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Why haven't the Bulldogs under Bevo finished top 4?

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PerthBoy86

PerthBoy86

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He's been at the helm for a decade, yet the Dogs have amazingly - as we know - never finished in the top 4. Which is amazing because they won a premiership and played in a grand final, the year they finished 5th. They also demolished Port in Adelaide in the prelim. Other than that they've mostly played finals. I don't think a side with such a high ceiling over 10 odd years has never finished top 4 before.

Just wondering what do you mostly attribite that to? The coaching staff, especially Beveridge? Playing list? Bad luck? With another coach could they have been a dynasty? Or is their list overrated? It's likely a combination, but what do you do you feel is the main factor? Why do they also show glimpses but inevitably drop off? According to Champion Data or some other rating they boast 4 of the top 5 players or something.
 
Experimental selections and blind faith in VFL standard players at critical points of the season haven't helped across the journey (McComb, Gardner to name a couple) Our defence last season was fairly solid but more often than not Bevo implements a game plan that relies on midfield dominance with a high press once we move the ball forward. This works against the weaker teams but when the better sides win the ball back they have a paddock of space to rebound and score. Look at what the Crows did on the weekend.

A big brute of a ruckman to win taps and another key defender that wins the majority of one on ones would be a start. We looked our most dangerous in 21 when Martin and English worked as a ruck duo and when Keath was the general down back.
 

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Firstly, this is a really weird season to get a read on. I posted in the top 4 thread, that only once in his Bulldogs tenure, has Bevo won more games vs top 8 teams, than he had lost. And that was back in 2015. We had broken even in a couple of years, but had losing records in the other few. Funny enough, the Dogs are on track to have their worst season head to head vs top 8 teams results wise, yet at the same time seem to be having their most competitive season vs top 8 teams in years as well. Most of the games were shoot outs that could have gone either way. Hawks whole game, Freo and Lions ran over them in the second half, were the bad ones. Games vs Cats, Crows, Suns were lost in bad second quarters. Though Crows were a class above all game, and Dogs were flattered on the scoreboard.

I feel like we have always been a couple of steps behind where the game is at, style wise since 2016. Game became more run and gun, and the Dogs have for the most part been too slow to catch up. And their teams have often been too one paced, especially in the middle. Plus the lack of respect for a defensive minded game style mentality, it all seems to be about full on attack.

The team has often scored goals well for the most part over the years, but there were periods over a few years, and also games vs good teams where we did not play a functional forward line. It was all clogged up and our midfielders would just bomb it long and high to whichever tall forward we had. And hoped that they would somehow win a 1 on 3 marking contest, or that it will spill to non existent crumbers. The leagues best interceptors would stat pad any time they played the Bulldogs. There have been so many games where the Dogs had a crazy 60-70 entries, 20 odd more than their opponents, but couldn't even kick 10 goals for the game and lost by a few. Pressure and tackling numbers could be improved, and another small who can hit the scoreboard consistently is probably needed.

The midfield has always been their strength, especially the inside and stoppage game. But for the most part, lacked damaging outside players who can run and cover both ways to compliment them. We are too reliant on keeping on top in the middle all the time, and for even the best teams in the league, that is not possible. I think the Dogs have finally addressed lack of leg speed, outside players, and have improved the forward line function the past two seasons, though it took them a few years too long. Though we have moved away from Davidson and Williams on the wings this year who were doing well, to put two inside types out there in Sanders and Freijah in the last couple of games. No idea why we changed it there.

Ruck has been decent. Never the best, but no where near the worst either. Haven't really dominated the hit outs, but at least we have ruck impact around the ground compared to some rucks who get 50 hit outs, and then lumber around like a slow dead weight, that its like playing 21 vs 22.

Then you have defence. I think out of a decade, defensive structure has been solid for only about 3 of those years, and last year the Dogs were the best in the league for points against. But usually the year after, it disappears and the Dogs revert to being middle of the pack to bottom end defensively. Really last season just papered over the cracks, where the Dogs were not that good in one on one win rate, and more so, teams were scoring at too high a rate per inside 50. If the midfield and forward line couldn't slow other teams down, the defence was in trouble. And that is what is happening this year.

