List Mgmt. Collingwood needs to improve the top part of the list not the bottom six

[mike123]

It a good contrasting point and one I disagree on. While there are sometimes exceptions the rule of thumb is young players have to earn the right to play not be gifted games for their development. Almost always they should know they get games by forcing the incumbents out by superior performance.

Our young like Maynard, Scharenberg, Marsh, De Goey haven't been gifted games though and have earned the spot. I do believe that they are putting on superior then the likes of Toovey and Blair etc.

 

[TradeDraft]

Isn't that the Idea of getting Treloar. Getting Better Players in then we already Have?

 

[mike123]

Isn't that the Idea of getting Treloar. Getting Better Players in then we already Have?

Yes, the thing is though, he isn't going to replace one of our top 6 players though...

 

[jackcass]

Our young like Maynard, Scharenberg, Marsh, De Goey haven't been gifted games though and have earned the spot. I do believe that they are putting on superior then the likes of Toovey and Blair etc.

Shame none of them are competing for specific spots in the senior 22 and we can accommodate them all. Now when it comes to a point in time where selectors have to decide either Maynard/Scharenberg/Marsh or Toovey, or Degoey or Blair, then we might see a change in selection.

 

[mike123]

Shame none of them are competing for specific spots in the senior 22 and we can accommodate them all. Now when it comes to a point in time where selectors have to decide either Maynard/Scharenberg/Marsh or Toovey, or Degoey or Blair, then we might see a change in selection.

Can you name your best 22 that fits them all in?

 

[Gone Critical]

Our young like Maynard, Scharenberg, Marsh, De Goey haven't been gifted games though and have earned the spot. I do believe that they are putting on superior then the likes of Toovey and Blair etc.

I agree especially for Marsh and De Goey. I have no problem with them taking those spots on merit. All players involved need to put their best foot forward in 2016. If they do good for us

 

[jackcass]

Can you name your best 22 that fits them all in?

Yep, refer selected sides for rounds 20-22 (just off the top of my head as I think all 6 played) and I didn't say it would be my best 22 but clearly selectors seemed to think it was for those rounds. These "best 22" sides are so fluid and a bit of a lottery so don't put too much weight on it. My point was that it's not an either/or scenario and at times players from outside individual posters "best 22's" will get selected. I don't see why that is so hard to accept for some.

 

[mike123]

Yep, refer selected sides for rounds 20-22 (just off the top of my head as I think all 6 played) and I didn't say it would be my best 22 but clearly selectors seemed to think it was for those rounds. These "best 22" sides are so fluid and a bit of a lottery so don't put too much weight on it. My point was that it's not an either/or scenario and at times players from outside individual posters "best 22's" will get selected. I don't see why that is so hard to accept for some.

I'd rather not refer to an injury depleted side, and I said etc in my posts several times so I'm obliviously talking about more than six players.

 

[northpie]

Yes, the thing is though, he isn't going to replace one of our top 6 players though...

Trek oar will be top 6 without a doubt

 

[didaksrightfoot]

I agree.

I think we are in a pretty good place in terms of depth - we have plenty of those 16-30 across most positions (KPF is really the only spot - but a healthy Reid could move forward, with Frost or Marsh comfortably taking his spot down back - if that's where he's played).

I think it's a matter of both our top talent improving and also getting more out of them.

Pendles is class but did have a bit of a down year. (It happens) - Sidey and Adams need to reach their best more consistently. Swanny will still provide at times, but needs to be relied on less.
Obviously Treloar should add to that midfield class.

Down back, I think Marley is an elite half back in the making. Just needs to find the balance between defence an attack. In his first year or two he was a great lockdown defender (IMO) and last year he started attacking a lot but at the expense of that defensive side.

And Trav is the one I look to to really step up - not just him, but how the team works around him. I don't think he needs to be scoring 60+ goals for us to be successful (in fact the more spread we have the better), but he needs to be constantly running his man off his feet and taking those marks around CHF... Either leading to a shot near 50 or, ideally creating space behind him that the others need to take advantage of.

Obviously there are a few younger guys who have that potential to be top players, but the one that I think will be most crucial to our future is Brody. Started the year well, then struggled with form/injury/fitness in the 2nd half. I think Bucks now views him as the number 1 - and he needs to consistently step up to that and start regularly out playing his opponent - maybe not straight away, but soon.

 

[Alex_Y]

didn't read through the topic, so don't know if this has been brought up already, but I think the most painfully obvious weakness in Collingwood in 2015 was this:

We do not have enough big bodied, strong bodied midfielders who are inside hardball geters.

