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I don't think he has passed his peak.
The "another few years" comment, refers to what he can or could do in that time. Durability, longevity and consistency are often what can separate a great player from one of "the greats".
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Hird vs Judd
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The "another few years" comment, refers to what he can or could do in that time. Durability, longevity and consistency are often what can separate a great player from one of "the greats".
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Judd is a year younger than Greg Williams who joined Carlton in his 29th year and for the 1992 season. Williams won his third Brownlow as a 30 year old and with more question marks against him than Judd. Slow and with a degenerative knee that was bone on bone, yet still won a North Smith Medal at 31.
Barring a Kouta-type injury, I can't see Judd going backwards any time soon. Bradley was a fitness machine like Judd, albeit more outside, but just kept getting better and better.
Judd could easily play at half back or half forward, but he'd be wasted there.
Barring a Kouta-type injury, I can't see Judd going backwards any time soon. Bradley was a fitness machine like Judd, albeit more outside, but just kept getting better and better.
Hird could play forward, but there's no way known that he could play at CHB like Koutoufides and Carey. Carey could move into the middle like Pavlich to get a kick.
Judd could easily play at half back or half forward, but he'd be wasted there.
That's what he does.
Tough. 3 or 4 years ago i would have said judd will probably end up better. But judd has gradually deteriorated.
Hird but not by much.
I would tie judd with buckley maybe.
Hird but not by much.
I would tie judd with buckley maybe.
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Surely you don't think Buckley is as good as Judd. Judd is a tier above. Buckley was probably the best kick of a football I've ever seen, but apart from that, Judd kills him.
I reckon of the recent greats he's a good fit with buckley for me. Would class him with buckley, ricciuto and voss. Hird was a step above those three.
If judd plays well until he's above 30 though he will probably be considered better than those three. But in my opinion since 06 he has been on a gradual gradual decline so im only expecting him to get worse.
I don't think i will ever look at him as better than hird. That being said judds best was better in my opinion than just about anyone ive seen.
I don't know what it is about hird but there was just something about him that shouted champion. Always rose when his team needed him. Kicked the goal in the final minute to get his team over the line type player.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUhhHA-AJvc
I think this how i would summarize the two. Judds close but not quite.
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Buckley was a better mark, better goal kicker, got more of the ball and used it better than Judd does... ridiculous to say that Judd 'kills him' in any aspect of the game.
Buckley also could play down back (see the game where he went to CHB on Carey who was at the peak of his powers - Bucks won the duel) & forward (kicked 6 goals in a game vs Brisbane in 06).
It's unfortunate that Buckley was at his peak when our club was probably at its lowest ebb, however he did take us to two grand finals against arguably the best side that has ever played the game.
Buckley was an absolute champion footballer, the only thing Judd's done that Bucks didn't was win a flag.
Yes, but apparently to all Collingwood fans after last year, a Premiership makes a great player apparently.
So in that case Blair > Buckley to most new breed Collingwood fans.
Buckley was nowhere near Judd in terms of contested ball ability. That's Buck's major criticism.
Judd certainly "kills" him in that regard.
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He was guilty of a lack of contested ball winning ability early in his career and unfortunately the tag stuck.
The reality is that improved this area of his game immensely as his career progressed and became excellent in contested situations.
If i connect the dots on your username i'm not certain that you're old enough to appreciate what a good player Buckley was. Your comments in this thread seem to support this.
Or not. Buckley could dominate games in a Kp. The only area Judd wins is in contested ball. That's it. Buckley had much better skills, was a better mark and was far more versitile.
This. Buckley was a far more rounded player. Judd's disposal efficiency is grossly overrated. Bucks has him covered for everything except explosive pace and hard ball winning ability. Judd will lose his pace and will have to add more strings to his bow. Unfortunately the fact that Bucks wasnt a Premiership player will mark him down in peoples eyes. This is unfair as Buckley was a dead-set champion of the game.
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Take it to the Bay mate...
Laughable.
Bucks was the complete player.
He holds the league record for clearances in 2003, ie when he had J.Fraser as his number 1 ruck he was better than Judd at his 2006 peak (Judd had Cox palming the ball down his throat too.)
Buckley a much better user of the footy....also a much better mark, goal kicker and captain.
The only thing Judd has is that he was quicker
This ^
He will never be the same player again injuries have taken their toll reducing his most effective asset "burst speed" such a shame who knows how good he could of become had he remained injury free.
You can't possibly use "injuries" as an excuse for Judd when comparing to Hird. Absolutely laughable. Half the AFL world wrote Hird off after he only played 20 odd games from '97, '98 and '99. And look what he did since!
