Society/Culture Do conservatives reject reality?

[Old Skool]

Chris Mooney, author of "The Republican Brain: the Science of Why they Reject Science -- and Reality", makes some very interesting observations.

ABC radio interview:

http://www.abc.net.au/radio/player/...scienceshow/the-republican-brain/3923772&p=1#

Alternet interview (FF to ~ 27:00 mark):

http://www.alternet.org/newsandview...reject_science;_wall_street_gets_a_super-pac/

 

[campbell]

Re: Is conservatism a form of mental illness?

wow. where do you find this stuff?

and no it isn't.

 

[Old Skool]

Re: Is conservatism a form of mental illness?

wow. where do you find this stuff?

Here's a free chapter. Read it if you like.

http://au.wiley.com/WileyCDA/WileyTitle/productCd-1118094514.html

and no it isn't.

There's no way you could have listened to, and analysed, all that material in 4 minutes.

Your reaction provides an excellent example which favors Mooneys hypothesis.

 

[Malifice]

Re: Is conservatism a form of mental illness?

Ive never met a conservative that didnt know deep inside that they were wrong.

 

[Pie eyed]

Re: Is conservatism a form of mental illness?

Here's a free chapter. Read it if you like.

http://au.wiley.com/WileyCDA/WileyTitle/productCd-1118094514.html



There's no way you could have listened to, and analysed, all that material in 4 minutes.

Your reaction provides an excellent example which favors Mooneys hypothesis.

Looks to be a book worth reading, if only because I subconsciously agree with where it's going and it supports my preconceived beliefs.

 

[Old Skool]

Re: Is conservatism a form of mental illness?

Looks to be a book worth reading, if only because I subconsciously agree with where it's going and it supports my preconceived beliefs.

Boom tish!

As Mooney states, you have to admire the willpower of this guy:

http://www.conservapedia.com/Relativity

 

[Father Jack]

Re: Is conservatism a form of mental illness?

Oh good, more polarisation

 

[Contra Mundum]

It does not seem that the guy gives the believers enough respect. Try the Reactionary Mind which is a great book:

http://www.oup.com/us/catalog/general/subject/Politics/PoliticalTheory/?view=usa&ci=9780199793747

He takes what they say seriously [blurb is a bit misleading]

 

[Old Skool]

It does not seem that the guy gives the believers enough respect. Try the Reactionary Mind which is a great book:

http://www.oup.com/us/catalog/general/subject/Politics/PoliticalTheory/?view=usa&ci=9780199793747

He takes what they say seriously [blurb is a bit misleading]

There's a first.

I never thought i'd see Edmund Burke and Sarah Palin in the same book title.

Will do CM. Thanks.

 

[rayven]

Re: Is conservatism a form of mental illness?

Ive never met a conservative that didnt know deep inside that they were wrong.

I don't quite know what to make of that..

 

[Malifice]

Re: Is conservatism a form of mental illness?

I don't quite know what to make of that..

True story.

Ive just never seen a compelling argument in favor of conservative values aside from utilitarian ones (i.e. protect the prevailing status quo), despite asking repeatedly for one.

Almost invariably conservative arguments stem from fear and ignorance, rather than reason and insight.

Of course universities are fertile breeding grounds for us pinko lefties so that kind of adds up.

Odd bedfellows the conservatives. You have gun nuts, fundie christians, corporate moguls, homophobes, ultra nationalists, fascists, racists, illiterate rednecks and sexists all banding together under a common banner.

Then again the lefties are a strange mob as well. Environmentalists, commies, socialists, liberals, animal and human rights activists, do gooders and progressives all in the same boat.

 

[rayven]

It was like 30 years of confusion and frustration of mine nailed in one sentance..

To be fair a conservitive may say about lefties "i never known one yet that understands the importance of authority even how wrong authority is on an individual matter as long as the common good as laid out in the bible is adhered to...

Sitting under a Nth american Indian teppee made out of kangaroo grass and river gum twigs after bathing in a leech infested swamp from an intermitent creek in an arid land of SA, a day after I jumped the fence into a cold chisel warm up concert, a former much experienced in political campaigning greeny said to me that lefties were by nature 'dissedents'...

