Analysis Justified or Unfair? Scrutiny of Travis Cloke.

[jjsmitty8]

Hey guys. Hopefully most of you recognise by now that when I start a new thread I aim to create discussion rather than go on a rage fuelled rant about a media personality or opposition lol.

So this is my latest thought. Hear me out before you disagree.

I watch a lot of football (at least 4-5 games a week), and quite often I talk on a live chat to other people watching the game. We've got this little inside joke where we all say "Cloked it", when a guy has missed a shot at goal from a gettable position. It occurred to me today frequently we actually use that phrase which then led me to realise how much company Travis Cloke has in that department.

I understand that he pretty much started the trend and I understand that being a Collingwood player he's an easy target, but the point I'm trying to argue is that he's not a lone soldier. He probably does it more frequently, but he's definitely not alone.

Goal kicking is not a Travis Cloke problem (it is a problem for him at times), but it's a league wide problem and he has become the whipping boy.

Don't get me wrong, it shits me to tears when he misses some of those kicks, but what I'm asking is, is the criticism he cops unfair or is it justified considering how frequently afl players as a collective miss what we all consider to be pretty standard shots at goal?

Just a thought. Discuss.

 

[Somebody]

Worth mentioning that Breust, one of the best set shots, cost Hawthorn this weeks' game by missing 3 easy shots. so it can happen to anyone but does happen a lot more often to Cloke. I think he has a mental and probably technical problem with set shots. Watching him take shots, his style often looks wooden and unnatural to me. But from 50+ that same style looks powerful, there's a subtle difference in how he goes about it. Sort of like a bull in a china shop vs a bull in a paddock.

Hey guys. Hopefully most of you recognise by now that when I start a new thread I aim to create discussion rather than go on a rage fuelled rant about a media personality or opposition lol.

So this is my latest thought. Hear me out before you disagree.

I watch a lot of football (at least 4-5 games a week), and quite often I talk on a live chat to other people watching the game. We've got this little inside joke where we all say "Cloked it", when a guy has missed a shot at goal from a gettable position. It occurred to me today frequently we actually use that phrase which then led me to realise how much company Travis Cloke has in that department.

I understand that he pretty much started the trend and I understand that being a Collingwood player he's an easy target, but the point I'm trying to argue is that he's not a lone soldier. He probably does it more frequently, but he's definitely not alone.

Goal kicking is not a Travis Cloke problem (it is a problem for him at times), but it's a league wide problem and he has become the whipping boy.

Don't get me wrong, it shits me to tears when he misses some of those kicks, but what I'm asking is, is the criticism he cops unfair or is it justified considering how frequently afl players as a collective miss what we all consider to be pretty standard shots at goal?

Just a thought. Discuss.

 

[jjsmitty8]

Worth mentioning that Breust, one of the best set shots, cost Hawthorn this weeks' game by missing 3 easy shots. so it can happen to anyone but does happen a lot more often to Cloke. I think he has a mental and probably technical problem with set shots. Watching him take shots, his style often looks wooden and unnatural to me. But from 50+ that same style looks powerful, there's a subtle difference in how he goes about it.

Yeah, absolutely. I'm not questioning that he's got work to do, but it wasn't until this afternoon when I saw Jay Schulz miss a shot from like 15m out that I was like "wow, imagine the uproar if that was Trav". It's far more common than people care to admit.

I agree whole heartedly with your comment fwiw.

 

[ottoman]

Justified. Other players miss but I doubt many miss easy shots as consistently as he does. And this is the thing we need to take into account when we compare his kicking accuracy against other players. It is the easy ones which he misses frequently. On the money he is on I think it is fair to be critical of him if he is not doing what he is paid to do. Consistently missing easy shots on goal is not acceptable and while he continues to do it he will continue to get criticised for this aspect of his game.
Love the guy but those easy misses drive me crazy

 

[tesselate_]

I had a look at the accuracy of 10 other upper echelon key forwards over their careers:

Jay Schultz 66.6%
Jeremy Cameron 65.2%
Josh Kennedy 64.7%
Tom Hawkins 63.8%
Jack Riewoldt 63.6%
Matthew Pavlich 62.2%
Taylor Walker 62.2%
Drew Petrie 61.3%
Jarryd Roughead 61%
Lance Franklin 58%
Travis Cloke 54.9%
Average: 62%

Being without access to accuracy from set shot %, I just divided total goals scored by total goals+total behinds. Comparing Cloke's average to the rest, you can probably make the case that he's the most inaccurate of his peers, but the team you play for could have a significant effect: does your teams gamestyle force you to take more shots than most from tight angles? I decided to look at Jesse White and Jamie Elliot just to be sure: in the past season and a half, Elliot's gone at 66%, Jesse (past season and a half) at 57.8%. Seeing as they're both more accurate than Cloke, as well as being more in line with the above average, you could say with a fair degree of certainty that Travis is a well below average shot for goal.

