Does Geelong need to implement a youth policy?

[Selfield]

Folks calling for us to implement a youth policy have been doing so since 2010. We didn't do so then and we won't do so now. Why would we when the alternative is to keep fielding the strongest team we can week in, week out and continue being a perennial premiership contender?

 

[uranium_death]

Folks calling for us to implement a youth policy have been doing so since 2010. We didn't do so then and we won't do so now. Why would we when the alternative is to keep fielding the strongest team we can week in, week out and continue being a perennial premiership contender?

Because they aren't a contender now. The Selwood-Dangerfield combination is absolutely inferior to other midfield combinations. The forward line is ageing rapidly, and the team's depth is questionable

Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, but we need more quality players in the 21-26 age bracket. The folly of pulling in mature-aged players has cost too much money, and stalled development

Jeremy Cameron will not prove to be the difference, as losing Franklin did not curtail Hawthorn's success

 

[Sky]

Sensational 11 year bump of this thread.
Great reading all these comments from 2010, with the knowledge that Geelong won the 2011 flag.

I know we haven’t won s**t since then but to think we missed finals once in that time losing god knows how many prelims. Incredible really

 

[WillHayward]

Folks calling for us to implement a youth policy have been doing so since 2010. We didn't do so then and we won't do so now. Why would we when the alternative is to keep fielding the strongest team we can week in, week out and continue being a perennial premiership contender?

Awesome bump.

But also sums up the issue.

Geelong have been so good (no doubt) that the current attitude means fans and decision makers believe they are somehow immune from the reality of the way the AFL system is designed.

Sooner or later the system catches up.
Believing you are some kind of "special" case leads to terrible decisions

And don't worry. Reality bites sooner or later

 

[Shadow89]

Awesome bump.

But also sums up the issue.

Geelong have been so good (no doubt) that the current attitude means fans and decision makers believe they are somehow immune from the reality of the way the AFL system is designed.

Sooner or later the system catches up.
Believing you are some kind of "special" case leads to terrible decisions

And don't worry. Reality bites sooner or later

Lol, maybe if we were handed 500 draft concessions, we might be able to go that 'youth policy' like you guys have - and bounce right back into the Top 8 again. Sadly, the AFL doesn't hand us Top 5 draft picks every year.

I'm sure any team could bounce back fast if they had these selections:

Pick 3 Mills (Academy) using a bunch of nothing draft picks
Pick 17 Heeney (Academy) using a bunch of nothing draft picks
Pick 5 Braeden Campbell (using a bunch of nothing draft picks AND getting Logan McDonald by getting ahead of your bid - so still being able to use Pick 4 rather than choosing one or the other
Pick 5 Nick Blakey (Academy) using a bunch of nothing draft picks
Pick 32 Gulden (Academy) using a bunch of nothing draft picks

See a pattern there? Not many clubs could just collect a bunch of junk for points, and then use it to trade all the way up the order like you guys consistently do. Reality only seems to 'bite' those who don't get a sh*t ton of handouts because the AFL can't afford for them to fail in their war against the NRL in its home state. We don't even get NGA selections most years - as most players we do develop in our region, end up moving to the city and leaving our 'zone' (see Jamarra Ugle Hagan).

I'll take a lot of arguments surrounding our list from a lot of other clubs, but from a Sydney poster to argue that the 'system catches up' when you're pretty much f*cking handed top draft pick after top draft pick no matter where you finish - is an abject joke.

Spare me your sanctimonious BS. Seriously.

 

[uranium_death]

Being an 'elite' team means winning premierships. Making finals is merely qualifying and if we're THAT good, as the club seemingly believes it is, the standard is winning Grand Finals. That's it

Making the finals is merely a participation award. With the number of chances Geelong has had, the outcome is unsatisfactory.

