News Workhorse (Priddis) Improves Efficiency

[The Falcon Strike]

Its not all about stats, its about influence on the result.

Sam Mitchell is a much better player than Matt Priddis because he influences the result more, because he plays inside and outside and because he hurts teams with his disposal going forward. He has more vision and creativity in his left butt cheek than Priddis...

You talk about influencing results and getting forward and hurting - Mitchell had 3 goal assists and kicked 5 goals last year. 8 times his possessions lead directly to goals last year - stunning hurt factor.

He's never kicked more than 7 goals in a year and kicked 35 goals in 180. That would be the antithesis to hurt factor.

 

[sTeeL]

I have also quite clearly stated several times E87 that you casually skip over is that it is not Priddis job to do the damaging. He is there to shovel it out to those who do, and give them more space to work their magic.

What I am also saying is that Priddis has also learnt how to be damaging himself and while hes not Judd or even close he has put it lace out to several forwards this year, and thought his way through a situation *MOST* players just handball at first chance of a colour that looks like their teams jumper. We aren't jumping up and down over a 30m kick or a 15m handball but that he uses his brain more than anyone in our team and thinks his way through situations.

 

[Rids]

You talk about influencing results and getting forward and hurting - Mitchell had 3 goal assists and kicked 5 goals last year. 8 times his possessions lead directly to goals last year - stunning hurt factor.

He's never kicked more than 7 goals in a year and kicked 35 goals in 180. That would be the antithesis to hurt factor.

Yes but Falcon Strike, you can't criticise Mitchell on that basis - the guy is a clearance machine, how many times did he win the clearance that eventually set up the goal even if not credited with a goal assist. Oh wait ...

 

[Brave Sir Robin]

I can't be bothered going back to find out how this turned into a Matt Priddis vs Sam Mitchell thread, but as much as I like Priddis and rate his work in our side, if it's a choice between him and Sam Mitchell I'm taking Mitchell.

All the stats, all the personal prejudice aside, that's just my opinion.

 

[Rids]

I mean one of the joke stats thrown out by Rids earlier was that Priddis' stats against are great and that he is therefore a good defensive player (or better than Mitchell) - thats just a croc unless you are seriously in some sort of altered state of reality... .

Do you have a better measure for defensive capabilities from a midfield perspective? Whilst I admit Priddis' possessions/goals against stats are pumped up by the fact he has often over the last two years had taggers/defensive minded players assigned to him - even when playing head-to-head against an attacking opponent, they doesn't seem to get a lot of the ball (Priddis' tackling stats in congestion are probably a positive contributor to this).

Go and ask a Freo fan that watches Pav's opponent tear up the midfield every week whether having a midfielder who can at least minimise the influence of his direct opponent is important.

Its not all about stats, its about influence on the result.

Agree completely - and this is why the CD ranking points that Damon quoted are of more use to your normal how many posessions/DT crap. CD ranking points were actually created (and are updated each year based on differing trends) based on what stats influence a result. They are designed to heavily weight towards the more influential stats (i.e. ineffective disposals get nothing, clangers get negative, long kicks to advantage, goals and goal assists are highest rating etc).

The fact that Priddis is consistently improving his ranking points is directly indicative of improved output in terms of disposal efficiency and hurt factor. The midfielders this year with a better rating average than Priddis are (in order) Swan, Mundy, Boyd and Pendlebury with Ablett, Watson (would be higher if not for getting injured last game) and Bartel just below. I don't think you would get too many arguments that the scoring system works if you consider that listing as the 7 most influential midfielders this season ... so why would you argue about Priddis as the 8th in that group?

 

[Eagle87]

Agree completely - and this is why the CD ranking points that Damon quoted are of more use to your normal how many posessions/DT crap. CD ranking points were actually created (and are updated each year based on differing trends) based on what stats influence a result. They are designed to heavily weight towards the more influential stats (i.e. ineffective disposals get nothing, clangers get negative, long kicks to advantage, goals and goal assists are highest rating etc).

