Marriage equality debate - The plebiscite is on its way. (Cont in Pt 3)

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Anyone else seeing how often the BF drongos bring up "mental illness" around this issue? And not in the daft way Farm Boy was doing above where he suggested he cared so much about suicide he wasn't going to care about suicide. I think it's the alt-right go-to argument in the US when trans or bathrooms are discussed, rather than an argument tactic from the No campaign here.

The No arguments seem to be:
  • don't re-define marriage
  • they re-define marriage to be about raising children
  • they pretend the vote is about 20 things that aren't gay marriage (incl sex education, so they can again refer to having children).
 
DemonTim said:
I'm now questioning this though. Since the source for 14x is
Commonwealth Department of Health and Aged Care (2000); Suicide Prevention Australia (2009)
Click to expand...

Suicide Prevention Australia (2009) is quoting Bagley. The guy who later who pleaded guilty to 16 charges of making indecent images of young boys.

His research that was 'originally designed as a community mental health study focusing on long-term sequels of physical, emotional, and sexual abuse in childhood'. You reckon this guy might have some issues that would affect his objectivity?

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2004/apr/01/highereducation.uk

DemonTim said:
Here's another source for youth
  • 16% of LGBTI[2] young people aged 16 to 27 reported that they had attempted suicide[iv]
  • 35% of Transgender people aged 18 and over[3] have attempted suicide in their lifetime[v]
  • 19% of people with an Intersex variation aged 16 and over had attempted suicide on the basis of issues related their Intersex status
  • 8% of Same-Gender Attracted and Gender Diverse young people between 14 and 21 years had attempted suicide, 18% had experienced verbal abuse, and 37% of those who experienced physical abuse[vii]
Statistics for General Population
  • 3.2% of people (4.4% females; 2.1% males) aged 16 and over have attempted suicide in their lifetime; 0.4% of general population (0.5% females; 0.3% males) in the last 12 months[viii]
  • 1.1% of people (1.7% females; 0.5% males) aged 16 to 24 have attempted suicide in the past 12 months[ix]
Click to expand...

I looked at the first link and it's typical of other sources I have looked at. Robinson, K.H., Bansel, P., Denson, N., Ovenden, G. & Davies, C. (2014).

It's presented as though it's a scientific paper but it's really not. It's short on detail generally (no scientific rigour) but specifically they don't give much detail on how the participants were selected, what attempts were made to ensure the participants were representative of the population it was investigating and what 'cleansing' the researchers the data applied to the completed surveys. If there were a focus on discrimination by the recruiters it may have resulted in wider participation by persons who had suffered negative life experiences.

On the attempted suicide figures you are comparing lifetime figures against last 12 months. Also, the research shows there is a big gap between genuine suicide attempts and completed suicide. For example, adolescents, who form a significant part of the at risk group in the survey, make over 100 attempts for every suicide death. The elderly have only four attempts for every completed suicide.
 

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Showbags said:
How did it have flaws?
Click to expand...

Apart from the lead researcher later pleading guilty to 16 charges of making indecent images of young boys...

- it was a Canadian study whereas the BeyondBlue quote made a claim for same-sex attracted Australians
- it was from 1997. A lot has changed politically and socially since then
- it had a small sample size. For example, the conclusion that the highest risk of self harm was celibate homosexual males was based on 6 of 13 individuals
- it ignored some findings that might have been relevant eg the 2nd highest risk of self-harm was celibate heterosexual males
 
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2004/apr/02/highereducation.uk1

A judge today cleared a world authority on child abuse of downloading child pornography from the internet for his own sexual gratification.

Judge John Selwood described Professor Christopher Bagley as "naive" for accessing the indecent images without seeking legal advice or consulting colleagues.

He ruled that the professor had viewed the images for research purposes and not for his own sexual needs.

Judge Selwood sentenced Bagley, who had pleaded guilty to 16 charges of making indecent images of children, to a three-year conditional discharge.
 
sorted said:
Suicide Prevention Australia (2009) is quoting Bagley. The guy who later who pleaded guilty to 16 charges of making indecent images of young boys.

His research that was 'originally designed as a community mental health study focusing on long-term sequels of physical, emotional, and sexual abuse in childhood'. You reckon this guy might have some issues that would affect his objectivity?

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2004/apr/01/highereducation.uk



I looked at the first link and it's typical of other sources I have looked at. Robinson, K.H., Bansel, P., Denson, N., Ovenden, G. & Davies, C. (2014).

It's presented as though it's a scientific paper but it's really not. It's short on detail generally (no scientific rigour) but specifically they don't give much detail on how the participants were selected, what attempts were made to ensure the participants were representative of the population it was investigating and what 'cleansing' the researchers the data applied to the completed surveys. If there were a focus on discrimination by the recruiters it may have resulted in wider participation by persons who had suffered negative life experiences.

On the attempted suicide figures you are comparing lifetime figures against last 12 months. Also, the research shows there is a big gap between genuine suicide attempts and completed suicide. For example, adolescents, who form a significant part of the at risk group in the survey, make over 100 attempts for every suicide death. The elderly have only four attempts for every completed suicide.
Click to expand...
What about the 2000 data?

Although you just seem to want to focus on the researcher, and thanks to Maggie we now have the actual facts of the case. Seems you want to discredit him without fact based on something not relevant.