Sydney has a distinct (and depending on your outlook, unfair) advantage with their AFL-approved academy system, but Geelong has to work with what they've got - exactly as Richmond and Melbourne have. Pulling in football geriatrics like Josh Jenkins

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Josh Jenkins

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1.2

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and Higgins is a big, fat failure on the recruiters' behalf
Melbourne have built their list up from the bottom. Geelong did it very well in the early 2000s and it laid a beautiful foundation
I feel the recruiting has become lazy for too long. Free agency is also a blight

Scott's record of winning X/Y Home and Away games is irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. The asterisk will always be, "for one premiership"

Geelong have had it good, yes, but it will only result in longer-term pain. I'd rather go down for a bit, rebuild and have a realistic crack, rather than squeeze diamonds from carcasses

 

[PhatBoy]

Being an 'elite' team means winning premierships. Making finals is merely qualifying and if we're THAT good, as the club seemingly believes it is, the standard is winning Grand Finals. That's it

Making the finals is merely a participation award. With the number of chances Geelong has had, the outcome is unsatisfactory.

Sydney has a distinct (and depending on your outlook, unfair) advantage with their AFL-approved academy system, but Geelong has to work with what they've got - exactly as Richmond and Melbourne have. Pulling in football geriatrics like Josh Jenkins and Higgins is a big, fat failure on the recruiters' behalf
Melbourne have built their list up from the bottom. Geelong did it very well in the early 2000s and it laid a beautiful foundation
I feel the recruiting has become lazy for too long. Free agency is also a blight

Scott's record of winning X/Y Home and Away games is irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. The asterisk will always be, "for one premiership"

Geelong have had it good, yes, but it will only result in longer-term pain. I'd rather go down for a bit, rebuild and have a realistic crack, rather than squeeze diamonds from carcasses

Higgins yes, Jenkins I didn’t and don’t have a problem with. Every side needs depth and back up if something goes pear shaped, Jenkins was insurance and it didn’t set us back as far as I’m concerned

 

[Xtreme]

Folks calling for us to implement a youth policy have been doing so since 2010. We didn't do so then and we won't do so now. Why would we when the alternative is to keep fielding the strongest team we can week in, week out and continue being a perennial premiership contender?

If you don't start blooding youth in the side. Once Selwood retires you'll be left with Zach Gutherie to inspire the team!

 

[master bate]

Sydney has a distinct (and depending on your outlook, unfair) advantage with their AFL-approved academy system, but Geelong has to work with what they've got

It’s not as good as Sydney’s but Geelong have a distinct and unfair advantage too. 2 big ones actually:

1. 8 home games at unique home stadium, whilst still having an easy commute for plenty of neutral games.

2. A big recruiting advantage by having standalone access to a football rich region that perfectly suits the lifestyle and financial position of so many afl players. The Cats 4 best players are:

Danger - came home to surf
Cameron - came home to fish
Stewart - got developed through the local league and VFL team that the Cats have so much direct insight too
Hawkins - father son who bought a hobby farm!

I’d also argue the cats have far better access to the Falcons than any non academy team does to a junior side. They can watch them train, watch their school footy, know their teachers, know their parents. Same goes for local footy and the VFL. That’s only a small advantage but it adds up.

Now you can argue whether the Cats have over used part 2 and lumped themselves with too many Higgins, Rohan, Dahlhaus types for the time being. But if the Cats do aggressively rebuild then they can pause their repatriation plans for a few years and go youth before likely starting it right back up again!

Everyone talks about how the Cats have broken the afl system that should crash them right out of the 8. The answer is partly a lot of good coaching and some great mature age drafting. But it’s also access to keep signing players keen on the local lifestyle.

 

[PhatBoy]

It’s not as good as Sydney’s but Geelong have a distinct and unfair advantage too. 2 big ones actually:

1. 8 home games at unique home stadium, whilst still having an easy commute for plenty of neutral games.

2. A big recruiting advantage by having standalone access to a football rich region that perfectly suits the lifestyle and financial position of so many afl players. The Cats 4 best players are:

Danger - came home to surf
Cameron - came home to fish
Stewart - got developed through the local league and VFL team that the Cats have so much direct insight too
Hawkins - father son who bought a hobby farm!

I’d also argue the cats have far better access to the Falcons than any non academy team does to a junior side. They can watch them train, watch their school footy, know their teachers, know their parents. Same goes for local footy and the VFL. That’s only a small advantage but it adds up.

Now you can argue whether the Cats have over used part 2 and lumped themselves with too many Higgins, Rohan, Dahlhaus types for the time being. But if the Cats do aggressively rebuild then they can pause their repatriation plans for a few years and go youth before likely starting it right back up again!

Everyone talks about how the Cats have broken the afl system that should crash them right out of the 8. The answer is partly a lot of good coaching and some great mature age drafting. But it’s also access to keep signing players keen on the local lifestyle.