Pendlebury and Crisp are both tall, but both are ball receiving midfielders that play on the outside.
It was painfully obvious to me from the 1st time we played Geelong, and Adelaide in Melbourne this season, that our midfield was just too small and physically weak to compete.
At times this season, it was like watching 15 year old skinny kids (Collingwood midfielders), against a head taller, 15 kgs extra, 28 year old men (midfield opponents).
Unless the Collingwood midfield was at it's 100% pressure best in a match, it was ridiculous the amount of times, our midfielders would get their tackles struggled off with ease, by much more solid, bigger stronger opponents. It was like watching men vs boys at times.
Sidebottom, Blair, etc. are good, but at times, are just too small against stronger, bigger midfields.
We didn't recruit great imo, we have gone too small I think, and have too many ball receiving midfield runners, instead of more bigger, solid bodied inside midfielders.

 

[mike123]

We we first for contested possessions.

Crisp and Pendlebury aren't pure outside midfielder and we recruited De Goey.

Our midfield is fine, if anything it needs outside line breaking receivers.

 

[northpie]

didn't read through the topic, so don't know if this has been brought up already, but I think the most painfully obvious weakness in Collingwood in 2015 was this:

We do not have enough big bodied, strong bodied midfielders who are inside hardball geters.

Pendlebury and Crisp are both tall, but both are ball receiving midfielders that play on the outside.
It was painfully obvious to me from the 1st time we played Geelong, and Adelaide in Melbourne this season, that our midfield was just too small and physically weak to compete.
At times this season, it was like watching 15 year old skinny kids (Collingwood midfielders), against a head taller, 15 kgs extra, 28 year old men (midfield opponents).
Unless the Collingwood midfield was at it's 100% pressure best in a match, it was ridiculous the amount of times, our midfielders would get their tackles struggled off with ease, by much more solid, bigger stronger opponents. It was like watching men vs boys at times.
Sidebottom, Blair, etc. are good, but at times, are just too small against stronger, bigger midfields.
We didn't recruit great imo, we have gone too small I think, and have too many ball receiving midfield runners, instead of more bigger, solid bodied inside midfielders.

Can't agree with you Alex
Our midfield has an abundance of inside mids. What we lack are polished quick outside miss
Trevor will assist in that regard

 

[Alex_Y]

We we first for contested possessions.

Crisp and Pendlebury aren't pure outside midfielder and we recruited De Goey.

Our midfield is fine, if anything it needs outside line breaking receivers.

Your correct, but I'd that was because our ball handling and inaccurate passing at times was often scrappy, leading to more contests than some of the games. However often in contests, our midfielders would get outbodied, and tackles shrugged with ease. Unless our midfielders were switched on 100% with their pressure best, if there were games where we slightly dropped off our pressure, we would get beaten comfortably. Where as a bigger, stronger team, can get away more with a drop off in effort, during a game.

 

[mike123]

Your correct, but I'd that was because our ball handling and inaccurate passing at times was often scrappy, leading to more contests than some of the games. However often in contests, our midfielders would get outbodied, and tackles shrugged with ease. Unless our midfielders were switched on 100% with their pressure best, if there were games where we slightly dropped off our pressure, we would get beaten comfortably. Where as a bigger, stronger team, can get away more with a drop off in effort, during a game.

Yes, and we'd do the same to the opposition as well, that's what happens in a game of footy, you can't win all contests.

 

[Alex_Y]

Can't agree with you Alex
Our midfield has an abundance of inside mids. What we lack are polished quick outside miss
Trevor will assist in that regard

I personally thought the opposite I guess?
I thought we had too many ''slick'' outside midfielders. Pendlebury, Scharenberg, Seedsmen, Broomhead.
What big, strong bodies inside midfielders, do have really have?

 

[Laurie Holden]

I didn't realise we got that early third round pick. That effectively got us Ramsay for our late second and a late third round pick. Dawes and picks 41 and 61 for Broomy and Ramsay.

 

[Alex_Y]

Yes, and we'd do the same to the opposition as well, that's what happens in a game of footy, you can't win all contests.

Sometimes yes, but I'd see alot of our midfielders, get caught and out bodied more, than vice-versa, especially against bigger midfields.

 

[hellfire]

Well hopefully by improving our top 6 it pushes some of our current top 6 down the pecking order and therefore pushes the current bottom 6 out. So the players that were 10-16 become our bottom 6.... Mission accomplished.

"I can't see where we'll lose a game all year."

 

[mike123]

I personally thought the opposite I guess?
I thought we had too many smaller, ''slick'' outside midfielders. Pendlebury, Scharenberg, Seedsmen, Broomhead.
What big, strong bodies inside midfielders, do have really have?

