Society/Culture The seemingly growing anti 'western' sentiment in 'western' societies.

[Dogs_R_Us]

No probs, He didn't live with several groups across the country. He mainly lived with Wathaurung People. It was Aboriginal spiritual beliefs that kept him alive.

You mean so they didn’t kill him…

 

[South of the Yarra]

You mean so they didn’t kill him…

No, it means that he was struggling with dehydration, scrapping for food and they saved him. They gave him crayfish meat and fresh water. He returned to his hut and struggled so much that he would not have made it through the winter. Aboriginal people took him in and saved his life.

 

[Captivating]

Er, no it took about a millisecond of a Google search. Practises like human sacrifice and headhunting predate agrarian civilisation. One of the last remaining hunter gatherer societies, the Sentinelese occupy an island where travel is prohibited, because the kill those who try and make contact.

Sure, there may be LESS evidence, but there’s less evidence of everything. Obviously.

The evidence is clear. Every civilisation has engaged in violent killing of each other. It's a human condition.

 

[Dogs_R_Us]

No, it means that he was struggling with dehydration, scrapping for food and they saved him. They gave him crayfish meat and fresh water. He returned to his hut and struggled so much that he would not have made it through the winter. Aboriginal people took him in and saved his life.

Because they believed he was a recently dead relative who had come back to life. Otherwise they might have killed him, or at least abandoned him.

 

[South of the Yarra]

Because they believed he was a recently dead relative who had come back to life. Otherwise they might have killed him, or at least abandoned him.

Actually incorrect. The first encounters with the Wathaurung people were nothing to do with the spirits. Aboriginals saw he was struggling took him in and invited him to stay. They gave him seafood and water. He decided not to and went back to his hut. He could not survive alone as the winter hit him hard, he then left the hut. It was then that he grabbed the spear and was scene in a spiritual sense. The first encounters were filled with nothing but kindness and warmth. Another Aboriginal myth debunked for you.

 

[Captivating]

Climate change is being solved with renewables and batteries and green hydrogen. How can you say nothing is being done about climate change? Are you not aware of these technologies that are currently being installed and adopted?

that quest for infinite growth you complain about has dramatically lowered poverty rates globally, dramatically increased life expectancy, dramatically reduced the time people spend doing household chores and no doubt been a major driver of dramatic falls in violence rates and dramatic increases in female and minority rights. But hey, lets unwind all of that cos......

Actually it's not being solved at all. Renewables aren't keeping up with the increase in demand of electricity - which will continue to grow across developing countries.

LSS Farms are next to useless - acres of land used for so little energy, and imagine the waste when these are replaced and go into land fill. Some countries have designated solar panels as toxic as they contaminate ground water.

Wind farms are the most hideous things ever. A blight on the landscape. Amazing how we have distinctive areas and landscapes that stop development but it's OK to install a stack of wind turbines on the same areas.

 

[Dogs_R_Us]

Actually incorrect. The first encounters with the Wathaurung people were nothing to do with the spirits. Aboriginals saw he was struggling took him in and invited him to stay. They gave him seafood and water. He decided not to and went back to his hut. He could not survive alone as the winter hit him hard, he then left the hut. It was then that he grabbed the spear and was scene in a spiritual sense. The first encounters were filled with nothing but kindness and warmth. Another Aboriginal myth debunked for you.

No need for the gratuitous sneer.

 

[Captivating]

Actually incorrect. The first encounters with the Wathaurung people were nothing to do with the spirits. Aboriginals saw he was struggling took him in and invited him to stay. They gave him seafood and water. He decided not to and went back to his hut. He could not survive alone as the winter hit him hard, he then left the hut. It was then that he grabbed the spear and was scene in a spiritual sense. The first encounters were filled with nothing but kindness and warmth. Another Aboriginal myth debunked for you.

Seems to be a different interpretation of the following text.

They called me Murrangurk, which I afterwards learnt, was the name of a man formerly belonging to their tribe, who had been buried at the spot where I had found the piece of spear I still carried with me. They have a belief, that when they die, they go to some place or other, and are there made white men, and that they then return to this world again for another existence. They think all the white people previous to death were belonging to their own tribes, thus returned to life in a different colour.

In cases where they have killed white men, it has generally been because they imagined them to have been originally enemies, or belonging to tribes with whom they were hostile.

 

[Blue1980]

Actually it's not being solved at all. Renewables aren't keeping up with the increase in demand of electricity - which will continue to grow across developing countries.

LSS Farms are next to useless - acres of land used for so little energy, and imagine the waste when these are replaced and go into land fill. Some countries have designated solar panels as toxic as they contaminate ground water.

Wind farms are the most hideous things ever. A blight on the landscape. Amazing how we have distinctive areas and landscapes that stop development but it's OK to install a stack of wind turbines on the same areas.

Seeds just loves neo liberalism, free market solves all, until it doesn’t/isnt.

 

[barreness]

Er, no it took about a millisecond of a Google search. Practises like human sacrifice and headhunting predate agrarian civilisation. Homicide is believed to have been relatively common. Of course these things vary between tribes. One of the last remaining hunter gatherer societies, the Sentinelese occupy an island where travel is prohibited, in part because they kill those who try and make contact.