Structure wise, as someone in one of our threads pointed out, our style seems based around all out attack and cheating forward. Which creates two sets of problems, a highly congested forward line for the most part, and the last line defenders playing in front of their man, so when the ball turns over, it is near game over. As teams just chip it over our heads from one end to the other wise ease.

Our best small lockdown defender, and best tall lockdown defender have both hit the wall this season, so we have to play Lobb and JOD as man on man types, when they are better suited as interceptors. And our small running backs have been poor for most of the year, aside from Dale, with constant turnovers coming out of the defensive 50, and none of our smaller defenders seem to be elite at the defensive stuff. And we have no one coming through outside of Busslinger, who has his own question marks.

I also think our players are not consistent enough in terms of positioning defensively, whether its just a game IQ thing, or coaching instruction, who knows. The amount of times I see someone 10m off their man, when the ball was at a stoppage situation up the ground (meaning a quick turnover is no excuse, they had all the time in the world to locate and get to their man), really does my head in. It's not even that hard to man up, its a basic common sense contcept.

The Dogs midfield will still be strong in the years ahead, and the forward line even more so. But defense is a major worry. There are no solid lock down types on the market, and if they were, they cost much in draft capital. And drafting them, and reaching a good level takes time too. So the imbalance may last awhile. The List Management team are at fault for neglecting defenders in the draft, and relying on trading for slow guys on their last legs at other teams as gap fills.

One thing I have noticed over the years, aside from lack of pace. Is that we have never really been one of those teams that move the ball around fast with precise kicking, that makes it hard for teams to defend. We have always looked undersized around the field, as we let opponents break too many tackles, we cannot stick them, we get shoved aside in marking constests at the hips too easily. Teams more often than not outmarked us, which meant they controlled the tempo of the game more as well. Whether it is a drafting or player development issue, who knows. But the fact we have gone a decade and never once looked like the profile of a strong, physically imposing team that regular top four teams look like (2015-2016 aside). We always looked likes boys vs men when it came to playing a team like Geelong. Also we have too many players who just go missing when the heat is on.

Never really seen much evolution in the game style. Good coaches are not stubborn, and learn and adapt as the game goes. I think we stick to our guns way to much, even when it is obviously things are broken. We went from a team that opposition coaches found hard to coach against/Bevo rated the best coach in his first couple of years. To being very predictable since then.

Prety much, coaching, game style, players, list managment, all could have fingers pointed at them.

*Outdated game style, stubborness to admit things need tweaking. "We are close". Fans have heard it yearly for ages. We don't want close, we want DO.
*Too much attack, and lack of respect for defense. I mean scoring well vs good teams is good, but useless if you let them score more all the time. Defence wins finals and makes you top four. Never been able build a team solid defensively for a long period.
*List Management not respecting certain positions, or addressing needs too late. Defenders, Wingers esepcially was ignore for years. We seemed to draft too many inside mids and halfbacks, and had them playing in other roles to fill gaps. Also our ability to identify good small forwards has seen too many misses and not enough hits. Also players who peform well in finals like pressure should be a requirement too.
*No quality A grade DEFENDERS on the list. We haven't developed our own since the Lake and Morris years. (Rebounding types been a strength though)
*Players being lazy at times, and making poor decisions with the ball. Everyone makes mistakes, even the best. But routinely making the same inexusable ones, or not applying yourself to a contest is not good.
*Fitness staff not developing us into strong bodied players (you want to be careful about losing leg speed and agility). But some of our taller guys still look like twigs after years in the system. Then you got the Hawkins and Hogans that just look like they lived in a gym.
*The same problems as every year never addressed. Poor tackling, lack of physicality and marking around the ground. Defence and the ability to beat the best teams.

Though I do give credit as well, as we have future proofed the midfield a bit, finally addressed the lack of pace, addressed wing, forward line function has been much improved, and have built a formidable forward line. Plus we have been competitive in most games vs top 8 teams despite the results. But it just constantly feels like, that when we finally address one problem, another glaring one takes its place, and we are always a step behind the best. This year it is defensive structure, lack of defenders good at contests, and a drop off in our rebounding damage. We need to try and keep ahead for once.
 
