Certified Legendary Thread 34 Essendon* Players suspended for doping violations - No opposition fans. Check OP for thread rules

[ShanDog]

What the **** is this bullshit

"What did you take?"
"We dont know for sure but..."
"Two years off campaigner"


That should be the top and bottom of it

Best post regarding this saga I have seen by a country mile lol

 

[agro]

If they get off or get wet lettuce leaf sentences then I'll put these posters back up in the pool room

 

[BlueHeeler25]

But my question was, out of the 4 cases you were involved in, how many were reversed in appeal?
Its my understanding (and I maybe wrong), that you can only appeal if you have new evidence... I don't see anything new that Hird will bring to the table that will reverse the original decision.. Middleton made it pretty clear that even if he had have awarded in Hirds favour (which was highly unlikely), that ASADA could have just re-investigated.. He was very strong in his judgement for ASADA. Its almost like he laughed Hird and Essendon out of court...

Your understanding is completely incorrect. You can only appeal on matters of law - so you cannot contest factual findings but you can contest as to whether the Judge made an error at law. As part of that you can argue the reasonableness of a factual finding depending on the circumstances - e.g. if the test is on the balance of probabilities you can argue the Judge was wrong in finding on the balance of probabilities xyz occurred based on the evidence the Judge considered.

In my situation 2 out of 4 the ultimate outcome differed from the original decision. Another one the decision was reversed on appeal but the original decision upheld on further appeal.

 

[mediumsizered]

I think that if Hird gets off and is allowed to carry on his merry way... the rest of the clubs need to do something in protest.

While a forfeit when playing against Essendon* would mean that Essendon won the game, it would be sufficient to make a mockery of the league and Essendon*.

If by some slim chance Hird's challenge is successful & he keeps his position at the doping team, the other 17 AFL clubs may as well openly start doping programs & continue the AFL's race to oblivion.

The AFL has ****ed itself up so badly over this scandal that suddenly the huge advantage it had over the NRL & FFA in relation to how it is run has narrowed significantly due to the AFL's refusal to make some tough decisions in 2013. It should never be forgotten that it was only rugby league's Super League debacle that prevented it from becoming the #1 football code back in the '90s.

Unless the EFC, Hird & its players are appropriately sanctioned, the game is going to suffer a massive hit in the coming years.

 

[The Flying Doormat]

Your understanding is completely incorrect. You can only appeal on matters of law - so you cannot contest factual findings but you can contest as to whether the Judge made an error at law. As part of that you can argue the reasonableness of a factual finding depending on the circumstances - e.g. if the test is on the balance of probabilities you can argue the Judge was wrong in finding on the balance of probabilities xyz occurred based on the evidence the Judge considered.

In my situation 2 out of 4 the ultimate outcome differed from the original decision. Another one the decision was reversed on appeal but the original decision upheld on further appeal.

There are diary notes of an ASADA official about a meeting with the Minister's staff that have been placed before the Court. The concern is if people from that meeting are cross examined and then conversations between the ASADA officials present and those higher up at ASADA are disclosed all hell will break loose.

Again the source is a significant player in the Liberal Party so has no love for Labor. But I have never known him to embellish or be anything other than straight forward over the years.

Are these two statements contradictory or complimentary?

 

[footyfan1978]

If they get off or get wet lettuce leaf sentences then I'll put these posters back up in the pool room

Whatever supplements some Dons players were injected with it sure as hell was nothing like some of the serious drug performance enhancing stuff that plagued sports that truly can be influenced massively by injecting certain drugs that drastically change a persons form to help them in those sports. Will never forget the sight of female China swimmers a few decades back. Truly scary stuff what was done to them.

The amount of crap written on all this supplements saga stuff stuns me.
Having said that, Danks a frikkin cowboy of a chemist, ASADA are a joke and Essendon even worse. They all on the nose to different degrees. That is clear by the way each has conducted themselves in last year and a half.
I can only hope the AFL deal with their own sport with due respect for the context of the type of team sport we play and treat the media , Dank and ASADA with minimal importance to our sport. Their importance is only to this specific case and is little to our sport in general. After two longs years I await till mid December to finally actually get some progress of what may have happened and don't have to listen to speculation that goes nowhere.

 

[Thrawn]

Having said that, Danks a frikkin cowboy of a chemist, ASADA are a joke and Essendon even worse. They all on the nose to different degrees. That is clear by the way each has conducted themselves in last year and a half.

Why are ASADA are a joke?