 

[medusala]

Re: Is conservatism a form of mental illness?

Ive just never seen a compelling argument in favor of conservative values aside from utilitarian ones (i.e. protect the prevailing status quo), despite asking repeatedly for one.
.

You can't understand liberalism at all I see no reason whatsoever why you would be able to grasp the essence of conservatism.

Odd bedfellows the conservatives. You have gun nuts, fundie christians, corporate moguls, homophobes, ultra nationalists, fascists, racists, illiterate rednecks and sexists all banding together under a common banner.

Well there you go, straight off the bat. As anyone even on nodding terms with history knows fascism is a derivation from socialism.

As for racism who brought in WAP, who got rid of slavery etc etc. You yourself make no bones about being pro racism, all you quibble about is which "race" the government should discriminate against ie whites are fine, others are not

Further ultra nationalist parties like the BNP tend to comprised of ex labour voters are are in working class areas like Tower Hamlets and Bradford.

So many errors in such a small post.

 

[Malifice]

Re: Is conservatism a form of mental illness?

You can't understand liberalism at all I see no reason whatsoever why you would be able to grasp the essence of conservatism.

Been discussed with you ad nauseum Meds.

Im a liberal - youre a minarchist propertarian masqeurading as a libertarian.

Well there you go, straight off the bat. As anyone even on nodding terms with history knows fascism is a derivation from socialism.

So what?

Fascism is ultra nationalism taken to the extreme. Its about as conservative and right wing of a political ideology as you can get.

For what its worth Socialism isnt 'left wing either'. Stalin certainly wasnt progressive, left wing or liberal. Quite the opposite in fact.

Im politically left wing, but im opposed to Communism and support a regulated capatalist market based economy (as every liberal should be).

Youre confusing economics with political ideologies (again).

Speaking of fascism, it seems right up your alley. What part of the following do you not support:

Fascism is a radical authoritarian nationalist political ideology. Fascists seek rejuvenation of their nation based on commitment to an organic national community where its individuals are united together as one people in national identity by suprapersonal connections of ancestry, culture, and blood through a totalitarian single-party state that seeks the mass mobilization of a nation through discipline, indoctrination, physical education, and eugenics. Fascism seeks to purify the nation of foreign influences that are deemed to be causing degeneration of the nation or of not fitting into the national culture

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

As for racism who brought in WAP, who got rid of slavery etc etc. You yourself make no bones about being pro racism, all you quibble about is which "race" the government should discriminate against ie whites are fine, others are not

Lol. I get it Meds, you dont like black people.

Further ultra nationalist parties like the BNP tend to comprised of ex labour voters are are in working class areas like Tower Hamlets and Bradford.

See my comments above re: illiterate rednecks and the uneducated.

Similar phenomenon in Oz with 'Howards battlers' (i.e. racist bogans)

 

[cancat]

Re: Is conservatism a form of mental illness?

Ive never met a conservative that didnt know deep inside that they were wrong.

I think you know deep at heart that when you grow up you will be a conservative.

 

[Malifice]

Re: Is conservatism a form of mental illness?

Just so were clear here Meds:

In politics, the Left, left-wing and leftist generally refer to support for social change to create a more egalitarian society. They usually involve a concern for those in society who are disadvantaged relative to others and an assumption that there are unjustified inequalities (which right-wing politics view as natural or traditional) that should be reduced or abolished.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left_wing

In politics, the Right, right-wing and rightist has been defined as the support or acceptance of social hierarchy. Inequality is viewed by the Right as inevitable, natural, normal, or desirable, whether it arises though traditional social differences, or from competition in market economies

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-wing_politics

And now You:

Far-right, extreme right, hard right, radical right, and ultra-right are terms used to discuss the qualitative or quantitative position a group or person occupies within right-wing politics. Far right politics involves support of strong or complete social hierarchy in society, and supports supremacy of certain individuals or groups deemed to be innately superior who are to be more valued than those deemed to be innately inferior.[1] The far right's advocacy of supremacism is based on what it perceives as innate characteristics of people that cannot be changed.[2] This has been confused with the centre right's criticism of inferior behaviour, such as laziness and decadence, that lead people to inferior situations in comparison to others.[3]