Last edited:
_Cerberus_ said:
Firstly, this is a really weird season to get a read on. I posted in the top 4 thread, that only once in his Bulldogs tenure, has Bevo won more games vs top 8 teams, than he had lost. And that was back in 2015. We had broken even in a couple of years, but had losing records in the other few. Funny enough, the Dogs are on track to have their worst season head to head vs top 8 teams results wise, yet at the same time seem to be having their most competitive season vs top 8 teams in years as well. Most of the games were shoot outs that could have gone either way. Hawks whole game, Freo and Lions ran over them in the second half, were the bad ones. Games vs Cats, Crows, Suns were lost in bad second quarters. Though Crows were a class above all game, and Dogs were flattered on the scoreboard.

I feel like we have always been a couple of steps behind where the game is at, style wise since 2016. Game became more run and gun, and the Dogs have for the most part been too slow to catch up. And their teams have often been too one paced, especially in the middle. Plus the lack of respect for a defensive minded game style mentality, it all seems to be about full on attack.

The team has often scored goals well for the most part over the years, but there were periods over a few years, and also games vs good teams where we did not play a functional forward line. It was all clogged up and our midfielders would just bomb it long and high to whichever tall forward we had. And hoped that they would somehow win a 1 on 3 marking contest, or that it will spill to non existent crumbers. The leagues best interceptors would stat pad any time they played the Bulldogs. There have been so many games where the Dogs had a crazy 60-70 entries, 20 odd more than their opponents, but couldn't even kick 10 goals for the game and lost by a few. Pressure and tackling numbers could be improved, and another small who can hit the scoreboard consistently is probably needed.

The midfield has always been their strength, especially the inside and stoppage game. But for the most part, lacked damaging outside players who can run and cover both ways to compliment them. We are too reliant on keeping on top in the middle all the time, and for even the best teams in the league, that is not possible. I think the Dogs have finally addressed lack of leg speed, outside players, and have improved the forward line function the past two seasons, though it took them a few years too long. Though we have moved away from Davidson and Williams on the wings this year who were doing well, to put two inside types out there in Sanders and Freijah in the last couple of games. No idea why we changed it there.

Ruck has been decent. Never the best, but no where near the worst either. Haven't really dominated the hit outs, but at least we have ruck impact around the ground compared to some rucks who get 50 hit outs, and then lumber around like a slow dead weight, that its like playing 21 vs 22.

Then you have defence. I think out of a decade, defensive structure has been solid for only about 3 of those years, and last year the Dogs were the best in the league for points against. But usually the year after, it disappears and the Dogs revert to being middle of the pack to bottom end defensively. Really last season just papered over the cracks, where the Dogs were not that good in one on one win rate, and more so, teams were scoring at too high a rate per inside 50. If the midfield and forward line couldn't slow other teams down, the defence was in trouble. And that is what is happening this year.

Structure wise, as someone in one of our threads pointed out, our style seems based around all out attack and cheating forward. Which creates two sets of problems, a highly congested forward line for the most part, and the last line defenders playing in front of their man, so when the ball turns over, it is near game over. As teams just chip it over our heads from one end to the other wise ease.

Our best small lockdown defender, and best tall lockdown defender have both hit the wall this season, so we have to play Lobb and JOD as man on man types, when they are better suited as interceptors. And our small running backs have been poor for most of the year, aside from Dale, with constant turnovers coming out of the defensive 50, and none of our smaller defenders seem to be elite at the defensive stuff. And we have no one coming through outside of Busslinger, who has his own question marks.

I also think our players are not consistent enough in terms of positioning defensively, whether its just a game IQ thing, or coaching instruction, who knows. The amount of times I see someone 10m off their man, when the ball was at a stoppage situation up the ground (meaning a quick turnover is no excuse, they had all the time in the world to locate and get to their man), really does my head in. It's not even that hard to man up, its a basic common sense contcept.