They were initially under-resourced and under-manned, having to fight a legal battle with the club they were investigating as well as political pressure from the outside. In fact, they had limited power until legislation passed which is why they relied on AFL assistance so much. They were, at the beginning, not prepared for this at all, certainly not for the enormity and complexity. Yet here we are, two years later, finally taking this to the tribunal and backed not only by ex-federal judge Downes, but Richard Young, one of the prime architects of the WADA code. The guy who took down Armstrong. Both gave ASADA the green light, as well as Middleton on the legal side of things.

I don't think you have any idea what you are talking about. ASADA have done a fantastic job considering the circumstances, the only criticism I can see is their weak penalty to Cronulla. Fortunately for them though, such provisions are allowed under their anti-doping code. WADA understood that which is why they didn't appeal.

But please, tell us how you'd investigate a club-wide doping regime with paper trails going as far as China, with only a dozen people to investigate and limited funds at your disposal. An investigation that involves over a hundred people, with tens of thousands of documents, anticipating possible legal moves from Essendon and strategising according, getting evidence from the ACC and customs, etc.

 

[footyfan1978]

Why are ASADA are a joke?

I don't think you have any idea what you are talking about.

That's fine mate. We have a differing view.

There are so many people want to have their say on all this crap and think they are more informed than the next person. I am not willing to waste my energy on discussing in details on something I observe from afar that has such widely speculated information from so many sources. I'm not willing to spend time on forum on an opinion I have on this matter. It is totally boring to me this whole saga but I still have an opinion I am more than satisfied to say once in my rare mention of it and not bother getting into deeper. I know they are a joke to me. But why I believe that is not going to be spent any time typing on when I got more interesting stuff I prefer to discuss than bloody Essendon or ASADA.

 

[Thrawn]

That's fine mate. We have a differing view.

There are so many people want to have their say on all this crap and think they are more informed than the next person. I am not willing to waste my energy on discussing in details on something I observe from afar that has such widely speculated information from so many sources. I'm not willing to spend time on forum on an opinion I have on this matter. It is totally boring to me this whole saga but I still have an opinion I am more than satisfied to say once in my rare mention of it and not bother getting into deeper. I know they are a joke to me. But why I believe that is not going to be spent any time typing on when I got more interesting stuff I prefer to discuss than bloody Essendon or ASADA.

Thank you for the vindication.

 

[ajb72]

That's fine mate. We have a differing view.

There are so many people want to have their say on all this crap and think they are more informed than the next person. I am not willing to waste my energy on discussing in details on something I observe from afar that has such widely speculated information from so many sources. I'm not willing to spend time on forum on an opinion I have on this matter. It is totally boring to me this whole saga but I still have an opinion I am more than satisfied to say once in my rare mention of it and not bother getting into deeper. I know they are a joke to me. But why I believe that is not going to be spent any time typing on when I got more interesting stuff I prefer to discuss than bloody Essendon or ASADA.

because I've read the pro-EFC media?

Just discussing the other day what a sad state of affairs we will be in when fair fax media goes under.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Jabba73]

Whatever supplements some Dons players were injected with it sure as hell was nothing like some of the serious drug performance enhancing stuff that plagued sports that truly can be influenced massively by injecting certain drugs that drastically change a persons form to help them in those sports. Will never forget the sight of female China swimmers a few decades back. Truly scary stuff what was done to them.

The amount of crap written on all this supplements saga stuff stuns me.
Having said that, Danks a frikkin cowboy of a chemist, ASADA are a joke and Essendon even worse. They all on the nose to different degrees. That is clear by the way each has conducted themselves in last year and a half.
I can only hope the AFL deal with their own sport with due respect for the context of the type of team sport we play and treat the media , Dank and ASADA with minimal importance to our sport. Their importance is only to this specific case and is little to our sport in general. After two longs years I await till mid December to finally actually get some progress of what may have happened and don't have to listen to speculation that goes nowhere.

They dont know/wont admit what they injected the players with or what doses they used. If you dont consider that serious then I am stunned.

There is no half pregnant with this systematic injection regime, they are exactly as bad as the Chinese swimming team.

 

[Mezzoculo]

Agree with you quite a bit there footyfan. I find that skimming through this thread on a highly irregular basis keeps you up to date with what other Carlton fans think on this highly complex and polarising topic. For what that's actually worth in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Big Sim]

That's fine mate. We have a differing view.

