aside from the midfield which is obviously ageing they have nothing. Tigers have so much more upside all over the park and it's only going to get better with most of our key players being young.

I think Richmond's premiership window will open from 2015 and stay open for 2-3 years.

 

[theflea]

We have never recovered from the 82 GF.

If I ever catch Helen D'Amico I will not be responsible for my actions.........

 

[Bojangles17]

The common theme is rucks which naturally contribute to superior clearances. Quite right what has been pointed out is that Maric is nowhere near capable of running out 4q and it has been to our detriment especially so when opposition have a couple of handy rucks as in CBD specialists like warnock. If Hampson can play out his PT ruck role effectively we'll improve no end

 

[coops1980]

Great thread.
I think it is pretty simple in the past 4 years..we are outcoached.

Hardwick has no plan B and as son as a coach makes some moves, he is dumbfounded. How he could lose the same way to the same team twice in 4 weeks is astounding. No swingman, no surprises just stunned when a team comes at us.
Also, Reiwoldt, never has a good day against Jamison...he is his B*tch

 

["The Roar Is Back"]

If I ever catch Helen D'Amico I will not be responsible for my actions.........

Use a rubber or you'll be up for child support .

 

["The Roar Is Back"]

Carlton's outsiders have dominated against us for a long long time , last year they identified Ellis as a quality outsider and targeted him .
IMO we need to have all midfield guns flying and play direct footy , they really are a very ordinary side who have been well drilled on feeding on sides who get to pretty and overuse the footy something we have been guilty of .

 

[Frank Grimes]

Up until this year Carlton has simply been a better side than us. The tread title may as well be "Why do we always lose to Geelong?". We have closed the gap and expect us to start to win game more regularly against them as we are entering our top 4 window and they are approaching the period where they need to rejuvenate their list. At the moment I would say that it's fairly even between our teams with our list slightly better. We will see if there are mental demons in the coming few years. If we are 3rd-5th and we are still losing to them when they're 11~13 then I would concede that they are a monkey on our back.

 

[Stevi_Tigers]

Our players shit them selves when Carlton get a run on and just boot the ball to know one its so frustrating

 

[Rancid_Beasties]

Should've got Petterd to rip his block off like Balmey did back in the day

8 weeks out but at least we would've won. The team's shittest player sacrafices himself for the club!

Absolutely! As far as I am aware no matter what a player does there is no sin bin in the AFL! And if there were, we could always have sent Conca out there - hobbling around with a baseball bat and some brass knuckles

 

[NUFC Tiger]

McLean would have won our B&F in 2012 had have he played all games.
Hope your coach doesn't consider these type guys as lesser players and I'm sure if they were better looking or more amiable, people would consider them better.

Carlton has had as good a run with Richmond as Hawthorn has had against Carlton but things change.
Overall though I think our teams are pretty close with both having their particular strengths and their particular weaknesses but we've both got some way to go yet.

I probably could have worded that better but I meant no slight when I said 'lesser players' - far from it infact. I was more trying to suggest that I wouldn't have considered them among your star players (more like the supporting cast members behind the likes of Judd, Murphy, Gibbs, Simpson, Walker and Kreuzer).

Hampson in round 1 last year from memory was quite good (apart from set shots) but was in and out of the side.

Tuohy is another who comes to mind - he was much improved in 2013 and from memory did a big shut down job on Martin in the second H&A game but previously wouldn't have been considered one of your blue chip players in seasons gone by.

I guess the point I was trying to make is that whenever we play, generally, your second tier of players seem to perform better than our own (which probably reflects why you've had the wood over us so often). Across the board, you have more contributors who have a meaningful impact on the game.

 

[jko'neal]

They have us mentally shot, said it many times before. They could field thier VFL affiliate and still beat us.