Fantasy BFFFL 2014 - Discussion

[sens]

Can we trade first round players?

Nope. What can't be kept can't be traded.

EDIT: On a related note, I would put forward the idea of doing away with pre-draft trading all together. It's an imperfect system and it doesn't really make sense that you can get value for players that you aren't keeping. As soon as keepers are confirmed you could go ahead with trading (either kept players or draft picks).

 

[Southerntakeover]

Yeah, I can see that logic, although philosophically the point of keeper limits is to promote player movement.

I'm getting a sense of deja-vu though. I'm sure we've had this discussion before.

 

[sens]

What would people think of the following rule changes to turn this into a more traditional "keeper" league:

1. Only drafted players can be kept
We've always had a problem valuing free agent pickups as keepers. For example – if the current rules stay in place – I would get Joique Bell this year for a 12th round pick, and potentially be able to keep him for his entire career (with the safe assumption that it will not last another 12 years).

This is obviously not a great system, especially when a player comes out of nowhere to be a fantasy star. As it stands now, whoever was lucky enough to have the #1 waiver claim in their breakout week gets to keep the player for their career.

Making free agents pickups unkeepable lowers the importance of the initial 1st waiver priority, which is somewhat paradoxically given to the owner of the 16th pick – the owner who won the league last season.

So, only having drafted players keepable simplifies the league, rewards good drafting, and means that a player can't be kept for eternity based on a free agent pickup.

Drafted players that are traded in season or dropped and picked up by another team would remain keepable.
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2. No trades before confirmation of keepers
Traditionally, in keeper league, the confirmation of keepers marks the end of the last season and the start of the new one. From that point, all facets of the previous season's team are left behind with the exception of three specified players.

At the moment, we have a very convoluted system that is difficult to explain to new comers. Previous year's players are tradable, and the original owner receives a pick in return, whilst that same pick is used by the new owner to keep that player.

As the original owner is not keeping that player, why should they be able to get something of value back for basically nothing? It benefits previous years owners that had good teams and stockpiled good players, as they have the ability to trade players that they can't keep for higher draft picks.

Due to roster limits, the draft pick that the original owner receives replaces a 16th round pick, so they are basically replacing a 16th round pick with a higher pick and giving up nothing from their team.

Of course, it also helps poorer teams, who are able to give up draft picks in exchange for better keepers, but this in turn gives their opponents better draft picks, hence hurts the other teams in the long run.

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These changes would turn this into the pure keeper league that it is intended to be. They remove complicated rules that require a lot of explaining for new members.

Of course these are just proposals. Nothing will change unless the majority of members agree.

Also, still need confirmation from Dagless

 

[Southerntakeover]

I haven't fully considered the second, but with respect to the first I think I favour a 'bid' system.

I do believe that good FA players deserve some reward, but at the moment it's overly skewed. Why not a system where the player is nominated as a keeper, and a bidding process ensues, similar to the AFL Father Son system. If you match the highest bid with your next pick, you get to keep. The shrewd FA players still get a reward by having right to match, and the players become appropriately valued according to the market.

 

[sens]

I haven't fully considered the second, but with respect to the first I think I favour a 'bid' system.

I do believe that good FA players deserve some reward, but at the moment it's overly skewed. Why not a system where the player is nominated as a keeper, and a bidding process ensues, similar to the AFL Father Son system. If you match the highest bid with your next pick, you get to keep. The shrewd FA players still get a reward by having right to match, and the players become appropriately valued according to the market.

I like the basic idea, but it also introduces another layer of complication that someone has to set up and run, and everyone has to be online at the same time to run it fairly and smoothly (a logistic impossibility). Alternatively you could do it via another Bigfooty draft-like process, but that takes an eternity and requires another level of organisation.

But then fundamentally, if they're going to be at market value, why keep them? The point of a keeper is to get them below market value. The same thing could be achieved by just making them unkeepable and throwing them back into the draft.

 

[Southerntakeover]

It doesn't need to be that complicated, just a few day window in between the deadline for keepers and the draft. Two days to bid, two days to respond, and cleanly move on. Could all be done in thread.

The value of keepers isn't to just get below market value, it depends upon the player. Some players are good enough to keep at their market value (anyway, generally speaking it ends up being below market value because it's your next pick). Either way, it adds a level for the owner, they get an option on the player its for them to decide whether the value is worthwhile.

 

[sens]

Here's an idea:
In addition to three drafted keepers, each team can nominate 1 free agent pickup that they reserve the right to keep within the drafting process – a restricted free agent if you will. When that player is drafted by a different team, the previous owner has the opportunity to commit to taking them with their next pick, or forfeit the player.