There are so many people want to have their say on all this crap and think they are more informed than the next person. I am not willing to waste my energy on discussing in details on something I observe from afar that has such widely speculated information from so many sources. I'm not willing to spend time on forum on an opinion I have on this matter. It is totally boring to me this whole saga but I still have an opinion I am more than satisfied to say once in my rare mention of it and not bother getting into deeper. I know they are a joke to me. But why I believe that is not going to be spent any time typing on when I got more interesting stuff I prefer to discuss than bloody Essendon or ASADA.

In other words you dont know what you are talking about, so why bother talking about it?

 

[Big Sim]

So the players have a 3-pronged strategy:

1) We don't think we took anything prohibited and we dont think you can prove we did. And we don't know anything that will help you do so.

2) OK, you have proved to comfortable satisfaction that we took TB4. Well, we were not told that at the time, we were told everything they were pumpimg in to us was above board. So were were duped and we told you everything we knew so we want every discount under the sun on our penalties, and the lot backdated so that we miss no footy at all.

3) Wow, so we will miss some games. We now intend to sue whoever we can for putting us in this situation.

 

[Mezzoculo]

In other words you dont know what you are talking about, so why bother talking about it?

With all due respect Big Sim, that type of put down is unwarranted. Any conversation regarding this issue by anyone outside of the few at Essendon* / AFL / ASADA and their legal representatives is simple supposition - be it well reasoned or irrational. No-one's opinion is therefore any less valid until evidence is produced to refute it. Why get cranky at fellow Carlton supporters over an issue that only indirectly affects our club?

 

[Big Sim]

With all due respect Big Sim, that type of put down is unwarranted. Any conversation regarding this issue by anyone outside of the few at Essendon* / AFL / ASADA and their legal representatives is simple supposition - be it well reasoned or irrational. No-one's opinion is therefore any less valid until evidence is produced to refute it. Why get cranky at fellow Carlton supporters over an issue that only indirectly affects our club?

Thrawn did respond initially with an informed, thoughtful and concise post and the poster took no notice at all.

Thrawn and others take the time to trawl through piles of information to arrive at their opinions and are good enough to share them whereas footyfan admits he pays little attention but still stands by his opinion, with no basis to back it up. I find this kind of ignorance annoying and will call it out when it rears its head.

No apologies from me there Mezz, sorry. Wait, I did apologise for not apologising. OK?

 

[Mezzoculo]

Thrawn did respond initially with an informed, thoughtful and concise post and the poster took no notice at all.

Thrawn and others take the time to trawl through piles of information to arrive at their opinions and are good enough to share them whereas footyfan admits he pays little attention but still stands by his opinion, with no basis to back it up. I find this kind of ignorance annoying and will call it out when it rears its head.

No apologies from me there Mezz, sorry. Wait, I did apologise for not apologising. OK?

Haha. All good. I respect the work that posters such as Thrawn do on this topic. The number of rational, well considered posters (on either side of the fence) are few and far between on the main board, let alone this one.

I'd just argue that not dedicating the time required to get your head around such a complex issue shouldn't automatically preclude you from posting your thoughts about an issue very few of us can confidently say they are truly knowledgable about. We are a footy fan forum after all, not a branch of the Law Institute of Victoria or the Australian Sceptics.

 

[Azul]

Is Hird guilty or not? When does the execution by rotten tomato commence?

 

[BlueHeeler25]

Are these two statements contradictory or complimentary?

It takes a special type of mind to understand the law and how lawyers think.

The argument will be that it was wrong on the balance of probabilities (the legal question) to conclude ASADA conducted an independent and impartial investigation. To make that argument it is necessary to refer to the evidence led (i.e. the facts). As I said...special type of logic!

 

[Blue Flame]

Is Hird guilty or not? When does the execution by rotten tomato commence?

Poor guy pasta way.

 

[BlueHeeler25]

In other words you dont know what you are talking about, so why bother talking about it?

Ok I will play because this is just totally wrong.

1. ASADA is a statutory body set up under legislation that has been around for decades. They have annual processes where they can request changes to legislation to broaden their powers or to give them more funding. Can you point me to where they have requested wider powers and more funding before this issue arose? No you can't because it never happened.

2. ASADA, an independent statutory body, decided to be complicit in what was essentially a government stunt. The "blackest day in Australian sport" was essentially a media strategy by Jason Clare and Gillard's office to take attention away from Gillard's crazy decision to name an election date and Rudd continually back grounding against her. Despite the fact they had NOT carried out to proper investigation and not followed due process, ASADA officials decided to stand next to Government Ministers at a Press Conference announcing to the world that Australian sport had a drug problem. Remember the heads of all codes there? This was a political stunt and something an independent statutory body should not participate in.