As opposed to 11 home games at a unique ground. Thanks.

 

[uranium_death]

It’s not as good as Sydney’s but Geelong have a distinct and unfair advantage too. 2 big ones actually:

1. 8 home games at unique home stadium, whilst still having an easy commute for plenty of neutral games.

2. A big recruiting advantage by having standalone access to a football rich region that perfectly suits the lifestyle and financial position of so many afl players. The Cats 4 best players are:

Danger - came home to surf
Cameron - came home to fish
Stewart - got developed through the local league and VFL team that the Cats have so much direct insight too
Hawkins - father son who bought a hobby farm!

I’d also argue the cats have far better access to the Falcons than any non academy team does to a junior side. They can watch them train, watch their school footy, know their teachers, know their parents. Same goes for local footy and the VFL. That’s only a small advantage but it adds up.

Now you can argue whether the Cats have over used part 2 and lumped themselves with too many Higgins, Rohan, Dahlhaus types for the time being. But if the Cats do aggressively rebuild then they can pause their repatriation plans for a few years and go youth before likely starting it right back up again!

Everyone talks about how the Cats have broken the afl system that should crash them right out of the 8. The answer is partly a lot of good coaching and some great mature age drafting. But it’s also access to keep signing players keen on the local lifestyle.

Some points are valid, but the best Falcons talent is never hidden. Luke Hodge and Jonathan Brown would have been really, really handy to have at Geelong
We don't necessarily have a set advantage there. Scouting is too advanced to get too many diamonds in the rough

Our geographic location is not an absolute advantage. Unless you're from the western district of Victoria, you probably won't want to go to Geelong
Tom Stewart has been awesome to pick up from the VFL, but every club has similar stories, plus the same opportunities to do so.

The issue here is that Geelong's actual recruiting system is too heavily skewed on mature-aged players. It will eventually hurt.
We can't win a Grand Final at KP. Yes, the stadium is a handy advantage, but the SCG is still a hard ground to win at when Sydney are strong. I think Sydney are a strong travelling team. Have been for a long time.

I'm not interested in floating in the top 8 and not winning flags. The competition is always very tight, relatively.

 

[Toump Ass]

Lol, maybe if we were handed 500 draft concessions, we might be able to go that 'youth policy' like you guys have - and bounce right back into the Top 8 again. Sadly, the AFL doesn't hand us Top 5 draft picks every year.

Stop havin' a big sook.

Cats have had PLENTY of luck with father son picks, and Free Agency acquisitions thanks to nice property deals on their coastal homes from wealthy Corio Bay benefactors.

 

[juss]

Folks calling for us to implement a youth policy have been doing so since 2010. We didn't do so then and we won't do so now. Why would we when the alternative is to keep fielding the strongest team we can week in, week out and continue being a perennial premiership contender?

The Cats aren't really contenders though, they are perennial also rans. The list is good enough with all it's experience to consistently make finals, but not since the dynasty has it been good enough to really be a flag contender.

I mean, look at the Cats board for any of the last 5 years and you'll see constant acknowledgement that the list and coach isn't good enough come finals, this isn't new.

The question is, is it better to bottom out and be s**t for a while, then rise to win flags and fall again?
Or be constant also rans like Geelong, never going to win a flag with this plan, but always be a good side that makes and wins a few finals?

I guarantee you the 2022 Geelong team won't win the flag either, and the cycle continues, especially if they go and add a couple more 30 year olds with a couple of good years left at the end of the year again.

 

[master bate]

Some points are valid, but the best Falcons talent is never hidden. Luke Hodge and Jonathan Brown would have been really, really handy to have at Geelong
We don't necessarily have a set advantage there. Scouting is too advanced to get too many diamonds in the rough

Our geographic location is not an absolute advantage. Unless you're from the western district of Victoria, you probably won't want to go to Geelong
Tom Stewart has been awesome to pick up from the VFL, but every club has similar stories, plus the same opportunities to do so.

Obviously you can’t hide top picks but I’d say Jack Henry is the perfect example of an athletic late bloomer who the Cats had the inside track on.

There’s a consistent stream of players wanting to go to the Cats because it’s not Melbourne and very few leaving because it’s close enough to Melbourne. That’s an advantage.