The fact that Priddis is consistently improving his ranking points is directly indicative of improved output in terms of disposal efficiency and hurt factor. The midfielders this year with a better rating average than Priddis are (in order) Swan, Mundy, Boyd and Pendlebury with Ablett, Watson (would be higher if not for getting injured last game) and Bartel just below. I don't think you would get too many arguments that the scoring system works if you consider that listing as the 7 most influential midfielders this season ... so why would you argue about Priddis as the 8th in that group?

I've never agreed with CD rankings points as they tend to still reward quantity over quality. Its the nature of ANY stat based formula. Sure, one often finds that quantity and quality sometimes intersect but its hardly always definitive.

Priddis has been good in 2 games this year and got (from memory) 19 of his 20 coaches votes in those games. One of those games was Sunday where he was inarguably less influential than 2 Freo mids and Steel even argued that S Selwood was our best inside mid. He clearly had less influence on the result than NN (especially given NN's opponent).

But if you check his CD numbers in the other 5 games where he varied between poor and ok he still got good numbers ... its a system that rewards a guy for getting a 2m handball to a teammate who then does all the work, even though the 2m handball served no purpose, slowed us down and missed 3 better options downfield. Priddis no doubt leads the league in such handballs.

He remains a player who gets it a lot and is, at best, an ok conveyance with it. He should come on as a back up to the real game winners (like Kerr) as a rotation mid if we want to win flags ...

I mean the arguments that he is a super duper player based on stats, however calculated simply proves the point that stats are full of shit.

Anyone got his CD score for that 45 possession game against Hawthorn in 2008? Genuinely interested... I mean assuming it shows a poor result based on how bad he really was that game then my faith will start to be restored in their system ...

 

[lusheslewis]

Anyone got his CD score for that 45 possession game against Hawthorn in 2008? Genuinely interested... I mean assuming it shows a poor result based on how bad he really was that game then my faith will start to be restored in their system ...

138

His third highest score for that year.

 

[The Dodger]

As a side note I find it interesting in comparing Priddis to other main mids if you take into account the quality of ruckmen that Priddis has served under. Just in comparison Mitchell has served his time mostly under Taylor & Renouf.

When looking at Priddis' damage factor think about this; when Kerr was killing Essendon before they moved Hocking onto Kerr (after he was on Priddis) to quell his influence, why did they not tag Priddis after that if he is a player capable of significant damage?

Why did Sydney tag Kerr (in his second game back from a long lay off with injury) and Shuey (a guy who was playing his 9th game?), but did not feel the need to tag Priddis?
I ask these because I think judging the way the opposition treats him is a good indicator of how damaging/worrying he is to the opposition as a player. Looking at the way they do, they will sit on him at stoppages but if he is not dominating that then well don't worry about him.

 

[Eagle87]

138

His third highest score for that year.

So the game in which Priddis was ridiculed widely as the worst high possession game anyone could remember, when Hawthorn let Kerr & Priddis run free (Kerr got 40 possies and 2 Brownlow votes in a side that lost by 10 goals because he was actually good) resulted in Priddis getting a score of 138 which is 20 above his average for this year?

So in one of the more laughable performances of his career he was "outstanding" per CD ratings?

Lies, damn lies and statistics ....

 

[The Falcon Strike]

Still interested to hear more about Mitchell's great hurt factor with 35 goals in 180 games.

Reckon a lot of mitchell's stats are padded as well running around half back.

 

[Eagle87]

Still interested to hear more about Mitchell's great hurt factor with 35 goals in 180 games.

Reckon a lot of mitchell's stats are padded as well running around half back.

Do you watch much footy or just read stats?

I mean you have previously suggested you don't have Foxtel and have better things to do than watch footy all weekend, so perhaps you really don't know what Mitchell does?

Mitchells use of the ball off half back or through the middle is creative and he can hit targets, he also chooses the attacking or creative option regularly.

Next you'll be telling me that Heath Shaw has no hurt factor .... and yes, I get he plays back half, the point being that you can hurt teams without it ending directly on the scoreboard... we wouldn't want Priddis at half back "padding his stats" because his ball use isn't good enough, his running is poor and he is an average decision maker, especially in space - similarly he is a poor tackler in space ...

There isn't a team out there who would take Priddis over Mitchell on football ability ...