On a side note, does anyone know where I can find more detailed stats, say, shots for goals from marks inside 50?

 

[Visions]

If there has been one thing Cloke has been consistent at over the years, it has been his below par goalkicking. He really hasn't improved during the course of his career, and despite all the talk that pops up every now and then about the new "fix" he is employing, he (and everyone else) might as well get used to the fact it won't ever improve.

Other key players at other clubs may have bad days in front of goal but they usually bounce back, Cloke seems to be a polar opposite in which he will have a great day out popping them from everywhere one round, and then back to his usual average stuff the next few weeks.

I think the reason the criticism is justified is because he is a long term career player, who is being paid close to the elite category salary, but is not near an elite player.

 

[Green Eggs]

Very justified. He is on Buddy/Judd/Pendles money and we're getting buck all when it comes to outputs and deliverables - on top of this, his poor body language impacts the rest of the forward line also.

I wouldn't be surprised if he was on more money than Petrie, Roughead, Riewoldt but they're all offering a lot more than Trav is at the moment. If we lose any of our kids due to not enough funds in the salary cap, and Trav hasn't improved, this will be one of the worst player agreements in the history of the club. Should be on $400,000 max.

 

[DrDavoren]

There have always been guys who go through the yips, some they last longer.
Rocca used to miss some puds too, Lindsay Thomas has done a full 180.

Maybe Trav is trying too hard mentally and just needs to try a little harder physically, in that I mean just having set shots at training or playing on a bit more in games.

When he wheels around he looks very good.

Sure he and the club will get through this but really pleased how Trav takes it in his stride and still presents and contests.

Looks much better up the ground a bit as he can bring others into the game with his bombs to the square.

With Fasolo back and Elliot we could have some smalls to compliment Trav and White.

 

[PIES 4 LIFE]

The reason for his inaccuracy is he is a selfish player when it comes to kicking for goal. When he takes a mark 15 metres out from goal straight in front, he should be looking to hanball it to a player running past, or kick it to someone in a better position, not have the shot himself.

Players have to know their capabilities, if he is 40 metres plus out then for all means take the shot, but from 15 metres Really?

 

[TradeDraft]

Well IF The Scumps where Fair for Cloke. It would make his Job Easier

 

[mattys123]

Scrutiny on Cloke is fair enough but the coaching staff seem quite happy with his output so far this season, and to be fair he's not going so bad.

Let's not say he's "over paid" or "should be on 400k a year" shall we, we paid him what we had to so that he would stay at the club. BUT HE ALSO TOOK LESS THEN WHAT HE COULD HAVE GOT ELSEWHERE. (Carlton offered WAY MORE)

Ignore his Dad's bullshit talk, the deal between Cloke and the Pies was fair at the time, and is still fair now.

Tom Boyd is on a million a year, Hawkins apparently going to get 650-700k, Cloke is only on Hawkins money.

As for his performances yes his kicking is bad, BUT HELL, if you are still whinging about his kicking you must be new to being a Pies fan, because he's been a bad kick for goal for 11 seasons now.

With better support would become more shots, which leads to more goals, which leads to more confidence.

He's going ok, but could play better, let's just leave it at that.

 

[didaksrightfoot]

I had a look at the accuracy of 10 other upper echelon key forwards over their careers:

Jay Schultz 66.6%
Jeremy Cameron 65.2%
Josh Kennedy 64.7%
Tom Hawkins 63.8%
Jack Riewoldt 63.6%
Matthew Pavlich 62.2%
Taylor Walker 62.2%
Drew Petrie 61.3%
Jarryd Roughead 61%
Lance Franklin 58%
Travis Cloke 54.9%
Average: 62%

Being without access to accuracy from set shot %, I just divided total goals scored by total goals+total behinds. Comparing Cloke's average to the rest, you can probably make the case that he's the most inaccurate of his peers, but the team you play for could have a significant effect: does your teams gamestyle force you to take more shots than most from tight angles? I decided to look at Jesse White and Jamie Elliot just to be sure: in the past season and a half, Elliot's gone at 66%, Jesse (past season and a half) at 57.8%. Seeing as they're both more accurate than Cloke, as well as being more in line with the above average, you could say with a fair degree of certainty that Travis is a well below average shot for goal.

On a side note, does anyone know where I can find more detailed stats, say, shots for goals from marks inside 50?

The thing about goalkicking stats is people should compare Trav to the average forward (62%) not to a perfect 100%.