Obviously every club in the footy states can get state league players but the pathway from local footy to the state league is a mess in Melbourne. Guys turn down chances for cash or because the commute is a nightmare, plus there’s 9 afl teams and standalone VFL sides chasing talent. It’s only a small advantage but it’s definitely easier for a local footballer in Geelong to be scouted and have a run for the Cats VFL side. It’s not formal but it is a clear pathway for juniors to go in to a strong suburban league (with well connected and good coaches) then up to the VFL side. As an aside the AFL as a whole would actually be better if guys in Melbourne did something similar but they often get lost after juniors.

 

[Blackhawk42]

I do wonder how Geelong would look right now if Higgins, Dalhaus and Henderson in particular hadn't been played last season but Clark, Constable, Narkle and Fort were given ownership of a position for 22 games. They still would have played finals and potentially developed some young players at the top level.

Instead now the age demo looks rough and 3 if the players I mentioned are at different clubs.

 

[uranium_death]

Stop havin' a big sook.

Cats have had PLENTY of luck with father son picks, and Free Agency acquisitions thanks to nice property deals on their coastal homes from wealthy Corio Bay benefactors.

No decent father-sons for a long, long time...
For all the decent, David Clarke Jnr, Tim Callan and Marc Woolnough didn't work out at all
Scarlett and Ablett were absolutely elite
Hawkins has been very good

Mark Blake and Nathan Ablett were only just there. Nathan had talent but wasted, and Blake was limited.
Jed Bews isn't the equal of his father. Sam Simpson needs to string a few together still...

The Free Agency has not been half as lucrative for Geelong as others. No flags, and some are so far past their best, the club should be lauded for recruiting retirees

 

[master bate]

As opposed to 11 home games at a unique ground. Thanks.

Sydney and Brisbane are the only teams getting that, plus the WA and SA sides get 10 and 2 neutral games.

And the trade off is they get on flights 10 times a year for proper away games.

Their wouldn’t be a team in the league that wouldn’t prefer the Cats split of home, neutral games (especially at the G) and true away games.

 

[PhatBoy]

Sydney and Brisbane are the only teams getting that, plus the WA and SA sides get 10 and 2 neutral games.

And the trade off is they get on flights 10 times a year for proper away games.

Their wouldn’t be a team in the league that wouldn’t prefer the Cats split of home, neutral games (especially at the G) and true away games.

I reckon there’d be plenty pretty happy with barely leaving Melbourne. And playing finals at home

 

[master bate]

I do wonder how Geelong would look right now if Higgins, Dalhaus and Henderson in particular hadn't been played last season but Clark, Constable, Narkle and Fort were given ownership of a position for 22 games. They still would have played finals and potentially developed some young players at the top level.

Instead now the age demo looks rough and 3 if the players I mentioned are at different clubs.

No difference for Narkle and Constable, they are fringe afl players. Fort looks equal or better to Stanley but not enough to move the needle and the Cats struggle to fit 2 rucks with their big key forwards. And he’s 28. Esava has been preferred for a reason - pressure ability.

Clark was a stuff up but you can’t axe an assistant coach who won’t play him mid year. But by trading him for a pick they actually get younger when they call time on this era. It’s just a matter of whether they picked the right replacement.

Scott has stuck with Parfitt, Henry and Miers from early on. He was rightly sticking with Holmes pre injury. Stengle likely has a spot. He seems to be sticking with SDK down back which is a good sign, he’s getting better. It will be interesting to see if Cooper Stephens can hold Holmes’ spot for an extended period.

When they’ve had good young players Scott sticks with them. When they’re borderline he yo-yos them in and out. Maybe that hurts development, maybe they just aren’t good.

 

[Toump Ass]

No decent father-sons for a long, long time...

Much easier trading in elite players when you can offer success and Ablett, Hawkins and Scarlett certainly helped you achieve success.

The Free Agency has not been half as lucrative for Geelong as others. No flags, and some are so far past their best, the club should be lauded for recruiting retirees

Dangerfield and Cameron were both Free Agents when they joined you.
Dangerfield was one of the best players in the league and came at a bargain price. Smith was a great get. You paid a fair price for Cameron though he's a bit of a "down the hill skiier".

You've done better out of Free Agency than the vast majority of clubs.