3. ASADA then proceeded to conduct an investigation with the help of the AFL (who should have been one of the party's under investigation) and to allow the AFL to have access to its findings first, and to consent to the AFL taking action against Essendon (kicking them out of the 2013 finals). Perhaps you don't understand what a statutory body is? It is meant to be independent and impartial from ALL interference - government, third party etc. ASADA has shown itself to be the puppet of government.

4. ASADA then proceeded, during the course of its investigation, to meet with officials from the Minister's office to discuss the matter. Again independent statutory body - no such discussions should occur. The response should have been we are following our process and when that is done we will let you know.

5. ASADA then proceeded, prior to finishing its investigation and interviewing witnesses, to float concepts of "deals" to players. It then had officials giving media interviews. Again as an independent statutory body this should never happen.

So to say ASADA has conducted itself perfectly (which is not what you said but another poster said), is just plain wrong. It has failed to fulfil its obligations as an independent statutory body and IMO the senior executives should be sacked once this is all over and the legislation should be amended to state that it is a criminal offence for a third party, including Ministers, to interfere with ASADA investigations.

As for Essendon - I hope they burn in hell. But if it was Carlton in their shoes and our Board decided the legal route was too hard, I would be squealing like a cut pig. This probably won't get to the High Court, but if Hird has the balls and it does, the Court will slam ASADA without fear or favour.

 

[Big Sim]

Ok I will play because this is just totally wrong.

1. ASADA is a statutory body set up under legislation that has been around for decades. They have annual processes where they can request changes to legislation to broaden their powers or to give them more funding. Can you point me to where they have requested wider powers and more funding before this issue arose? No you can't because it never happened.

2. ASADA, an independent statutory body, decided to be complicit in what was essentially a government stunt. The "blackest day in Australian sport" was essentially a media strategy by Jason Clare and Gillard's office to take attention away from Gillard's crazy decision to name an election date and Rudd continually back grounding against her. Despite the fact they had NOT carried out to proper investigation and not followed due process, ASADA officials decided to stand next to Government Ministers at a Press Conference announcing to the world that Australian sport had a drug problem. Remember the heads of all codes there? This was a political stunt and something an independent statutory body should not participate in.

3. ASADA then proceeded to conduct an investigation with the help of the AFL (who should have been one of the party's under investigation) and to allow the AFL to have access to its findings first, and to consent to the AFL taking action against Essendon (kicking them out of the 2013 finals). Perhaps you don't understand what a statutory body is? It is meant to be independent and impartial from ALL interference - government, third party etc. ASADA has shown itself to be the puppet of government.

4. ASADA then proceeded, during the course of its investigation, to meet with officials from the Minister's office to discuss the matter. Again independent statutory body - no such discussions should occur. The response should have been we are following our process and when that is done we will let you know.

5. ASADA then proceeded, prior to finishing its investigation and interviewing witnesses, to float concepts of "deals" to players. It then had officials giving media interviews. Again as an independent statutory body this should never happen.

So to say ASADA has conducted itself perfectly (which is not what you said but another poster said), is just plain wrong. It has failed to fulfil its obligations as an independent statutory body and IMO the senior executives should be sacked once this is all over and the legislation should be amended to state that it is a criminal offence for a third party, including Ministers, to interfere with ASADA investigations.

As for Essendon - I hope they burn in hell. But if it was Carlton in their shoes and our Board decided the legal route was too hard, I would be squealing like a cut pig. This probably won't get to the High Court, but if Hird has the balls and it does, the Court will slam ASADA without fear or favour.

Take this to the HTB and you will get some learned argument against your opinion. That I can guarantee.

 

[The Flying Doormat]

It takes a special type of mind to understand the law and how lawyers think.

The argument will be that it was wrong on the balance of probabilities (the legal question) to conclude ASADA conducted an independent and impartial investigation. To make that argument it is necessary to refer to the evidence led (i.e. the facts). As I said...special type of logic!

I'll pass on your thoughts to my daughter...one more semester and she's finished her law degree

 

[Aphrodite]

If they get off or get wet lettuce leaf sentences then I'll put these posters back up in the pool room

How could you forget Le Jingyi!

 

[coryne]

How could you forget Le Jingyi!

What is wrong with that ??? He has the PERFECT body for a male swimmer !!!!!!!