Why does everyone pay out on Johnson?

[Tigersman]

Nothing wrong with a bit of 'me' attitude I reckon.
Most of the greats are that way.
I like the idea of a captain who thinks give it to me and i will get it done when the pressure is on.
Ive seen Hird put himself in the guts when the game was tight plenty of times. Voss was that way, Carey, the list goes on...

 

[PLSC]

Because people on this board expect miracles and he ain't no miracle maker.

Looking forward to seeing him play a year or two injury free.

and i think more people expect a better output from a bloke we gave up a top 5 pick for

he won a b&f playing as a tagger and is our captain so some could say we did alright but he hasnt even got close to his form at the crows and is only on the downhill from now on

he played with an injured hand, i doubt healing it will help his lack of pace and shocking footskills

im not expecting miracles but i do expect a bit more from a senior player like him

 

[smokey_58au]

r u serious

Why? Did it sound like I was joking?

newman would be a great leader puts his body on the line everyweek and he can kick straight unlike johnson

Read my post. I said that Newman was just like Johnson without the age and premiership experience. Newman is a hard worker but brings nothing to the table that Johnson doesn't. Are you doubting Johnson's courage - playing the majority of a season with a foot/leg injury (broken bone I believe)? Johnson's delivery dropped off markedly after he was injured (very early in the season), there had never been an issue with it in the past and I would suggest he deserves the benefit of the doubt in the future. Lets see how he shapes up free of injury before taking the knee-jerk approach to team development. It's also my opinion that Newman has reached the zenith of his ability and is now what he will always be - a reliable servant and foot soldier. He may find himself struggling for a regular game in 2-3 years time.

Just as an interesting aside, here is a quote from an interview with Brent Hartigan just before he was delisted:
"Who has had the biggest influence on you as an AFL player? I think I would have to say Kane Johnson, he is really keen to help out and any problems that I may have is willing to help, he has a great work ethic and is a great person in football and in general life to follow".


There is more to being a captain nowadays than just your exploits on the field.

if brown was a me type player why would he come back from a badly broken leg??

Umm, because he is contracted and gets paid a hell of a lot of money to play football? He is an extremely talented footballer who has a propensity to play the game quite selfishly at times. Did at Footscray, does at Richmond. Add to that his extroverted personality and love of being in the public spotlight and it equals someone who would not be suitable to be captain of our young list. Great as part of the leadership group but not as the focal point.

 

[smokey_58au]

and i think more people expect a better output from a bloke we gave up a top 5 pick for

he won a b&f playing as a tagger and is our captain so some could say we did alright but he hasnt even got close to his form at the crows and is only on the downhill from now on

The actual trade was Torney, Wells, Shore & Jericho for Johnson, Schulz & Fleming (converting the picks to the actual players selected). Torney was a fill-up until delisted, Wells is talented but still prone to inconsistency, Shore & Jericho are gone. Here is the service we have received from Johnson:
2003 - 2nd Best & Fairest (2 games missed injury)
2004 - 2nd Best & Fairest (3 games missed injury)
2005 - 3rd Best & Fairest (4 games missed injury) - Captain
2006 - 1st Best & Fairest (3 games missed injury) - Captain
2007 - 9th Best & Fairest (played all season with injury) - Captain

I would suggest that most top 5 picks will fail to provide their respective clubs with this type of return so lets not put unrealistic expectations on him. We traded an unknown (top 5 pick) for a known and in an era (Frawley) that was rife with crappy drafting, this was definitely a good one that went against the tide.

he played with an injured hand, i doubt healing it will help his lack of pace and shocking footskills

Yep, broken hand. Also was reported on a number of occasions as carrying an injury to his foot/heel. Still managed a stack of possessions as a tagger so obviously still has the ability to get where the ball is. Don't have to stay quick as you get older, many good players more than adequately cover it by just playing smarter (with an 'older head'). Give the guy a chance at playing without injury restriction before you condemn him.

im not expecting miracles but i do expect a bit more from a senior player like him

Gee, tough task master. Carrying a huge load of work and responsibility both on and off field and his returns above aren't enough for you. Prepare yourself for many more disappointments in the future.