 

[Walshawk]

The Cats made the same mistake Clarkson did - thinking that a couple a star top ups would win a flag. Difference is, Cats have been doing that for much longer. Their 'success' over the past decade will be long forgotten in a couple of years once the return to the bottom half of the ladder. The Scott years post 2011 will be viewed as a failure.
I find it funny that clubs that have not won a flag recently hold up Cats and Swans as teams they want to emulate. They want to make the finals every year. They think that is what makes fans happy. 99% of fans would swap the Dogs one flag for the Cats or Swans last decade of finals but no flag. Surely Tigers/WC/Hawks/Dees/Dogs are the recent clubs you want to emulate.
I heard Sam MItchell talk about this recently 'we are not interested in making finals every year unless we have a game style that is going to win it'
Cats are in for a world of pain. Their shiny new 40K stadium will be half empty in 2024 - 2029 while they rebuild via the draft

 

[PhatBoy]

The Cats made the same mistake Clarkson did - thinking that a couple a star top ups would win a flag. Difference is, Cats have been doing that for much longer. Their 'success' over the past decade will be long forgotten in a couple of years once the return to the bottom half of the ladder. The Scott years post 2011 will be viewed as a failure.
I find it funny that clubs that have not won a flag recently hold up Cats and Swans as teams they want to emulate. They want to make the finals every year. They think that is what makes fans happy. 99% of fans would swap the Dogs one flag for the Cats or Swans last decade of finals but no flag. Surely Tigers/WC/Hawks/Dees/Dogs are the recent clubs you want to emulate.
I heard Sam MItchell talk about this recently 'we are not interested in making finals every year unless we have a game style that is going to win it'
Cats are in for a world of pain. Their shiny new 40K stadium will be half empty in 2024 - 2029 while they rebuild via the draft

So we keep hearing except we won’t be ‘returning’ to the bottom half of the ladder because as a general rule for 30 years we’ve avoided that across multiple generations. If it happens it happens - the past doesn’t dictate the future - but why we are in for any more pain than most other clubs is a mystery.

Every club goes through it, some handle it well - west coast, Sydney, Adelaide for much of their history, others don’t. Just because our ‘end’ is coming later doesn’t mean it’s going to be any worse than the end of any other contending team and why people think that is the case is mind boggling.

Equally, the notion that there is this one team camped down on the surf coast who thinks that every year is an EPL season and we just want to make the top 4 and get a Champions League berth is so f***ing stupid it’s not funny.

Just because a team hasn’t won a flag doesn’t mean they haven’t been trying. Would we bring veterans and free agents in to try and stay put?

We have a coach who was one of the most ruthless win at all costs players in a team who WAS the most ruthless win at all costs side of the AFL era. We have a captain who has made a art form of putting his body on the line to try and win.

If you’re actually stupid enough to think it has been a case of ‘just trying to make finals’ you’re as thick as a pigshit McFlurry.

Failure doesn’t equal no attempt.

 

[Elmer_Judd]

Need a new coach for this to start happening i would suggest.

Chris Scott

Chris Scott

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doesn't seem to have the insight to courage to start a proper rebuild/list refresh at Geelong

 

[PhatBoy]

Need a new coach for this to start happening i would suggest.

Chris Scott doesn't seem to have the insight to courage to start a proper rebuild/list refresh at Geelong

Based on what, the courage it has taken to try and beat the system a decade after people were already starting to whisper that we were too old?

F***en hell this makes me laugh

 

[NinjaSwan]

Some of the criticism of Geelong is way over the top, yes in hindsight you could say it was a failure because they failed to win a flag but they absolutely were good enough to win one in 2019/2020 at the least, they just happened to run into a dominant Richmond team in finals both years (who they had decent HT leads against both years but got overran in the last quarters).

Personally I think it's a credit to them that they've gone against conventional list management yet missed the finals just once in 15 years and only had one top 10 draft pick (Nakia Cockatoo

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Nakia Cockatoo

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6.1

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0.7

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6.6

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3.4

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3.2

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2.2

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2.4

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who hardly played for them) in that time.

If they bottomed out years ago there's no guarantee they'd be any good now or in a better position to contend for a premiership, plenty of teams do this and fail, and people would instead be criticising them for wasting the primes of Hawkins, Duncan, Selwood, Dangerfield, Stewart etc