Society/Culture Violence in Society; Who is to blame?

[Max zero]

Am I supposed to feel like a man isn't the protector in a relationship?

Isn't that a traditional gender role?

 

[Taylor]

Isn't that a traditional gender role?

No more than a heavily pregnant woman being vulnerable.

 

[Max zero]

No more than a heavily pregnant woman being vulnerable.

Do men have an obligation to protect women?

 

[Taylor]

There is no obligation to protect women.

There is a biological requirement for a man to protect and provide for his woman though at certain times.

 

[Max zero]

There is no obligation to protect women.

There is a biological requirement for a man to protect and provide for his woman though at certain times.

Is that such an important issue now that government can fulfill the same role?

 

[Taylor]

Is that such an important issue now that government can fulfill the same role?

You mean "The Man"?
Haha

It's not about money.

 

[Max zero]

You mean "The Man"?
Haha

It's not about money.

Well what is it about?

 

[Taylor]

Well what is it about?

Protection and providing when his woman is eight months deep in baby factory mode.

 

[Max zero]

Protection and providing when his woman is eight months deep in baby factory mode.

Again why can't the government do all this? What protection and providing can men provide that the government can't?

Plenty of children seem to be this arrangement at the moment.

 

[slicedndiced]

Meh, just put all teh babbies into an orphanage and be done with it.

Parenting is so over-rated.

 

[tesseract]

Are they not allowed to defend their position at least as passionately as you do yours?

Or is it because they are wrong?

Of course they're allowed to defend their position. I never said or implied otherwise.

 

[tesseract]

There are still places on the planet where I wouldn't be allowed to speak openly like this, dress how I want or otherwise express myself in any way.

Women are aware that our newfound fair go is against the history so far for our species and that our way of life is worth fighting for.

What I was saying, since I have to be extremely pointed for you to understand, is that if we give up any inch of what we have gained for all of the 0.000001% we have had it in human existence we might slip back and that isn't acceptable.

Personally I don't think men are required to lose anything for women to maintain or improve. We won't want to go back to being seen and not heard and I don't think modern man wants that either.

As Max zero stated, you don't live in a place that doesn't allow you to speak openly and freely. Hence your point here has no relevance.

You make the unfounded claim that women being allowed to have an opinion is "newfound" (sic). Has anyone ITT actually said that women shouldn't be allowed to express their opinion? No! So, why have you even raised the issue? I suspect you're playing the typical feminist victim card in an attempt to elicit sympathy for your position.

So, with feminism/feminists not willing to give an inch, as well as their being male disadvantage too, feminism therefore can't stand for equality, for it isn't going to budge an inch and take into consideration the needs of both genders. Therefore, feminism stands for female superiority at the expense of males. Btw, your hyperbole is utterly extreme.

I've already stated earlier ITT that equality isn't a zero sum game. Men have certain disadvantages where women actually have it better than them. This is ignored by feminism, even though they claim to stand for equality. Attempts by men to have their concerns heard by way of a male rights movement are hypocritically attacked by the female movement called feminism. Instead of working for equality, feminism focuses solely on the female gender and making things worse for men with lobbying for changes to laws which adversely affect men. So, if you "Personally don't think men are required to lose anything for women to maintain or improve", why are feminists actively seeking to get laws changed, for one example, to disadvantage men? Men are losing something when feminists undertake such action.

Where in the western world have women not been heard? If you go back too far, that would invalidate feminism, for feminism becomes irrelevant if they want to fight, in our time, the occurrences of the distant past but which are no longer the case.

 

[Taylor]

I guess it's easy for you to dismiss all my points as irrelevant when they don't fit yours, you want to discuss this very second without me being able to use how we have gotten here to explain why certain groups behave as they do. My own social context isn't created in the nano second before I speak, history is critical.

What changed that allowed women to have opinions in public? Was it women fighting for it or did men decide it wasn't right that their wives were kept quietly in the corner? The non western world is male dominated, educated girls are killed, when will their men have the epiphany moment like the western men did? I can't see that happening, women have to fight for it.

That's why they won't give an inch. They only just got it and they only have to look over the back fence to see how bad life would be without it.

You also need to qualify your claims of male disadvantage. I'm not disagreeing with you that there are areas where a man finds it harder than a woman but you have based you're entire argument on it and not backed it up with evidence. That's failing year seven essay stuff.

 

[Kynge of Begrem]

What is it with you have strawmen?

Where have I said I have had no sympathy? I said the primary responsibility lies with the abuser but te victim has to take some themselves. How is my story in anyway a contradiction to that.

Or do you agree with Bushie that it's primarily the victims fault?

As for action you wont even acknowledge there is a problem.

do you know what 'strawman' actually means?

I can see why you are hurting though, in the last couple of days you have outed yourself as a man who feels like hitting women (when they deserve it) believes men with no inclination to rape are 'little angels' and now as a racist (a woman of asian descent married to a man of european descent must be a mail order bride - she must have been plucked from a rice paddy and he couldn't possibly love her for who she is).

Yep Max, you have covered yourself in glory.

 

[Kynge of Begrem]

I guess it's easy for you to dismiss all my points as irrelevant when they don't fit yours, you want to discuss this very second without me being able to use how we have gotten here to explain why certain groups behave as they do. My own social context isn't created in the nano second before I speak, history is critical.