 

[Madtiger2006]

hes sh.it,

anyone who goes to games live would see his indecision kills our continuity. A classic johnson play: takes the mark, goes back on his mark, lokks for short options sideways first, they ae on but decides to then look further up the ground, sees nothing as any leads have now been cut off, then looks back to the short sideways option which is now closed, gets the whistle to play on and then proceeds to either give a handball to a team mate that is red hot and not moving or gets caught pinged holding the ball. Hopeless, does this a fair bit too...

EXACTLY

 

[smokey_58au]

hes sh.it,

anyone who goes to games live would see his indecision kills our continuity. A classic johnson play: takes the mark, goes back on his mark, lokks for short options sideways first, they ae on but decides to then look further up the ground, sees nothing as any leads have now been cut off, then looks back to the short sideways option which is now closed, gets the whistle to play on and then proceeds to either give a handball to a team mate that is red hot and not moving or gets caught pinged holding the ball. Hopeless, does this a fair bit too...

Could also be a description of a classic Bowden play, I've seen him do it on any number of occasions. Newman is also prone to at times. For someone so arrogant to believe that you need to be live at a game to 'see' these things, maybe you don't 'see' the breakdown in team rules or gameplan that might be the pivotal cause. Maybe you don't 'see' the lead from Richo going straight to a pocket or flank instead of up the middle. Maybe you don't 'see' the short option standing still or the link man failing to time his run. Maybe you don't 'see' the secondary lead going to a designated 'no-go zone'. Maybe you don't 'see' the midfielder dragging his man into a crowded forward line. Maybe you don't 'see' the opposition player peeling off to block Richo (who is our only and sooooooo predictable forward option). Maybe you don't 'see' the midfielder not run into the space created behind/after the leads. Or more likely, maybe you just don't like Johnson and you only 'see' what you want to 'see'.

 

[Madtiger2006]

Could also be a description of a classic Bowden play, I've seen him do it on any number of occasions. Newman is also prone to at times. For someone so arrogant to believe that you need to be live at a game to 'see' these things, maybe you don't 'see' the breakdown in team rules or gameplan that might be the pivotal cause. Maybe you don't 'see' the lead from Richo going straight to a pocket or flank instead of up the middle. Maybe you don't 'see' the short option standing still or the link man failing to time his run. Maybe you don't 'see' the secondary lead going to a designated 'no-go zone'. Maybe you don't 'see' the midfielder dragging his man into a crowded forward line. Maybe you don't 'see' the opposition player peeling off to block Richo (who is our only and sooooooo predictable forward option). Maybe you don't 'see' the midfielder not run into the space created behind/after the leads. Or more likely, maybe you just don't like Johnson and you only 'see' what you want to 'see'.

Bowden and Newman are alot more skillful and confident than Johnson. They have alot more flair and plenty more tricks. You have to be at a game to know the full picture. Tv shows nothing

 

[Rayzorwire]

Johnsn's output in '03 exceeded every year since by a country mile. He outed himself when he remarked (referring to Pat Bowden) that you work harder and try your arse off in the first year at a new club.

THAT is my problem with him in the years since. '04 broke him and he realised he was going to get a game whether he gave a genuine 100% effort or not. He fell into the same rut many senior Richmond onballers have over the years; chasing cheap possessions in the backline and around the boundary; refusing to play direct, productive football; almost always taking the short option; not pushing through the pain barrier; pretending being second to the ball and laying half-hearted tackles makes up for not getting there first; and conceding any matchup where their opponent doesn't take the above options.

I can mostly forgive him for the way too frequent turnovers, it's the mental attitude which is the more frustrating part.

That's why Wallace made him a tagger...he can no longer shirk his workload, he can't pretend getting 20 cheap, useless possessions in useless places is good enough - he is judged solely by how effective his shutdown role has been.