The Dogs midfield will still be strong in the years ahead, and the forward line even more so. But defense is a major worry. There are no solid lock down types on the market, and if they were, they cost much in draft capital. And drafting them, and reaching a good level takes time too. So the imbalance may last awhile. The List Management team are at fault for neglecting defenders in the draft, and relying on trading for slow guys on their last legs at other teams as gap fills.

One thing I have noticed over the years, aside from lack of pace. Is that we have never really been one of those teams that move the ball around fast with precise kicking, that makes it hard for teams to defend. We have always looked undersized around the field, as we let opponents break too many tackles, we cannot stick them, we get shoved aside in marking constests at the hips too easily. Teams more often than not outmarked us, which meant they controlled the tempo of the game more as well. Whether it is a drafting or player development issue, who knows. But the fact we have gone a decade and never once looked like the profile of a strong, physically imposing team that regular top four teams look like (2015-2016 aside). We always looked likes boys vs men when it came to playing a team like Geelong. Also we have too many players who just go missing when the heat is on.

Never really seen much evolution in the game style. Good coaches are not stubborn, and learn and adapt as the game goes. I think we stick to our guns way to much, even when it is obviously things are broken. We went from a team that opposition coaches found hard to coach against/Bevo rated the best coach in his first couple of years. To being very predictable since then.

Prety much, coaching, game style, players, list managment, all could have fingers pointed at them.

*Outdated game style, stubborness to admit things need tweaking. "We are close". Fans have heard it yearly for ages. We don't want close, we want DO.
*Too much attack, and lack of respect for defense. I mean scoring well vs good teams is good, but useless if you let them score more all the time. Defence wins finals and makes you top four. Never been able build a team solid defensively for a long period.
*List Management not respecting certain positions, or addressing needs too late. Defenders, Wingers esepcially was ignore for years. We seemed to draft too many inside mids and halfbacks, and had them playing in other roles to fill gaps. Also our ability to identify good small forwards has seen too many misses and not enough hits. Also players who peform well in finals like pressure should be a requirement too.
*No quality A grade DEFENDERS on the list. We haven't developed our own since the Lake and Morris years. (Rebounding types been a strength though)
*Players being lazy at times, and making poor decisions with the ball. Everyone makes mistakes, even the best. But routinely making the same inexusable ones, or not applying yourself to a contest is not good.
*Fitness staff not developing us into strong bodied players (you want to be careful about losing leg speed and agility). But some of our taller guys still look like twigs after years in the system. Then you got the Hawkins and Hogans that just look like they lived in a gym.
*The same problems as every year never addressed. Poor tackling, lack of physicality and marking around the ground. Defence and the ability to beat the best teams.

Though I do give credit as well, as we have future proofed the midfield a bit, finally addressed the lack of pace, addressed wing, forward line function has been much improved, and have built a formidable forward line. Plus we have been competitive in most games vs top 8 teams despite the results. But it just constantly feels like, that when we finally address one problem, another glaring one takes its place, and we are always a step behind the best. This year it is defensive structure, lack of defenders good at contests, and a drop off in our rebounding damage. We need to try and keep ahead for once.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the exhaustive and detailed summary. Definitely a great insight from a supporter (and better than many media experts I should say).

Yeah, that is odd. Reminds me of us this year: more competitive overall than the previous 3 years, yet we only have 1 win to show for it. We're often in it at 3 quarter time then get blown away.

Yeah I think I've observed most of those things watching the Dogs. I usually pay more attention to them as they're my 'Melbourne team'. It almost feels you're a bit unbalanced with your forward line - too forward heavy and too light in defence, which is stating the obvious. It does seem you often have TOO many options up forward (a comment I made about the Hawk's backline at current), EVEN with the likes of Weightman and JUH out. You do have dangerous mids who can kick a few quick, obviously Bont, Richards, Dale, Treloar at times, even Libba when he bobs up. I've been very impressed with young Davidson on the whole, gets into everything.

Yeah, the overriding feeling watch the Dogs is they look like magic when things go their way, but they aren't as good doing the basic, unsexy things, which is why they struggle against higher ranked sides with more solid defences, who play more man on man etc. They do need to toughen up, despite having some contested beasts, they need a better setup imo.