At the same stage of their career - 27 years of age, there really is no comparison.
Admittedly it was before my time but Judd had played 88 more games than Hird by 27 years old.
Games
Judd: 198
Hird: 110
That's a huge difference right there. Even though Hird played till he was 34, if Judd should easily eclipse Hird's game tally of 253.
Best and fairests
Judd: 2004, 2006, 2008, 2009, 2010
Hird: 1994, 1995, 1996
5 to 3 B&Fs at the same stage of their careers. Judd got one in a premiership season.
All Australian
Judd: 2004, 2006, 2008, 2009, 2010
Hird: 1995, 1996
Judd ahead 5 to 2.
Brownlows
Judd: 2006, 2010
Hird: 1995 (joint)
Judd again ahead. Already well ahead of Hird's career tally (162 to 125).
Judd also a Norm Smith Medalist by 26 (Hird would win his at 27).
Admittedly Hird would play the majority of his games after 27 years old. Judd won't play until he's 34 but he could break the 300 (5/6 seasons will get him there) and eclipse Hird's games totals.
Even if he weren't to receive any more individual accolades, he's already ahead or on a par in most areas. And at 27 years old, you'd think Judd has another couple AAs and B&Fs left in him yet (not to mention a 2nd premiership).
At the end of their careers depends for mine on Judd's longevity in the game. If he can produce another 2 or 3 seasons at his current caliber than at least on paper, he'll well and truly have eclipsed Hird.
At the same stage of their career (or rather age, as Judd is likely far closer to retirement than Hird was at 27), it has to be Judd.
Admittedly it was before my time but Judd had played 88 more games than Hird by 27 years old.
Games
Judd: 198
Hird: 110
That's a huge difference right there. Even though Hird played till he was 34, if Judd should easily eclipse Hird's game tally of 253.
Best and fairests
Judd: 2004, 2006, 2008, 2009, 2010
Hird: 1994, 1995, 1996
5 to 3 B&Fs at the same stage of their careers. Judd got one in a premiership season.
All Australian
Judd: 2004, 2006, 2008, 2009, 2010
Hird: 1995, 1996
Judd ahead 5 to 2.
Brownlows
Judd: 2006, 2010
Hird: 1995 (joint)
Judd again ahead. Already well ahead of Hird's career tally (162 to 125).
Judd also a Norm Smith Medalist by 26 (Hird would win his at 27).
Admittedly Hird would play the majority of his games after 27 years old. Judd won't play until he's 34 but he could break the 300 (5/6 seasons will get him there) and eclipse Hird's games totals.
Even if he weren't to receive any more individual accolades, he's already ahead or on a par in most areas. And at 27 years old, you'd think Judd has another couple AAs and B&Fs left in him yet (not to mention a 2nd premiership).
At the end of their careers depends for mine on Judd's longevity in the game. If he can produce another 2 or 3 seasons at his current caliber than at least on paper, he'll well and truly have eclipsed Hird.
At the same stage of their career (or rather age, as Judd is likely far closer to retirement than Hird was at 27), it has to be Judd.
You believe that at 27 Hird had had a better career than Judd?
At that stage in his career, Judd had not only played significantly more games, but unquestionably a higher percentage at a higher level than Hird. Not only did he explode onto the season (where Hird took a while to really hit his stride), only his 07 could be termed as average, and even then he was flying for the first 8 or so rounds.
On what basis could you argue Hird had a better career than Judd at 27? You couldn't, period.
Even if Hird was a better player (which wasn't the case), it most certainly doesn't come close to the 88 games difference between them.
As a 27 year old, Judd will be very hard pressed to reach the heights and longevity that Hird did in that portion of his career. He doesn't have to match him, as he's already got a considerable head start.
3 solid, injury free seasons and the question of who's had a better career becomes a valid one. 100 more games from Judd at an solid to excellent level and for mine he eclipses Hird.
Hird's played 253 games but a number of those were at a fairly ordinary level, mostly due to injury. As an example, he's had 17 games where he's picked up less than 10 touches, and was goalless in most. Judd has had only 4 by comparison. Hird might have played more spectacular games but he's also played more ordinary games too.
At that stage in his career, Judd had not only played significantly more games, but unquestionably a higher percentage at a higher level than Hird. Not only did he explode onto the season (where Hird took a while to really hit his stride), only his 07 could be termed as average, and even then he was flying for the first 8 or so rounds.