What changed that allowed women to have opinions in public? Was it women fighting for it or did men decide it wasn't right that their wives were kept quietly in the corner? The non western world is male dominated, educated girls are killed, when will their men have the epiphany moment like the western men did? I can't see that happening, women have to fight for it.

That's why they won't give an inch. They only just got it and they only have to look over the back fence to see how bad life would be without it.

You also need to qualify your claims of male disadvantage. I'm not disagreeing with you that there are areas where a man finds it harder than a woman but you have based you're entire argument on it and not backed it up with evidence. That's failing year seven essay stuff.

You have made some very good points in this thread, but there is no point engagin with Tesseract, it is like discussing evolution with a creationist. He is so firmly entrenched in his anti feminist bile that nothing will make him see reason.

 

[Kynge of Begrem]

I don't see feminists fighting for women to become coal miners.

Probably because you don't look. http://www.ausimm.com.au/content/default.aspx?ID=236

 

[TheWoodenSlug]

I have concern for all people.

Just a little less for moaning, "victim", men.

Can I ask why you have less concern for male victims?

If there are two identical situations, except that in situation A, the male is violent towards the female; and in situation B, the female is violent towards the male, why would you have more sympathy for the female victim, and less for the male victim?

 

[Taylor]

Men are the biological warriors, that comes with a stigma that I think other men have put onto yourselves, requiring a greater physical effort.

If I said a woman had beaten up a man his credibility as a man is questioned. I don't think that's particularly sexist but I do see how it could be seen as such.

 

[TheWoodenSlug]

Men are the biological warriors, that comes with a stigma that I think other men have put onto yourselves, requiring a greater physical effort.

If I said a woman had beaten up a man his credibility as a man is questioned. I don't think that's particularly sexist but I do see how it could be seen as such.

I agree, there is definitely a stigma there - and the problem as I see it, is the man is really damned if he does, damned if he doesn't in that situation. He either continues to suffer the violence in silence; or he opens up about it to others which, as you suggested, opens him up to having his credibility or manhood questioned; or he retaliates, which quite often would lead to him being seen/charged as the aggressor, and the female as the victim.

The best option there is clearly to open up to others, whether it is friends, family, professionals etc, but men are far less likely than women (IMO, I don't have any links...) to seek this help, which I think is largely due to the stigma that you outlined above.

That is why comments like the one I initially quoted annoy me, because minimising the effects that male victims can suffer, directly contributes in perpetuating this stigma.

 

[slicedndiced]

Can I ask why you have less concern for male victims?

If there are two identical situations, except that in situation A, the male is violent towards the female; and in situation B, the female is violent towards the male, why would you have more sympathy for the female victim, and less for the male victim?

To be fair, if you read what was dished out to me in regards to my private life and partner choices, it may give you some context.

The poster in question had one fling, with a girl who had psyche issues, and she finally turned on him.

But hey, he stayed with her initially because "the sex was good", despite the warning signs.

There were no kids, no financial ties, no threats on him to stay, just really good bonking.

Let me qualify this by saying, if a woman stayed in a relationship for the same reason and in the same circumstance, my opinion would be unchanged.

Forgive me if, in this instance, I have less sympathy than normal. Sometimes you reap your own whirlwind.

 

[cartwright]

Are you still crying about that? Can you white knight for cartwright any harder? Maybe you grovelled a little harder you wouldn't need to get a bride from overseas?

LOL white knight. I forgot about that one. As to the rest of your post, ....well, being an angry little man, must be exhausting.

 

[cartwright]

I agree, there is definitely a stigma there - and the problem as I see it, is the man is really damned if he does, damned if he doesn't in that situation. He either continues to suffer the violence in silence; or he opens up about it to others which, as you suggested, opens him up to having his credibility or manhood questioned; or he retaliates, which quite often would lead to him being seen/charged as the aggressor, and the female as the victim.

The best option there is clearly to open up to others, whether it is friends, family, professionals etc, but men are far less likely than women (IMO, I don't have any links...) to seek this help, which I think is largely due to the stigma that you outlined above.

That is why comments like the one I initially quoted annoy me, because minimising the effects that male victims can suffer, directly contributes in perpetuating this stigma.

To be fair ~ there is still a stigma regarding male on female violence, and under reporting. In a study I posted somewhere in this thread there were reports that women do not report in fear of losing children, or protecting their partner. Men don't report because of the stigma of credibility etc. Therefore, both genders tend to under report, for different reasons.

 

[Kynge of Begrem]

If I said a woman had beaten up a man his credibility as a man is questioned. I don't think that's particularly sexist but I do see how it could be seen as such.

I disagree. I would view him the same way as a woman who had been beaten up by a man.

 

[Kynge of Begrem]

Again why can't the government do all this? What protection and providing can men provide that the government can't?

One minute you rail against single mothers, next minute you are asking why the government can't fulfil the role of a father. Your inabiltiy to run a consistant argument is breathtaking.

 

[Taylor]

I disagree. I would view him the same way as a woman who had been beaten up by a man.

I respect that.

I have spent my life looking literally up at guys towering over me in various circumstances and watched guys squatting multiples of my body weight so that has influenced my perspective.

As much as my mind and heart tells me I'm a fighter, I'm tough and nobody can beat me my brain is a realist. I'm 5'8 and 60kg. Most men can physically dominate me.

That's my context on that issue.