It's funny because they look like one of the fastest ball movement sides on the comp. I honestly think that Bevo is too stubborn, and if he isn't going to make big changes now he never will. I only hope the list is still strong while the likes of Libba and Bont are in the side, but on the bright side I think you've got some of the best developing prospects in the league. The 'window' if you like, should be open for the next 5-6 years at least if things go as predicted. Need to finish top 4 next year.
 
RedWhite4Ever said:
Because there is no incentive to finish top 4 anymore, with the exception to get a home final. The pre-finals bye has flipped the whole finals structure on its head, meaning more upsets in finals and more teams that finish 5-8th have the opportunity to play in a prelim or grand final.
Click to expand...
I doubt they plan to finish 5-8, trying to repeat 2016 or something, and of course there is an incentive. Since 2016 when the pre-finals bye came in still only 2 sides have won from outside top 4. It certainly does make it a bit more likely than before, or less unlikely I should say.
 
PerthBoy86 said:
Thanks for the exhaustive and detailed summary. Definitely a great insight from a supporter (and better than many media experts I should say).

Yeah, that is odd. Reminds me of us this year: more competitive overall than the previous 3 years, yet we only have 1 win to show for it. We're often in it at 3 quarter time then get blown away.

Yeah I think I've observed most of those things watching the Dogs. I usually pay more attention to them as they're my 'Melbourne team'. It almost feels you're a bit unbalanced with your forward line - too forward heavy and too light in defence, which is stating the obvious. It does seem you often have TOO many options up forward (a comment I made about the Hawk's backline at current), EVEN with the likes of Weightman and JUH out. You do have dangerous mids who can kick a few quick, obviously Bont, Richards, Dale, Treloar at times, even Libba when he bobs up. I've been very impressed with young Davidson on the whole, gets into everything.

Yeah, the overriding feeling watch the Dogs is they look like magic when things go their way, but they aren't as good doing the basic, unsexy things, which is why they struggle against higher ranked sides with more solid defences, who play more man on man etc. They do need to toughen up, despite having some contested beasts, they need a better setup imo.

It's funny because they look like one of the fastest ball movement sides on the comp. I honestly think that Bevo is too stubborn, and if he isn't going to make big changes now he never will. I only hope the list is still strong while the likes of Libba and Bont are in the side, but on the bright side I think you've got some of the best developing prospects in the league. The 'window' if you like, should be open for the next 5-6 years at least if things go as predicted. Need to finish top 4 next year.
Click to expand...

We press too high and play too aggressively which means our turnovers in any part of the ground cost us dearly. I think we play this way because the coaches know our backline can't handle repeated entries so they go all out on attack and hope for the best. When it works it looks great but when it doesn't it's frustrating as we'll often win clearances and f50 entries but lose on the scoreboard.

If you go watch any 'kayo mini' in a Bulldogs loss you'll see the majority of our goals are in a crowded forward line relying on contested grabs or a goal from a f50/centre stoppage and most of the oppositions are in an open forwardline after a turnover or straight from centre clearance stoppage.

It's the way we set up the ground. I think the coaches know the defence is no good so play all out attack.
 

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PerthBoy86 said:
I doubt they plan to finish 5-8, trying to repeat 2016 or something, and of course there is an incentive. Since 2016 when the pre-finals bye came in still only 2 sides have won from outside top 4. It certainly does make it a bit more likely than before, or less unlikely I should say.
Click to expand...
GWS made the Grand Final in 2019 after finishing 6th.

The Bulldogs made the Grand Final in 2021 after finishing 5th. (Albeit, a skewered season due to covid).

Brisbane obviously last year.

I haven’t had a chance to have a proper look but I’m sure that a few sides who didn’t finish in the top 4 made the Prelim since 2016.
 
Last edited:
RedWhite4Ever said:
GWS made the Grand Final in 2019 after finishing 6th.

The Bulldogs made the Grand Final in 2021 after finishing 5th. (Albeit, a skewered season due to covid).