This is basically the father-son rule you alluded to, but without the complications of doing it outside the draft.

 

[sens]

On another note, if we can get to the point where the league's rules are simple and understandable at first glance, I'll try to write up a succinct "league by-laws" doc that puts everything in one place. A BFFFL Bill of Rights.

 

[drd23]

Keepers
Brandon Marshall (Rnd 2 last year)
Peyton Manning (Rnd 3)
Zac Stacy (Rnd 7)

 

[Dagless]

Tentatively

Rivers - 11th
Murray - 2nd

 

[Cassius_Clay]

All in the draft doc:
bit.ly/BFFFL-Draft

Jordy Nelson (4th Round)
Ladarius Green (Free Agent)

That is all

 

[sens]

So what do people think of the idea:
In addition to three drafted keepers, each team can nominate 1 free agent pickup that they reserve the right to keep within the drafting process – a restricted free agent if you will. When that player is drafted by a different team, the previous owner has the opportunity to commit to taking them with their next pick, or forfeit the player.

Much better than just having the stock standard FAs are a 12th round keeper, and would be fairly easy to manage. You'd just have a list of nominated players and whenever one of them gets drafted the original owner has a window of time in which to elect to keep the player or not.

 

[Dagless]

So what do people think of the idea:
In addition to three drafted keepers, each team can nominate 1 free agent pickup that they reserve the right to keep within the drafting process – a restricted free agent if you will. When that player is drafted by a different team, the previous owner has the opportunity to commit to taking them with their next pick, or forfeit the player.

Much better than just having the stock standard FAs are a 12th round keeper, and would be fairly easy to manage. You'd just have a list of nominated players and whenever one of them gets drafted the original owner has a window of time in which to elect to keep the player or not.

Not a fan.

If you were going to implement such a system, it should be removed from the three keepers list. Altering draft strategy too much otherwise IMO, and considering its a keeper league...

 

[sens]

Not a fan.

If you were going to implement such a system, it should be removed from the three keepers list. Altering draft strategy too much otherwise IMO, and considering its a keeper league...

It shouldn't alter draft strategy enormously. I'm assuming there'd only be about 7-10 players subject to the rule during in the draft. Less than 4% of players drafted.

Is there any decent alternative that doesn't involve FAs being 12th round keeper?

 

[Dagless]

It shouldn't alter draft strategy enormously. I'm assuming there'd only be about 7-10 players subject to the rule during in the draft. Less than 4% of players drafted.

Is there any decent alternative that doesn't involve FAs being 12th round keeper?

Make it dependent on scoring output minus three rounds?

 

[sens]

Make it dependent on scoring output minus three rounds?

Yeah, but will people be willing to look that up and gauge that against their other keeper options?

 

[Dagless]

Yeah, but will people be willing to look that up and gauge that against their other keeper options?

They probably should have the right to know the actual value of their players preordained rather than on a whim in the actual draft.

It's not like any other values move sporadically, we have a player like Rivers who will cost me an 11th based on where he was drafted. That was purely based on my super duper expertise (lol), but at the same time I deserve reward for that, which is the knowledge of what that players actual value is vs what it will cost me.

 

[balmainforever]

Keepers
A.Brown pitt(4)
Seahawks def(8)
R.Cooper phil (14)

 

[matt_897]

Keepers:
Helu (round 15)

 

[Latro]

When do you need keepers by?

 

[Cassius_Clay]

Keepers:
Helu (round 15)

Heluuuuuu Is he ready to be unleashed? Time that one dimensional mediocre running back in Alfred Morris is made backup.

 

[sens]

As Tcol has said he is out, two blue tiger will take his spot.

 

[sens]

When do you need keepers by?

ASAP.

 

[BeinPurplenGreen]

Keepers -

Gio Bernard (was picked in round 3 so I give up my round 2 this year I think??)
Aaron Dobson (was picked in round 12 so I give up my round 11 this year I think??)

No-one else in my lot worth keeping, frankly...

EDIT - also keeping Julian Edelman, for a round 14 pick, thanks!

 

[BeinPurplenGreen]

Keepers -

Gio Bernard (was picked in round 3 so I give up my round 2 this year I think??)
Aaron Dobson (was picked in round 12 so I give up my round 11 this year I think??)

No-one else in my lot worth keeping, frankly...

Actually I will also keep Julian Edelman - he was picked in round 15 so I give up a round 14 pick I think.