Sure, there may be LESS evidence, but there’s less evidence of everything. Obviously.

Ok maybe I went a bit to far, there was certainly violence but the narrative of brutish short lives is mainly coloniser cope.

Human sacrifice was more a thing with agricultural societies, from an anthropological point of view its about the class structures and maintaining social hierarchies, also blessing the soil and all that jazz. More hierarchical societies do tend to more violence, with some exceptions.
Headhunting, yeh you've got a point, it is used as a trope to make them look savage I'd say. Often cannibalistic things are more ritual/spiritual rather than scarce resources

Sentinelese go up and down with the friendliness, probably something to do with the disease that was spread by outsiders. Don't think there's much to suggest internal violence is of note. I've got no sympathy for that missionary bloke.

The Pinker view of lowering rates of violence over time/history has a lot of holes and extrapolations from incomplete data. A few violent interactions between tribes is nothing on the scale of say the Punic wars or WW1. Lack of evidence isn't evidence for the contrary, preconceived notions colour a lot of these things. The previous study you linked had 288 partial or full individuals for 10k years of history, not exactly statistically relevant and ignores the reasons why these remains were specifically preserved more than an average individuals

 

[South of the Yarra]

Seems to be a different interpretation of the following text.

They called me Murrangurk, which I afterwards learnt, was the name of a man formerly belonging to their tribe, who had been buried at the spot where I had found the piece of spear I still carried with me. They have a belief, that when they die, they go to some place or other, and are there made white men, and that they then return to this world again for another existence. They think all the white people previous to death were belonging to their own tribes, thus returned to life in a different colour.

In cases where they have killed white men, it has generally been because they imagined them to have been originally enemies, or belonging to tribes with whom they were hostile.

No different interpretation at all. You are referring to the second encounter which I referred to being the Aboriginal spirituality above. You might want to check out the first encounter which is as I showed you above.

 

[South of the Yarra]

No need for the gratuitous sneer.

No sneer at all. Aboriginal people have been at the centre of horrific misconceptions all their lives.

 

[mcnulty]

Ok maybe I went a bit to far, there was certainly violence but the narrative of brutish short lives is mainly coloniser cope.

Human sacrifice was more a thing with agricultural societies, from an anthropological point of view its about the class structures and maintaining social hierarchies, also blessing the soil and all that jazz. More hierarchical societies do tend to more violence, with some exceptions.
Headhunting, yeh you've got a point, it is used as a trope to make them look savage I'd say. Often cannibalistic things are more ritual/spiritual rather than scarce resources

Sentinelese go up and down with the friendliness, probably something to do with the disease that was spread by outsiders. Don't think there's much to suggest internal violence is of note. I've got no sympathy for that missionary bloke.

The Pinker view of lowering rates of violence over time/history has a lot of holes and extrapolations from incomplete data. A few violent interactions between tribes is nothing on the scale of say the Punic wars or WW1. Lack of evidence isn't evidence for the contrary, preconceived notions colour a lot of these things. The previous study you linked had 288 partial or full individuals for 10k years of history, not exactly statistically relevant and ignores the reasons why these remains were specifically preserved more than an average individuals

Why would colonisers need cope? As I said there limited evidence, but archaeological evidence suggests certain hunter gatherer societies were extremely violent, and generally far more violent than modern societies.

“We see that the levels of violence in prehistoric times and in non-state societies differ widely between societies. But on average they tend to be significantly higher than in modern state societies and the world today.”

Data review: ethnographic and archaeological evidence on violent deaths

What quantitative data is there about violent deaths in non-state societies?

ourworldindata.org

 

[Seeds]

Actually it's not being solved at all. Renewables aren't keeping up with the increase in demand of electricity - which will continue to grow across developing countries.

LSS Farms are next to useless - acres of land used for so little energy, and imagine the waste when these are replaced and go into land fill. Some countries have designated solar panels as toxic as they contaminate ground water.

Wind farms are the most hideous things ever. A blight on the landscape. Amazing how we have distinctive areas and landscapes that stop development but it's OK to install a stack of wind turbines on the same areas.

i doubt there will be any new coal power plants built in 5 years time. China is investing in incredible amounts of solar. India is also startig to follow chinas path. Not for environmental reasons though. Just because its so much cheaper.

in fact if solar costs keep falling at even a third the rate they have fallen in the past decade it will actually be cheaper to close down existing coal plants and build new solar ones to replace them because the LCOE of solar in 5-10 years will soon be cheaper then just the operating cost of coal plants alone.

firming the solar and wind is the only outstanding issue but there are numerous techs emerging to solve this. LDES, hydrogen generation, biofuels, small modular nuclear and gas gen with CCS. Only one of these has to work.

ps. I think wind farms are beautiful. The sound however is more annoying. But these things really dont take up all that much room. Certainly not anywhere as much space as people think. Solar panels dont take up much land at all. I think you are quite mistaken on that front. Wind takes up more room but really still not that much. They dont need to be near humans at all once we build the transmission network out.