 

[Damon_3388]

Just in comparison Mitchell has served his time mostly under Taylor & Renouf.

What about Robert Campbell (2002-2009), Peter Everitt (2003-2006) and Shaun Rehn (2002)? They've all been on Hawthorn's list at the same time as Mitchell, and were all better ruckman than Taylor or Renouf.

 

[Jimmy_the_Gent]

Why did Sydney tag Kerr (in his second game back from a long lay off with injury) and Shuey (a guy who was playing his 9th game?), but did not feel the need to tag Priddis?

I don't have an opinion one way or another on the Priddis debate (well, I do, but I don't want to get into it) but there are 2 reasons why Shuey and Kerr would get tagged before Priddis.

1. Guys who play "inside" and win contested possessions are harder to tag out of it. It's a lot easier to tag the guys who receive the ball from the clearance. Obvious stuff.

2. Coaches take into account how much a tag affects a player. I would suggest Kerr has been quite bad at dealing with a tag, while Priddis tends to do the same regardless of being tagged or not. As a result, teams get more value by tagging Kerr.

 

[The Falcon Strike]

There isn't a team out there who would take Priddis over Mitchell on football ability ...

Has nothing to do with Priddis - you said Mitchell hurts going forward - he doesn't.

I reckon the guy is a stat padder who doesn't hurt the opposition much at all. I've watched a lot of him and that doesn't change. He's also relatively easy to tag out of a game.

Mitchell's doesn't have a penetrating kick by any stretch. It is neat looking - but that's about it.

Shaw is erroneous because he is a defender - and he still averages more goals a game than Mitchell.

 

[Eagle87]

Has nothing to do with Priddis - you said Mitchell hurts going forward - he doesn't.

I reckon the guy is a stat padder who doesn't hurt the opposition much at all. I've watched a lot of him and that doesn't change. He's also relatively easy to tag out of a game.

Mitchell's doesn't have a penetrating kick by any stretch. It is neat looking - but that's about it.

Shaw is erroneous because he is a defender - and he still averages more goals a game than Mitchell.

Mitchell does hurt more going forward because he is a neat kick. He also possesses vision.

Your personal view on Mitchell as a stat padder who doesnt hurt teams is noted. Fair enough.

I note you dont dispute that he would be taken by clubs before Priddis. Which seems remarkable given your views on their relative attributes. Perhaps your views are just flawed.

 

[Eagle87]

I don't have an opinion one way or another on the Priddis debate (well, I do, but I don't want to get into it) but there are 2 reasons why Shuey and Kerr would get tagged before Priddis.

1. Guys who play "inside" and win contested possessions are harder to tag out of it. It's a lot easier to tag the guys who receive the ball from the clearance. Obvious stuff.

Kerr was our inside mid in the Cousins, Judd, Kerr midfield. He was shifted "outside" (the judd role) to accommodate Priddis - we can debate the wisdom of that if you'd like.

2. Coaches take into account how much a tag affects a player. I would suggest Kerr has been quite bad at dealing with a tag, while Priddis tends to do the same regardless of being tagged or not. As a result, teams get more value by tagging Kerr.

Alternatively, Kerr and Shuey will cut you to bits if left to their own devices ... "cut you to bits" and "Priddis" are mutually exclusive terms ...

 

[The Falcon Strike]

Mitchell does hurt more going forward because he is a neat kick. He also possesses vision.

Your personal view on Mitchell as a stat padder who doesnt hurt teams is noted. Fair enough.

I note you dont dispute that he would be taken by clubs before Priddis. Which seems remarkable given your views on their relative attributes. Perhaps your views are just flawed.

Mitchell's career is comfortably ahead of Priddis.

What are my views on their relative attributes? please regale me?

I believe the only comparison i made was that Mitchell had a better non-preferred foot.

 

[Rids]

Kerr was our inside mid in the Cousins, Judd, Kerr midfield. He was shifted "outside" (the judd role) to accommodate Priddis - we can debate the wisdom of that if you'd like.