He's played his only genuine football since '03 as a tagger. A coach shouldn't have to play those sort of games to get worthwhile output out of the supposed leader of the club.

 

[Rayzorwire]

Could also be a description of a classic Bowden play, I've seen him do it on any number of occasions. Newman is also prone to at times.

And they all have the same thing in common; they physically can't break lines because they have no pace. If you have no options, then ideally you carry the ball forwards and watch for the options to open up (often because you've forced an opponent to leave his man and shut your run down). All three of these players are forced to shuffle sideways (slowly) or go short (slowly) instead of doing what our younger players (Deledio, Tambling, King, Foley, Edwards, Jackson) can do - break lines and run around opponents.

Unless they have an open paddock to run into, Johnson, Bowden and Newman are all stuck with delivering the ball 50m (at best) forward of where they get it. They are utterly reliant on other players outrunning their opponents all game and creating space for them. Lock down the space around them and 50m in front of them and watch them turn the ball over often as not.

Two of them (Bowden and Newman) are key designated playmakers...bear that in mind when you ponder why we finished last, turned the ball over more than any other club, and why we decided McMahon was a must have trade. He can run.

 

[smasha]

MT has a naked pic of him on his bedside table.

 

[GiveGasTheFlick]

For what it's worth this my opion It's not allways about players haveing pace,it's all about protecting the ball carrier.How many times do our players run beside the player carring the ball( heaps of times).If our players can lay a few more shepards and give the ball carrier more to to deliver the ball properlly down field it will take us a long way.Whats wrong with every player saying to himself i'm going to try and lay 2 shepards a quarter and have there oppisition looking over there shoulder.No player likes getting crunched we just have to toughen up and that starts with our leadership group.

 

[Tiger_Of_Old]

hes sh.it,

anyone who goes to games live would see his indecision kills our continuity. A classic johnson play: takes the mark, goes back on his mark, lokks for short options sideways first, they ae on but decides to then look further up the ground, sees nothing as any leads have now been cut off, then looks back to the short sideways option which is now closed, gets the whistle to play on and then proceeds to either give a handball to a team mate that is red hot and not moving or gets caught pinged holding the ball. Hopeless, does this a fair bit too...

Example C

 

[tony_montana]

Could also be a description of a classic Bowden play, I've seen him do it on any number of occasions. Newman is also prone to at times. For someone so arrogant to believe that you need to be live at a game to 'see' these things, maybe you don't 'see' the breakdown in team rules or gameplan that might be the pivotal cause. Maybe you don't 'see' the lead from Richo going straight to a pocket or flank instead of up the middle. Maybe you don't 'see' the short option standing still or the link man failing to time his run. Maybe you don't 'see' the secondary lead going to a designated 'no-go zone'. Maybe you don't 'see' the midfielder dragging his man into a crowded forward line. Maybe you don't 'see' the opposition player peeling off to block Richo (who is our only and sooooooo predictable forward option). Maybe you don't 'see' the midfielder not run into the space created behind/after the leads. Or more likely, maybe you just don't like Johnson and you only 'see' what you want to 'see'.

nope none of the above tripe u wasted bandwidth on, hes just not up to it. cant blame it on his team mates all the time as you seem to be alluding to, its no coincidence that its him that seems to be the instigator of the stop start crap. (along with Bowden as another poster mentioned, although Bowden has more skill and class than Johnno).

and yes you do need to see the game live to see the full extent of his erroneous plays, duh!

 

[smokey_58au]

nope none of the above tripe u wasted bandwidth on, hes just not up to it. cant blame it on his team mates all the time as you seem to be alluding to, its no coincidence that its him that seems to be the instigator of the stop start crap. (along with Bowden as another poster mentioned, although Bowden has more skill and class than Johnno).

and yes you do need to see the game live to see the full extent of his erroneous plays, duh!