The far right claims that superior people should proportionally have greater rights than inferior people.[5] The far right has historically supported elitist society based on belief of the legitimacy of the rule of a claimed superior minority over the inferior masses; and that the superior minority by virtue of their superiority have the right to make mandatory decisions upon the inferior masses that decide what roles certain elements of the masses are to pursue and other issues.[6]

Far-right politics may involve anti-immigration and anti-integration stances towards groups that are deemed inferior and undesirable.[7] At the most extreme, far-right movements have pursued oppression and genocide against groups of people on the basis of their alleged inferiority.[8] Far right politics commonly includes authoritarianism, nativism, racism and xenophobia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Far_right

That last one sound familiar Mr 'Meritocracy/ Black people are racially dumber than white people/ anti migration/ pro Nationism'?

 

[Malifice]

Re: Is conservatism a form of mental illness?

I think you know deep at heart that when you grow up you will be a conservative.

I started out as a conservative before seeing the error of my ways. You know the type - ABSTUDY is 'racist', some races are inherently inferior or possess certain traits, affirmitive action is sexist/ racist, welfare state should be dismantled, homosexuality is a mental disorder, we need conscription/ unltra nationalist movements etc.

15 years ago I would have applauded Meds.

Now i pity him.

 

[cancat]

Re: Is conservatism a form of mental illness?

I started a conservative before seeing the error of my ways

No, you started as an ignorant racist. Becoming a rational conservative is a not a return to where you started.

 

[Malifice]

Re: Is conservatism a form of mental illness?

No, you started as an ignorant racist. Becoming a rational conservative is a not a return to where you started.

Ive yet to meet a 'rational' conservative.

As posted above, conservativism doesnt rely on reason, but prejudice and ignorance. And no, 'reasoned' decisions based on prejudice dont count.

Its not always racial prejudice mind you, but the two do tend to go hand in hand.

 

[cancat]

Re: Is conservatism a form of mental illness?

Ive yet to meet a 'rational' conservative.

As posted above, conservativism doesnt rely on reason, but prejudice and ignorance. And no, 'reasoned' decisions based on prejudice dont count.

Its not always racial prejudice mind you, but the two do tend to go hand in hand.

How can you be sure your views are rational now? I'm sure you thought they were rational when you were a racist.

Who the hell doesn't think their views are based on rationality? To call someone's view irrational because you disagree with them is - well irrational.

Gillard is a conservative. Rudd is a conservative. Costello is a conservative. Are they racist? Are they homophobic? Are they irrational?

No to all three.

Bob Brown - clearly not conservative. Thinks the only reason aliens haven't contacted us is because they have all self destructed.

 

[Pie eyed]

Re: Is conservatism a form of mental illness?

How can you be sure your views are rational now? I'm sure you thought they were rational when you were a racist.

Who the hell doesn't think their views are based on rationality? To call someone's view irrational because you disagree with them is - well irrational.

Gillard is a conservative. Rudd is a conservative. Costello is a conservative. Are they racist? Are they homophobic? Are they irrational?

No to all three.

Bob Brown - clearly not conservative. Thinks the only reason aliens haven't contacted us is because they have all self destructed.

To be fair to Bob you're taking his comments out of context.
Unlike scientologists.

Is Tom Cruise rational?
How about Bob Katter?

 

[Malifice]

Re: Is conservatism a form of mental illness?

How can you be sure your views are rational now?

Because (unlike when I was a conservative) Ive actually looked into my views now, rather than basing them all on prejudice, stereotypes, ignorance and misconceptions.

Conservative arguments simply dont hold any water when placed under the microscope, and they lack objectively logical consistency.

They are all about maintenence of the prevailing status quo - usually white, male, hetero, white collar, corporate, christian interests.

And its hard to find a single logically consistent theoretical framework to justify advancement of those intrests.