I'm sorry? When did Kerr move to an outside mid? For someone who likes to criticise others for not watching much footy I would suggest you are not watching much of your own side if you think for even a moment that Kerr is an outside mid - he certainly isn't getting many of his touches from handball receives! Are you implying that sides only have one "inside" mid? If so - wow, just wow.

 

[Eagle87]

I'm sorry? When did Kerr move to an outside mid? For someone who likes to criticise others for not watching much footy I would suggest you are not watching much of your own side if you think for even a moment that Kerr is an outside mid - he certainly isn't getting many of his touches from handball receives! Are you implying that sides only have one "inside" mid? If so - wow, just wow.

No, I am suggesting that Kerr lining up in a centre square with Priddis and A Selwood had a different role to when he lined up there with Judd and A Selwood.

Just like judd has acknowledged that he has become more inside since moving to Carlton, its also true that Kerr has had to play more "outside". Which is not to say he is Andrew Gaff but rather that his role is different. Earlier this year Woosh suggested he would need to play more outside and Kerr himself has said on numerous occasions that his role was different after Judd left....

The notion that mids are either exclusively one or the other is of course typically flawed but anyone who isnt aware that Kerr plays a different role alongside Priddis to that he played alongside Judd must have been hiding for 3 or 4 years ...

Interestingly, when Kerr played his best game in ages v Essendon he played a purely inside role often with Shuey outside him ... I would have thought a bloke who fakes footy knowledge as much as you might have noticed some of this stuff?

 

[amazingjoshy]

No, I am suggesting that Kerr lining up in a centre square with Priddis and A Selwood had a different role to when he lined up there with Judd and A Selwood.

Just like judd has acknowledged that he has become more inside since moving to Carlton, its also true that Kerr has had to play more "outside". Which is not to say he is Andrew Gaff but rather that his role is different. Earlier this year Woosh suggested he would need to play more outside and Kerr himself has said on numerous occasions that his role was different after Judd left....

The notion that mids are either exclusively one or the other is of course typically flawed but anyone who isnt aware that Kerr plays a different role alongside Priddis to that he played alongside Judd must have been hiding for 3 or 4 years ...

Interestingly, when Kerr played his best game in ages v Essendon he played a purely inside role often with Shuey outside him ... I would have thought a bloke who fakes footy knowledge as much as you might have noticed some of this stuff?

and Priddis right along side him.....

 

[Eagle87]

and Priddis right along side him.....

Is there a point? Priddis had a poor game and Kerr was released to play his "you get it first inside role" he killed them ...

In that first half we often had Selwood, Kerr & Shuey as our starting 3 mids in the centre square ...

My point, we are better off with Kerr in that role with a Shuey outside and a tagger/run with (S Selwood) IMO.

 

[amazingjoshy]

Your post was suggesting that Kerr plays a different role when Priddis is there...yet tin that first half against Essendon that you refer to both Priddis and Kerr played "inside" roles and it worked well. You seem to be implying Kerr's form is related to Priddis's role in the team. Bit of a cop out for Kerr really dont you think?

Both dropped away in the 2nd half.

 

[sTeeL]

Adam Selwood says Priddis is as good Judd and Cousins! There ya go. Definitive E87

 

[Eagle87]

Your post was suggesting that Kerr plays a different role when Priddis is there...yet tin that first half against Essendon that you refer to both Priddis and Kerr played "inside" roles and it worked well. You seem to be implying Kerr's form is related to Priddis's role in the team. Bit of a cop out for Kerr really dont you think?

Both dropped away in the 2nd half.

Kerrs role in the team has been different to what it was because Priddis can't play inside/out like Judd. Priddis is solely inside and Kerr had to adopt a more outside component to his game.

Kerr would be better playing the main inside mid role alongside a player with more line breaking pace and ability than Priddis. There is no doubt, at all, that Kerrs form has been related to playing alongside an inferior player.

I mean does anyone doubt that?

 

[Eagle87]

Adam Selwood says Priddis is as good Judd and Cousins! There ya go. Definitive E87

Yes, I watch the news too. He then said he is their equal in preparation and work rate. He also said he is a tortoise who gets by trying to work harder than others ...

Just for clarity, you are agreeing that Priddis is as good as Judd & Cousins?

I mean FFS ...