 

[JoondalupJ]

In 18th century Britain little was known about diseases and how they spread. It was believed that vapors and miasmas and the four humors - blood, yellow bile, black bile and phlegm - were the causes of illness. Hygiene was minimal. Bleeding was a treatment often used. It is ridiculous to suggest settlers deliberately spread diseases to Aborigines, although no doubt incidental contact between an infected person and one with no immunity would result in the inadvertent spread.

Aboriginals believed illness was caused by sorcery and ill-wishing.

All true. Disease spreading was never deliberate, just people destroying germs.

I wonder what deliberate means??? Could have happened with the Black Plague.

Microscopic's!
They had never dreamed about or knew.

You'd wonder how any of the doctors of the time cured anyone, with the four humors for treatment.
Even when the plague was not hanging around!

 

[barreness]

Why would colonisers need cope? As I said there limited evidence, but archaeological evidence suggests certain hunter gatherer societies were extremely violent, and generally far more violent than modern societies.

Justification for annexing cultures with lower tech, liberal sour grapes

“We see that the levels of violence in prehistoric times and in non-state societies differ widely between societies. But on average they tend to be significantly higher than in modern state societies and the world today.”

Data review: ethnographic and archaeological evidence on violent deaths

What quantitative data is there about violent deaths in non-state societies?

ourworldindata.org

The data here is literally from Pinker, there's a lot of doubts about his work and it's preconceived notions. Do notice the Andamenese are very low which would be close to the Sentenalese you'd imagine

Procedures in collecting this data​

The starting point for my research was the sample presented by Pinker (2011).1 Pinker does not present the numerical data itself but instead includes two bar charts (Figures 2-2 and 2-3) from which the exact data cannot be discerned.

 

[mcnulty]

The data here is literally from Pinker,

No it’s from a variety or sources. The author of the post reached out to Pinkers critics. Extensive links are below.

 

[mcnulty]

We don’t know exactly what happened to the Dorset people of North America, but they disappeared off the face of the planet about 700 years ago, a few hundred years before Columbus. There is no genetic evidence of them among modern day Inuits, suggesting the Thule (hunter gatherers who are modern day Inuits) essentially wiped them out. We can’t be sure of course, there are no written records etc…

But it seems deluded to think early peoples didn’t do this sort of s**t. Humans being humans.

 

[mcnulty]

Thoughts Roylion?

 

[ferball]

We don’t know exactly what happened to the Dorset people of North America, but they disappeared off the face of the planet about 700 years ago, a few hundred years before Columbus. There is no genetic evidence of them among modern day Inuits, suggesting the Thule (hunter gatherers who are modern day Inuits) essentially wiped them out. We can’t be sure of course, there are no written records etc…

But it seems deluded to think early peoples didn’t do this sort of s**t. Humans being humans.

The Inuit claim they bred with the Dorset people and the genetic evidence suggests there was some genetic interaction too.

 

[mcnulty]

The Inuit claim they bred with the Dorset people and the genetic evidence suggests there was some genetic interaction too.

The Dorset seemed to have disappeared without a genetic trace.

Dorset DNA: Genes Trace the Tale of the Arctic's Long-Gone 'Hobbits'

Genetic analysis reveals a previously unknown migration that brought a "hobbit"-like Arctic culture into the Americas from Siberia 4,500 years ago.

www.nbcnews.com

 

[mcnulty]

A “population replacement event”. Something that has no doubt happened throughout history.

 

[barreness]

No it’s from a variety or sources. The author of the post reached out to Pinkers critics. Extensive links are below.

Yes, and did you look into the critiques?

 

[barreness]

I

The Dorset seemed to have disappeared without a genetic trace.

Dorset DNA: Genes Trace the Tale of the Arctic's Long-Gone 'Hobbits'

Genetic analysis reveals a previously unknown migration that brought a "hobbit"-like Arctic culture into the Americas from Siberia 4,500 years ago.

www.nbcnews.com

Interesting, never heard of them. Single maternal line, 3000 individuals, disease or climatic event probably just as likely as genocide

 

[ferball]

The Dorset seemed to have disappeared without a genetic trace.

Dorset DNA: Genes Trace the Tale of the Arctic's Long-Gone 'Hobbits'

Genetic analysis reveals a previously unknown migration that brought a "hobbit"-like Arctic culture into the Americas from Siberia 4,500 years ago.

www.nbcnews.com

Not according to that paper I cited.

We additionally find the Siberian Birnirk culture (6th to 7th century CE) as likely cultural and genetic ancestors of the Thule. The extinct Sadlermiut people from the Hudson Bay region (15th to 19th century CE), considered to be Dorset remnants, are genetically closely related to Thule/Inuit, rather than the Paleo-Eskimos. Moreover, there is no evidence of matrilineal gene flow between Dorset or Thule groups with neighboring Norse (Vikings) populations settling in the Arctic around 1000 years ago. However, we do detect gene flow between the Paleo-Eskimo and Neo-Eskimo lineages, dating back to at least 4000 years.