Which is why conservatives often flounder when put under the blowtorch.

I'm sure you thought they were rational when you were a racist

Of course I thought I was rational, but I wasnt. Hans Brevik thinks he's rational but he isnt. Racism isnt logically consistent, nor is it rational. Its unsupported by science and the social sciences.

Same with religion.

In fact most religions are ridiculously inconsistent and irrational.

Of course, whats rational to one, is irrational to another. Subjective/ Objective and Po-Mo critique and all that.

Who the hell doesn't think their views are based on rationality? To call someone's view irrational because you disagree with them is - well irrational.

Im not saying theyre irrational becasue I disagree with them or do not support them. I am calling them irrational because they are unsupported (as far as I can see) by reason.

Conservative arguments lack coherency and are rarely supported by any actual empirical evidence or research. They are far more often supported by ignorance, selfishness, prejudice and fear - all four of which (aside from perhaps selfishness) are by very definition, irrational.

Dont get me wrong - there are some things im still fairly 'conservative' on. I support the nature/ nurture dichotomy with womens issues (much to the chargrin of many of my feminist friends), and I also support a strong military (to the detriment of my hippy friends), a capatalist market based economy (in opposition to my commie/ socialist mates) and tougher sentencing options for crimes such as murder (to the horror of many of my Lawyer colleauges).

I also believe that the State has an obligation pursuant to the social contract to act benevolently and respect and protect the freedoms, liberty and rights of its citizens.

 

[dumb]

Re: Is conservatism a form of mental illness?

Because (unlike when I was a conservative) Ive actually looked into my views now, rather than basing them all on prejudice, stereotypes, ignorance and misconceptions.

Conservative arguments simply dont hold any water when placed under the microscope, and they lack objectively logical consistency.

if i can just dip my toe into this debate. i'm sure you've looked into your political views. but your political self-assurance always seems at odds with your philosophical persuasions - that is, your adherence to skepticism and your own questioning of reality. as an onlooker it is very difficult to reconcile a person's self-proclaimed skepticism with other claims that conservatism is full of s**t. that to me, lacks logical consistency.

 

[Malifice]

Re: Is conservatism a form of mental illness?

if i can just dip my toe into this debate. i'm sure you've looked into your political views. but your political self-assurance always seems at odds with your philosophical persuasions - that is, your adherence to skepticism and your own questioning of reality. as an onlooker it is very difficult to reconcile a person's self-proclaimed skepticism with other claims that conservatism is full of s**t. that to me, lacks logical consistency.

Actually a pretty solid critique mate.

My philisophical views are based around the subjectivity of the outside world, and the objectivity of the mind.

In other words, Im skeptical of objective truth claims barring Cogito Ergo Sum.

Yet my political views are based around liberalism - which hinges on the existence of the 'objective reasonable person' (itself a legal fiction) and by extension, reasonably objective standards of conduct.

If I have one critique of liberalism its that it relies on objective standards or conduct (which obviously must be determined subjectively). It proclaims to adhere to an objective standard, but on examination, doesnt.

That said, dont mistake my skepticism for solipsism. While Im skeptical of the absolute existence of anything 'out there' Im prepared to accept the universe as it appears on face value, and work within those constraints.

I may doubt the existence of a truck bearing down on me on the freeway, but I wont be dancing blindfolded on the A1 any time soon.

 

[cancat]

Re: Is conservatism a form of mental illness?

Of course I thought I was rational, but I wasnt.

How do we know when we are being rational and when we are not? We are not rational creatures, we are rationalising.

Hans Brevik thinks he's rational but he isnt

He was found insane. It is convenient for you to base your prejudices around him but it is a non starter.

Dont get me wrong - there are some things im still fairly 'conservative' on. I support the nature/ nurture dichotomy with womens issues (much to the chargrin of many of my feminist friends), and I also support a strong military (to the detriment of my hippy friends), a capatalist market based economy (in opposition to my commie/ socialist mates) and tougher sentencing options for crimes such as murder (to the horror of many of my Lawyer colleauges).

See how it good (and right) it feels to be a conservative?