You keep saying "beyondblue" but I've only given two of their numerous references. Those two references were for one line in the document. There's around 15 references for suicide amongst LGBTI, are you claiming they're all so flawed that they actually provide the opposite of factual data?

Do you have any data to show it's not the case?
 
It's kinda amusing being at a stage where people are arguing that they only attempted suicide, as if it's some case for their stance as no.

I'd think any reasonable human being would be worried about high numbers of attempts in a particular group
 
Power Raid said:
Time to include government and religious organisations with anti discrimination acts.

They have to be held accountable
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The Churches have form. About 2000 years of brutal domination of society, brutal treatment of those who disagree, brutal treatment of women, brutal treatment of little girls & boys, a brutal approach to making money, and very very little contrition for any of this 'evil' behaviour over the generations.

Accountable? They believe everyone is accountable to them & their efforts to dominate & dictate to us.

What is 'Evil'? Its not us.
 
Their contempt for homosexuality is palpable in every word they utter some of these No people. They are determined to make this a referendum on the morality of homosexuality.

Many of the same people popping their head up now made the same arguments in the 90's about decriminalising homosexuality, how it would lead to the destruction of society etc etc.

Then they have the gall to come out and say how gays currently have equal rights (which they always supported ofcourse) but marriage is a bridge too far.

And they then take offence at being called bigots despite their entire history on the issue being opposed to gay rights.
 
Showbags said:
Their contempt for homosexuality is palpable in every word they utter some of these No people. They are determined to make this a referendum on the morality of homosexuality.

Many of the same people popping their head up now made the same arguments in the 90's about decriminalising homosexuality, how it would lead to the destruction of society etc etc.

Then they have the gall to come out and say how gays currently have equal rights (which they always supported ofcourse) but marriage is a bridge too far.

And they then take offence at being called bigots despite their entire history on the issue being opposed to gay rights.
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Same ones that saw AIDS as a punishment from god in the 80s, and who only acted on it when the virus got in the blood supply and started killing the breeders.
 

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Kidd Vicious said:
Yep. They want to have their bigoted opinions, but don't want others to have the right to point out their opinions are bigoted.

Pretty soon, their opinions will count for **** all so it's a moot point.
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And then they claim anyone calling them a bigot is a bigot, not understanding the stupidity of their reasoning, and that if their reasoning is correct, then they are a bigot for calling you a bigot for calling them a bigot.

They think it's some trump card "oh you called me a bigot. You're a bigot for that!"
 
DemonTim said:
And then they claim anyone calling them a bigot is a bigot, not understanding the stupidity of their reasoning, and that if their reasoning is correct, then they are a bigot for calling you a bigot for calling them a bigot.

They think it's some trump card "oh you called me a bigot. You're a bigot for that!"
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And posters who advocate actual policies used by fascists calling others fascist for banning them from an online football forum thread.
 
Holy trinity church in port Melbourne has a yes message up out the front. Very good to see.
 
Just on polling - has this country's pollsters ever had to predict or take into account that voting is optional?

This must be a hard thing for foreign pollsters to try and determine. Its effectively 2 questions - will you vote, how will you vote

Guess a postal vote over a period of time takes out of the equation the impact of bad weather on a specific polling day. Doesnt though address the cant be bothered factor
 
In a recent poll in England of British Muslims,50% believed that homosexuality should be criminalised.
I wonder if this % is similar here Aus?
Religious freedom and their freedom of speech argument=bigotry
Plain and simple!
 
Gavin Excell said:
Just on polling - has this country's pollsters ever had to predict or take into account that voting is optional?

This must be a hard thing for foreign pollsters to try and determine. Its effectively 2 questions - will you vote, how will you vote

Guess a postal vote over a period of time takes out of the equation the impact of bad weather on a specific polling day. Doesnt though address the cant be bothered factor
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They are well aware of it as an issue. It's one reason why predictions of Australia having a Brexit/Trump moment are wide of the mark. Making everyone vote gives you a more reasonable indication of what would be good for everyone. The centre tends to win out. Compulsory voting is great.

The pollies are well aware of this too, which is why some selfish types advocate for removing compulsory voting, and indeed it's why you have people who were against SSM who are advocating the postal vote. They know it's a highly flawed idea, but think it gives them a better chance of reducing the yes vote.
chelseacarlton said:
In a recent poll in England of British Muslims,50% believed that homosexuality should be criminalised.
I wonder if this % is similar here Aus?
Religious freedom and their freedom of speech argument=bigotry
Plain and simple!
Click to expand...
That wasn't a recent poll, and you shouldn't be surprised to find out religious people are the main ones who would back a No vote. Ever heard of Fred Nile?
 
madmug said:
The Churches have form. About 2000 years of brutal domination of society, brutal treatment of those who disagree, brutal treatment of women, brutal treatment of little girls & boys, a brutal approach to making money, and very very little contrition for any of this 'evil' behaviour over the generations.

Accountable? They believe everyone is accountable to them & their efforts to dominate & dictate to us.

What is 'Evil'? Its not us.
Click to expand...

I love the community aspect of religion but the real truth is religion has brought more harm than good.

But what a wonderful tool, through history, for the powerful to mobilise the peasants.
 
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