On what basis could you argue Hird had a better career than Judd at 27? You couldn't, period.
Even if Hird was a better player (which wasn't the case), it most certainly doesn't come close to the 88 games difference between them.
As a 27 year old, Judd will be very hard pressed to reach the heights and longevity that Hird did in that portion of his career. He doesn't have to match him, as he's already got a considerable head start.
3 solid, injury free seasons and the question of who's had a better career becomes a valid one. 100 more games from Judd at an solid to excellent level and for mine he eclipses Hird.
Hird's played 253 games but a number of those were at a fairly ordinary level, mostly due to injury. As an example, he's had 17 games where he's picked up less than 10 touches, and was goalless in most. Judd has had only 4 by comparison. Hird might have played more spectacular games but he's also played more ordinary games too.
Not doubting he had a good contested side to his game. Highly disagree that it was as good as Judd's though. Buckley's hard ball ability was above average. Judd's is at the absolute pinnacle.
I was more than old enough to know what Bucks was capable of in his prime. The fact that i was too young to see him when he was younger and shirking packs should mean i have a better opinion of him, if anything.
Oh dear. Judd lead the league for clearances per game in 2010, a year which many called an average year. It says it all that you call Buckley an equal/better contested player because he led the clearances in his best year, yet Judd still wins it in one of his worst. They are poles apart in contested footy.
Judd is regularly at the bottom of a pack, with 3 players hanging off him, firing out handballs. That's where the 2008-> Chris Judd has excelled. Not with his pace.
Buckley was at his best on a wing, running his guts out, kicking the ball 60m with clinical skill.
Daylight between them when it comes to the hard ball. Sam Mitchell is a better contested player than Nathan Buckley. As is Matthew Boyd, Lenny Hayes etc.
Judd has rarely if ever taken the game by the scruff of the neck and got his team over the line in a close one. Hird did it on many occasions. Even in Judd's brownlow year Hird outclassed him when it came down to the final minute with scores tied. Hird won the clearance and then got the winning goal from the following stoppage while Judd was trying his best in the guts but just lacked that class and will to succeed that Hird has over him in spades.
Even in mid 2007 after Judd was dominating the comp Hird stood up in the second half to help get Essendon over the line by a point while Judd was getting owned by McVeigh and Peverill.
Judd has more 'stats' that Hird. Also has a shitload more meaningless stats. Hird was more versatile, better mark, better goal scorer, better leader, more loyal, far far more courageous, better big game player. Poll results reflect the gap between the two.
Even in mid 2007 after Judd was dominating the comp Hird stood up in the second half to help get Essendon over the line by a point while Judd was getting owned by McVeigh and Peverill.
Judd has more 'stats' that Hird. Also has a shitload more meaningless stats. Hird was more versatile, better mark, better goal scorer, better leader, more loyal, far far more courageous, better big game player. Poll results reflect the gap between the two.
I'm tempted to report that.
^Agree somewhat with the game breaking ability. But i think Judd was/is still a more consistent contributor to his teams performance.
I find it hilarious that Bombers' supporters always talk about that 2004 goal when talking about Hird. That was what, 10 seconds out of a 10+ year career? Hardly defines him as a player. It was just a H/A match and he turned it in the lastfew seconds. Good on him, but you can't base an opinion purely on that moment surely...
It's not as if Judd hasn't dragged his team across the line. He does it heaps. Remember the 2006 GF? Can't do it on a bigger stage than that. Certainly much more important than Hird's 2004 goal. Hell, nearly every Carlton win under 10 or so pts in the last 3 years could not have occured without him.
Hird had infrequent flashes of pure brilliance. Judd has constitent flashes of class.
Judd gets his team across the line more often, but when Hird did it it was in pretty spectactular circumstances.
I find it hilarious that Bombers' supporters always talk about that 2004 goal when talking about Hird. That was what, 10 seconds out of a 10+ year career? Hardly defines him as a player. It was just a H/A match and he turned it in the lastfew seconds. Good on him, but you can't base an opinion purely on that moment surely...
It's not as if Judd hasn't dragged his team across the line. He does it heaps. Remember the 2006 GF? Can't do it on a bigger stage than that. Certainly much more important than Hird's 2004 goal. Hell, nearly every Carlton win under 10 or so pts in the last 3 years could not have occured without him.
Hird had infrequent flashes of pure brilliance. Judd has constitent flashes of class.
Judd gets his team across the line more often, but when Hird did it it was in pretty spectactular circumstances.
Ochre
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wow
just wow
probably due to the fact that was the game where judd got that groin injury
