Zoning, until we master it we cannot be elite

[Big Red is back]

TYPO IN HEADING WOOPS - ZONING UNTIL WE MASTER IT WE CANNOT BE ELITE

I have now been to each of the Victorian finals and watching the Saints, Pies, Cats and Crows play, it is amazing how advanced there zoning is.

The sophistication they have combined with the defensive running of their mids and all players is amazing.

When I think how open we left the lions forward line it makes me cringe. Noting that there is no chance any of these teams would ever leave their backlines so open.

The positive of this is we have a huge upside, as once we can implement it surely we will improve.

The question, do our coaches and players have the skills and mindset to develop and implement such plans.

 

[blue gunslinger]

Re: Zoning, until we master it will cannot be elite

2 seasons ago it was flooding or beating the flood.
Zoning is only as good as the players you have and the hard work they are willing to put in and decision making skills they have. Our players as individuals and a team unit need better fitness, better skills and better problem solving in every facet of play

 

[wavefall21]

Re: Zoning, until we master it will cannot be elite

I couldn't agree more, without an effective zoning game plan we can't win the flag, saints and pies are best at it, we jsut don't work hard enough as team to help each other out and don't have the smart to leave our man when the opportunity is there

Rats really needs to knuckle down and work on zoning type game plan, i don't care if it's boring to watch, the main thing is it's effective and games are won on good defensive game plan, we can't win a flag the way we play footy, as exciting as it can be to watch at times, the reality is if you turn it over as often as we do we are going to be very quickly finding our way back into a defensive mode

 

[krayfesh]

We have a basic one. It'll improve over time.

The thing with all the zones already mentioned and last year's Hawthorn, is that it didn't materialise one preseason in a spark of genius.

It took a couple of years to get positioning and tactics right.

Wouldn't be surprised if we came out next season with a much better zone.

Or we could just play man on man.

 

[Lukesta63]

Well last night we saw what happened to a very good "zoning" side!

How about we improve our fitness another level or two and play man on man .I'd like to see an elite zoning team beat us then!!

 

[BlueSnake]

I like seeing us play man on man, but then again I like seeing that in general, I guess I prefer the more contested footy...but zoning is all the rage right now and it appears we're trying to get our zoning right. From what I can gather, at times it's down right failed for us, but it's mostly because of the players and their willingness (or lack of) to run hard for each other, particularly backwards.

I reckon just give it time. Our group is mostly still settling (which has been difficult this year of course) and stuff like this could take a couple of years to 'master', as already mentioned.

 

[40yearBLUE]

I like seeing us play man on man, but then again I like seeing that in general, I guess I prefer the more contested footy...but zoning is all the rage right now and it appears we're trying to get our zoning right. From what I can gather, at times it's down right failed for us, but it's mostly because of the players and their willingness (or lack of) to run hard for each other, particularly backwards.

I reckon just give it time. Our group is mostly still settling (which has been difficult this year of course) and stuff like this could take a couple of years to 'master', as already mentioned.

Nice post, good thread.

Time is what it takes. All "successful" teams have to go through a building phase, the deeper they start from the longer that phase takes. Another great measure of where a list is at is to look at who is still on the list from say 5 years ago. Teams with a high percentage of a playing group relatively unchanged from 5 seasons ago are either hitting the top of the comp or if not, they are stubbornly clinging to a group that cant make the grade (Richmond couldnt make the finals, Collingwood cant win a flag, Adelaide similar to Collingwood, not sure the Bulldogs can either but they are still in their development window and show signs each year but fall away at points during it). The Cats and Saints have been building to this years GF for about 5 years. Both stumbled on the way, (Thompson almost got fired, and Saints sacked GT) and of course the Cats have already made it but it took a number of years to get there is my point. Our time will come very soon.

 

[thylacine60]

Nice post, good thread.

Time is what it takes. All "successful" teams have to go through a building phase, the deeper they start from the longer that phase takes. Another great measure of where a list is at is to look at who is still on the list from say 5 years ago. Teams with a high percentage of a playing group relatively unchanged from 5 seasons ago are either hitting the top of the comp or if not, they are stubbornly clinging to a group that cant make the grade (Richmond couldnt make the finals, Collingwood cant win a flag, Adelaide similar to Collingwood, not sure the Bulldogs can either but they are still in their development window and show signs each year but fall away at points during it). The Cats and Saints have been building to this years GF for about 5 years. Both stumbled on the way, (Thompson almost got fired, and Saints sacked GT) and of course the Cats have already made it but it took a number of years to get there is my point. Our time will come very soon.

Good call... clever call... important call, 30-Man.

 

[Bluebear]

Wouldn't be surprised if we came out next season with a much better zone.

Or we could just play man on man.

Watch out for those splinters.

 

[XClemX]

Todd Viney is the master at the zone...While the Crows had had the zone, it was reworked extensively this season...

the Crows foot and handball work and success rate was very good this season, as is the Saints....