Brisbane obviously last year.

I haven’t had a chance to have a proper look but I’m sure that a few sides who didn’t finish in the top 4 made the Prelim since 2016.
Click to expand...
Bevo is playing 4D chess, knowing he can just produce a 3rd run to a GF from outside the top 4.

Dogs supporters need to relax. Why get more H&A wins than you need?

Compare this to the fraudulent Eade, who loved finishing top 4 with the Dogs, but refused to take them to a GF!
 
Rotayjay said:
Because Beveridge has never had the best list (though you can argue he was close in 2021) and his coaching style has never been conducive to consistency. He's less of a McRae or Longmire and more of a Malcolm Blight, a maverick.
Click to expand...

Blight was a brilliant coach who reached five grand finals in nine seasons with two different clubs.

Beveridge couldn’t carry his bags.
 
Because he's been working with Alex Keath, Ryan Gardner, Joel Hamling, Fletcher Roberts, Rory Lobb, James O'Donnell & a semi retired Liam Jones as his KPDs.

I actually think Bevo is a pretty good coach.

The top end of his midfield has been stacked and he's had some very good players in the F50 but, let's be honest, he's never had the talent to build anything close to an elite defence and without that it's basically impossible to be a top end team in the AFL.
 

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Bunk Moreland said:


I must admit, Cornes continues to make a really strong case that Beveridge sucks as a coach.

It’s really very simple, they put together that 3-4 weeks in 2016 and scooped a flag.

If it wasn’t for that 3-4 weeks he’d have been gone as a coach years ago.
Click to expand...

What case did Cornes make that was strong? Go through our 22 that played against Adelaide, you'll find at least 12 players that wouldn't be getting a game in any of the top 4 sides - most because they're very inexperienced (we had 2 more players with less than 100 games than any other top 8 side last week).

Also - your comments around 2016 are a bit weird. We won 15 games that year and beat every other team in the competition except for Geelong. For context, the top 4 last year had two teams in it that won as many games.
 
The 4th Horseman said:
Experimental selections and blind faith in VFL standard players at critical points of the season haven't helped across the journey (McComb, Gardner to name a couple) Our defence last season was fairly solid but more often than not Bevo implements a game plan that relies on midfield dominance with a high press once we move the ball forward. This works against the weaker teams but when the better sides win the ball back they have a paddock of space to rebound and score. Look at what the Crows did on the weekend.

A big brute of a ruckman to win taps and another key defender that wins the majority of one on ones would be a start. We looked our most dangerous in 21 when Martin and English worked as a ruck duo and when Keath was the general down back.
Click to expand...
I've said this before but I never understood why you guys didn't turn English into a Blicavs-style tall midfielder. Let him use his height and athleticism to maximum advantage, while not exposing what some see as his lack of true ruckman physicality.
 
Bunk Moreland said:


I must admit, Cornes continues to make a really strong case that Beveridge sucks as a coach.

It’s really very simple, they put together that 3-4 weeks in 2016 and scooped a flag.

If it wasn’t for that 3-4 weeks he’d have been gone as a coach years ago.
Click to expand...


I would like to see your best 22 Bulldogs from the best list in the AFL.

Same with other neutrals that think so.

It should look obvious to anyone who seen games that it isn’t anywhere near
 
Last edited:
Number of issues
-unable to build a solid seasoned defence (every year it’s chop and change avg defenders)
-unable to win more then 3/4 games in a row without a loss
-our record vs top 8 since 2015 has been awful
 
RedWhite4Ever said:
GWS made the Grand Final in 2019 after finishing 6th.

The Bulldogs made the Grand Final in 2021 after finishing 5th. (Albeit, a skewered season due to covid).

Brisbane obviously last year.

I haven’t had a chance to have a proper look but I’m sure that a few sides who didn’t finish in the top 4 made the Prelim since 2016.
Click to expand...
Well in 2014, there was 2 sides that made top 4 and went out in straight sets.

Geelong was one of them and sadly Freo was the other .
 

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Why haven't the Bulldogs under Bevo finished top 4?

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