Funny, cause what I wrote is what I see when I attend the games. Maybe I'm not 'seeing' the mistake because I'm not 'seeking' it. Maybe I'm too distracted looking at a forward line with only 1 predictable target and 1 predictable option, or a midfield that is too disinterested, too fragile or too stuffed to link up. I'm not saying he is not guilty of doing it, I just don't subscribe to your theory of total blame and absolving all those around him of any.

 

[tony_montana]

Funny, cause what I wrote is what I see when I attend the games. Maybe I'm not 'seeing' the mistake because I'm not 'seeking' it. Maybe I'm too distracted looking at a forward line with only 1 predictable target and 1 predictable option, or a midfield that is too disinterested, too fragile or too stuffed to link up. I'm not saying he is not guilty of doing it, I just don't subscribe to your theory of total blame and absolving all those around him of any.

I don;t have it in for him , but I do expect more from the senior players and I stand by my comments that our captain is nigh on our biggest culprit when it comes to what I was describing. Of course its not just him and our side is littered with holes and problems that need addressing, but last season I was extrememly dissapointed in the way he went about it. Looked very average and second rate and I dont think that is healthy for the development of our young blokes when the clubs captain looks that way.

 

[smokey_58au]

I don;t have it in for him , but I do expect more from the senior players and I stand by my comments that our captain is nigh on our biggest culprit when it comes to what I was describing. Of course its not just him and our side is littered with holes and problems that need addressing, but last season I was extrememly dissapointed in the way he went about it. Looked very average and second rate and I dont think that is healthy for the development of our young blokes when the clubs captain looks that way.

I'm happy to agree if we can remove the number of significant possible causes. Let him play free(er) of injuries, let the midfield step up (improve), let the forward line become less Richo-centric. If that happens and he is still as prone to taking the stop/start approach then I will join in the chorus for him to move on. Until then, steady as she goes - we are improving under his leadership, his guidance covers many other facets, and at present we have precious few other options.

 

[cormick]

He's done several things over the last 3 years that make me shake my head in disbelief

Like win a B+F and come second in one?
People underrate him so much.
If even 15% of his possesions were clangers, the coaching staff wouldnt be playing him.
But because people see what they want to see, they think, because of his first kick of 2007 p), that he cant kick over a jam tin

 

[cormick]

And they all have the same thing in common; they physically can't break lines because they have no pace. If you have no options, then ideally you carry the ball forwards and watch for the options to open up (often because you've forced an opponent to leave his man and shut your run down). All three of these players are forced to shuffle sideways (slowly) or go short (slowly) instead of doing what our younger players (Deledio, Tambling, King, Foley, Edwards, Jackson) can do - break lines and run around opponents.

Unless they have an open paddock to run into, Johnson, Bowden and Newman are all stuck with delivering the ball 50m (at best) forward of where they get it. They are utterly reliant on other players outrunning their opponents all game and creating space for them. Lock down the space around them and 50m in front of them and watch them turn the ball over often as not.

Two of them (Bowden and Newman) are key designated playmakers...bear that in mind when you ponder why we finished last, turned the ball over more than any other club, and why we decided McMahon was a must have trade. He can run.

Nemwan aint slow

 

[deliberate!!]

now let me see if I can sum this up...

he's slow
a woeful kick...clangers galore
says nothing off the field
totally uninspiring on field
we have a tagger as our captain

Is that enough reasons for you???

send him back to Adelaide

*applause* Nice summing up Terry......You nailed it.
(except, further on, Tony_Montana makes one of the most important points about the down side to Suga.........he stops and breaks up the continuity of our gameplay........the ball can flow to Johnson and he grabs it, stops and props, or stuffs it up, and we lose all momentum in that piece of play in a millisecond)

Suga's a waste of space....and he's actually a hindrance.

 

[Madtiger2006]

*applause* Nice summing up Terry......You nailed it.
(except, further on, Tony_Montana makes one of the most important points about the down side to Suga.........he stops and breaks up the continuity of our gameplay........the ball can flow to Johnson and he grabs it, stops and props, or stuffs it up, and we lose all momentum in that piece of play in a millisecond)

Suga's a waste of space....and he's actually a hindrance.