He was with Hawthorn last season and we know that result...

Skill work is the key, and the hard run from forward line into the backline and back out again...Skill work for the turnover to turn into a result..quick hand ball to beat the tackle that is about come...

the zone is easy to look at, and for many to think they can work it out, but to truely work it out, you must understand which line and which player in that line moves to what hole as the ball is moved...that is where TV has become the master at learning and creating the rules for the zone..

I think Carlton will need to get another Assistant with experience to help out before they are where it needs to be with the club...
2nd string palyers are also whats needed to make it work...the midfield is already running games to capacity, but it is the flank, pocket and wing players that make up the swarm....

This ofcourse is all IMO..it's certainly how i read the zone...

 

[40yearBLUE]

Todd Viney is the master at the zone...While the Crows had had the zone, it was reworked extensively this season...

the Crows foot and handball work and success rate was very good this season, as is the Saints....

He was with Hawthorn last season and we know that result...

Skill work is the key, and the hard run from forward line into the backline and back out again...Skill work for the turnover to turn into a result..quick hand ball to beat the tackle that is about come...

the zone is easy to look at, and for many to think they can work it out, but to truely work it out, you must understand which line and which player in that line moves to what hole as the ball is moved...that is where TV has become the master at learning and creating the rules for the zone..

I think Carlton will need to get another Assistant with experience to help out before they are where it needs to be with the club...
2nd string palyers are also whats needed to make it work...the midfield is already running games to capacity, but it is the flank, pocket and wing players that make up the swarm....

This ofcourse is all IMO..it's certainly how i read the zone...

Thats a pretty good call Clem, but I would add I rider. It is not so much skill that is lacking when a team cannot execute the zone or indeed deal with a zone, because I believe most players at the top level possess the skills. If you watch players before training starts most could hit a fly on the goal post from 30 meters away with a stab pass. But put them under pressure, both physical and mental pressure and those skills drop away rapidly. You see it in games all the time, young guys set off on a brilliant run, evading tacklers along the way only to miss the pass or shot for goal, because of fatigue. A kick they did 99 times out of 100 a couple of days ago when fooling around before training but come game day, nyet, nada.

This is what training is all about, especially pre-season. Building the core fitness to run out games and seasons, the body size and strength whilst maintaining mobility to hold their ground in a one on one or break a tackle to keep the ball moving in the direction we want, building the mental toughness to want to press on for just 30 more minutes or come back from 5 goals down even though they already feel exhausted, knowing without looking or thinking where they are on the ground and where their team mate will be now and 10 seconds from now during a play. All of these attributes are what time together on the track and in games brings. A settled list, a relatively injury free run so that basically the same team play with each other each week and the belief borne of repetition on the track in their game plan and team mates takes time to build. We are building it, it will come.

Just one more point to this line of thinking. Players take differing lengths of time to "develop" and it is an inexact science knowing when a player is going to hit their stride, for example, JR took a couple of years longer than others of the same draft (perhaps Pagan ******ed his growth) and Yazzle wasn't the instant hit people expected him to be whereas Kruze, Murph and Gibbs have been in the best 22 from day 1 at the club, but we have experts that have a better idea how long it will take to "develop" a recruit for the role we want them for and part of their task is to have the best 22 all peak at roughly the same time. Perhaps a sign that the development team know that the peak is imminent is recruiting ready made players to fill holes, as Hawthorn did and StKilda did. We have stuck to youth for the past few seasons because of need, we did not yet have the foundation of a competitive team, now that we do almost have the right mix expect to see some mature players traded for or drafted here and there to fill those last few holes, if not this trade period then I believe it to be a sign the recruiters and coaches feel we are still a season off being truly ready. Thats not to say we wont be ultra competitive, but not quite unstoppable without the last jigsaw pieces in place, and then a whole lot of luck with injury will see us win a flag or 3.

 

[Bluebear]

Anyone else find it interesting that when the Pies switched from zoning to man-to-man it turned the game on its ear?

Once the zone is broken down it will disappear as did flooding. It is far too weak at the back, and when teams figure out how to penetrate it it's gone.

IMO by the time we chase it and develope it the game will have evolved and moved past it.

While I agree we need to push more numbers back to help defensively, I don't think we necessarily need to pursue "the Zone" as it stands.

 

[XClemX]

The zone will be with the game for far longer than we can imagine, due mostly to hard running players and coaches who love it...I mean who as a coach doesn't love a player who will run into the backline to help out and then shift the ball thru the midfield and deliver into the forward line...

and the way players are being viewed and drafted, 80% of players drafted will do excactly that...

I feel the way to beat the zone as it stands today, is for the offensive team to resort to the huddle in the centre corridor in between the 50 and the CHB line, stand in numbers and kick to the numbers, forcing teams to change from zone to man, then play the game from the other way, one on one with hard running...