Crisp, De Goey, Swan, Adams, Greenwood.

Treloar also looks to be ours soon.

Sometimes yes, but I'd see alot of our midfielders, get caught and out bodied more, than vice-versa, especially against bigger midfields.

I've noticed we have a habbit of letting tackles slip but at winning the ball I have to dissagree.

 

[BEEG]

Well done GC

Couple mates and I were laughing that Hawks each year seem to bring in a couple duds GF day just to make the game even

 

[northpie]

I personally thought the opposite I guess?
I thought we had too many ''slick'' outside midfielders. Pendlebury, Scharenberg, Seedsmen, Broomhead.
What big, strong bodies inside midfielders, do have really have?

Pendles at 190 and 90 kg and Seedsman and crisp of similar size are all big midfielders, and Pendles and crisp are good insiders. DeGoey and Maynard are both big bodied albeit young and still developing. Adams and greenwood are not tall hit at 84kgs and 90 kts respectively are big units and play hard inside football
Swanny better outside but very good clearance player is 186 and 93 kgs
I think it was an issue a few years back but it has been addressed
What we really lack is a smith and or hill from the Hawks. Fast outside players with super skills

 

[Tbone McGraw]

I am not sure why people dislike blair. I have hardly seen him play a bad game ever. He mightnt stand out but he gives his all. Goldy not far behind. We need these players.

Unfortunately tooves is looking finished which is sad.

 

[Bard]

Your correct, but I'd that was because our ball handling and inaccurate passing at times was often scrappy, leading to more contests than some of the games. However often in contests, our midfielders would get outbodied, and tackles shrugged with ease. Unless our midfielders were switched on 100% with their pressure best, if there were games where we slightly dropped off our pressure, we would get beaten comfortably. Where as a bigger, stronger team, can get away more with a drop off in effort, during a game.

We were a horrendous clearance team yes, but that's more attributed to our rucks who are still improving their tap-work. We were however first in the competition for contested possessions which pretty much nullifies your point... Also third (0.3 behind 1st) for average tackles per game. So yeah.. Our inside work around the ground is first class, clearances need improving, and disposal efficiency (more attributed to outside players) needs improving.

 

[THATSGOLD]

I am starting this thread because I see our improvement coming from the top of the list as youngsters develop and become A grade e.g Moore, De Goey, we pick up A grade talent e.g Treloar , as injured stars e.g Reid have full seasons or as Varcoe and Crisp become fixtures.

I have a few more points to make but would like to ask 3 questions you can answer in your mind just now.

How many goals do you think Paul Puopolo kicked in the 4 Hawks GFs 2012-15? How many possessions did he average through those 4 matches? Do you believe have was a valuable part of that team fully deserving of his place?

I will put the answer below. Why I ask this is because I see a lot of posters here having a strong belief we need to get players like Toovey, Blair or Goldsack out of the 22. While we don't need them to be successful I believe we can be successful with them in the team if the upper level players lift, pretty similar to 2010. All teams even the mighty Hawks have role players who are not great players but play a role in a great team with great structures and do their defined roles very well.

We need our best to be better, our potential stars to flourish and our coaches to define good structures. The least important of all this is who players 17-22 are.

Re those questions. Puopolo kicked 1 goal in those 4 GFs, that was in 2014 when the Hawks kicked 21. He has averaged 10.25 possessions per game. 2015 was the first GF he got more than 10 possies. Few other figures for him. In the thirteen finals games he played between 2012-15 he kicked 6 goals in total. Playing almost exclusively as a forward in a very successful team. Less than 0.5 goals a game. Averaged just over 12.5 possessions in those games. Over a career his stats on the whole are less than Blairs despite having played in a much more successful side where as a forward you would believe he would have more chance to kick goals and win possies.

I don't put those figures up to knock Poppy but just to illustrate how an average role player in a very good team can go about his business, do what's expected of him and be seen to have made a valuable contribution. Players like Poppy have roles in the team which are not designed to be big possession winners or scorers. As long as you do your job and the better members of the team perform all goes well. All teams have their Poppy's or Stratton etc. it's when the team as a whole struggles that those guys are seen as less valuable.

As I said above we are not in trouble if Blair or Toovey etc stay in our best 22 next year. If they perform the best they should keep their spot. Likewise if the kids come over the top and take their spots fine. What does matter is our better players develop and improve the output of the team as a whole.

You can have all the players in the world you'll hate me saying his but unless you have a coach like Alistair Clarkson we are going no where.