He sure does. He doesn't just slow down play and prevent us kicking a goal, he actually gives the ball to the opposition and gives them a goal instead

 

[cormick]

*applause* Nice summing up Terry......You nailed it.
(except, further on, Tony_Montana makes one of the most important points about the down side to Suga.........he stops and breaks up the continuity of our gameplay........the ball can flow to Johnson and he grabs it, stops and props, or stuffs it up, and we lose all momentum in that piece of play in a millisecond)

Suga's a waste of space....and he's actually a hindrance.

He sure does. He doesn't just slow down play and prevent us kicking a goal, he actually gives the ball to the opposition and gives them a goal instead

And yet he won the 2006 B+F...which was our best season statistically since 2001

 

[smokey_58au]

Just to inject a bit more material into this interesting debate. One of the main points of contention appears to be Johnson's poor delivery/disposal so I thought I would compare how he stacked up (clanger-wise) against the other 15 captains this season:

Brad Johnson - 62
Jonathan Brown - 61
Brett Kirk - 53
Kane Johnson - 52
Chris Judd - 51
Adam Simpson - 49
Matthew Lloyd - 47
Matthew Pavlich - 46
Nick Reiwoldt - 35 (from 20 games)
Warren Tredrea - 27 (from 17 games)

The rest played 15 games or less so the stats become less meaningful or comparitive.

Further to that, if you break Johnson's down, he had 33 in the first 11 games and only 19 in the second 11. Apply his early season injuries against that and it tells a bit of a story. Johnson played all season, mostly injured, I would suggest mainly because we were already destitute with injuries and he did the 'team' thing. Based on these stats he is no worse than other 'inspiring' leaders and on top of that he plays the most unforgiving, uninspiring, yet critical role of tagger in a team that can only win 3 games and where he receives very little support by way of team mates beating or taking their opponents out of the game.

I reckon you guys are marking him extremely harshly.

 

[cormick]

Just to inject a bit more material into this interesting debate. One of the main points of contention appears to be Johnson's poor delivery/disposal so I thought I would compare how he stacked up (clanger-wise) against the other 15 captains this season:

Brad Johnson - 62
Jonathan Brown - 61
Brett Kirk - 53
Kane Johnson - 52
Chris Judd - 51
Adam Simpson - 49
Matthew Lloyd - 47
Matthew Pavlich - 46
Nick Reiwoldt - 35 (from 20 games)
Warren Tredrea - 27 (from 17 games)

The rest played 15 games or less so the stats become less meaningful or comparitive.

Further to that, if you break Johnson's down, he had 33 in the first 11 games and only 19 in the second 11. Apply his early season injuries against that and it tells a bit of a story. Johnson played all season, mostly injured, I would suggest mainly because we were already destitute with injuries and he did the 'team' thing. Based on these stats he is no worse than other 'inspiring' leaders and on top of that he plays the most unforgiving, uninspiring, yet critical role of tagger in a team that can only win 3 games and where he receives very little support by way of team mates beating or taking their opponents out of the game.

I reckon you guys are marking him extremely harshly.

How did Judd get 51 clangers?
He missed at least three games, possibly more...

 

[smokey_58au]

How did Judd get 51 clangers?
He missed at least three games, possibly more...

Yeah my mistake. The clanger count is correct but he only played 18 games. Even better for Suger hey? Here is Judd's breakdown round by round:

7, 3, 4, 5, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 3, X, X, 3, 1, 3, 2, 1, 3, X, 1, X.

Figures are official AFL stats taken from the Sportal site.

P.S. I didn't include finals.

 

[deliberate!!]

And yet he won the 2006 B+F...which was our best season statistically since 2001

so what are you saying....?
Suga is a barometer of our success....?
BS...
I think a few other players had a hand in us finishing 9th that year.
(Unless he played all the games by himself.....and psst.....wasn't that the year when a majority of supporters thought the B&F would go to anyone besides a 'tagger')

I wouldn't validate Richmond finishing 9th in a season on a dodgy B&F....