Lets say he has 100 shots on goal for the year - and kicks 55 goals.
The average forward would kick 62 of those, and the best, 66.
So Trav's kicking is costing us 7 goals per season compared to average, or at most, 11 goals compared to the best goal kickers.
At most - thats 3 points a game... That is generally not the difference between winning and losing.
---

Scrutiny of his goal kicking is justified. He has always had struggles with his goalkicking, and it seems to be getting worse in the last couple of years.

But it must be balanced with a view of everything else he provides. He is still one of the best marking forwards in the game. I would guess thats he's also one of the strongest KPFs, and has a better tank than most. His goalkicking lets him down, but take everything else into account and he is clearly better than the average forward.

It is also fair to say he is overpaid, but that must be put into context of a footballing world where key forwards are always overpaid. Realistically, if we let Cloke walk in 2012 (?) who better would we have gotten to replace him? Remember that Tippet cost the Swans $1m a year... and just wait to see how much Hawkins gets overpaid this summer.

 

[tesselate_]

The thing about goalkicking stats is people should compare Trav to the average forward (62%) not to a perfect 100%.

Lets say he has 100 shots on goal for the year - and kicks 55 goals.
The average forward would kick 62 of those, and the best, 66.
So Trav's kicking is costing us 7 goals per season compared to average, or at most, 11 goals compared to the best goal kickers.
At most - thats 3 points a game... That is generally not the difference between winning and losing.
---

That's fair enough on face value, but I'd be interested to know how much of an effect it has on morale. I suspect that when the team's grinding hard for each possession and when a valuable inside 50 is wasted because Cloke's shanked it, it can take the wind out of the sails, or at the very least, put more pressure on the next set shot. How often do we see one or two set shot misses turn into run of consecutive misses?

 

[Pie eyed]

If there has been one thing Cloke has been consistent at over the years, it has been his below par goalkicking. He really hasn't improved during the course of his career, and despite all the talk that pops up every now and then about the new "fix" he is employing, he (and everyone else) might as well get used to the fact it won't ever improve.

Other key players at other clubs may have bad days in front of goal but they usually bounce back, Cloke seems to be a polar opposite in which he will have a great day out popping them from everywhere one round, and then back to his usual average stuff the next few weeks.

I think the reason the criticism is justified is because he is a long term career player, who is being paid close to the elite category salary, but is not near an elite player.

Certainly true if you ignore any other facet of the game.
Contested marks for instance.

 

[Apex36]

Clokes goal kicking has left a lot to be desired this year as usual, but I'm really liking his game overall. He's moving up the ground more, usually dragging his defender out with him, and freeing up space in the forward 50 for our other forwards to lead in to. There's a reason White has been getting 4-5 shots on goal for the last 3 weeks, and Cloke is a big part of it imo.

 

[dansa]

Well IF The Scumps where Fair for Cloke. It would make his Job Easier

yeah instead of kicking 2.5 he'd kick 2.9

 

[Quicky]

Cloked it! Classic. It'd even be funny if it weren't so serious.

I must say Cloke didn't start poor goal kicking. Poor goal kicking has been a problem for time immemorial.

But Cloke has made a fine art of it. Saw the stat on this weekends telecast, he is 11% accuracy between 30-50m out. The rest of his goal kicking is fine. But that is atrocious and justifies criticism.

 

[Zahki]

He brought the scrutiny on himself. You can't ask a kings ransom and then complain when people question whether you're worth the money you're being paid. Right now he's not worth what he's being paid and deserves a significant cut when his next contract gets done, his goal kicking has been shocking and if you can't master such a basic skill as a key forward then you're not worth 800k a year.

 

[vjknight]

When the pressure gets to him, he can think of the luxury pad he lives in, and the lifestyle him and his family enjoy as a direct result of his contract.

Too hard.........tada.

 

[Pie eyed]

Cloked it! Classic. It'd even be funny if it weren't so serious.

I must say Cloke didn't start poor goal kicking. Poor goal kicking has been a problem for time immemorial.

But Cloke has made a fine art of it. Saw the stat on this weekends telecast, he is 11% accuracy between 30-50m out. The rest of his goal kicking is fine. But that is atrocious and justifies criticism.

And totally justifies his playing CHFand never taking a shot from less than 40 meters.
Any closer he should hand pass backwards to a designated kicker behind him.

 

[HeavyPop]

It annoys me when people call him a bad player and use his kicking for goal as a way to justify that. His lack of ability to kick straight keeps him from being an elite KPF, but he is still a top forward and I think people will come around to him again once we improve. It's fair enough to question if he does enough to justify his pay, however when he signed at the end of 2012, he was coming off a season where he kicked 59 goals and took 157 marks and 2011 where he kicked 69 goals and took 192 marks.

He might be overpaid to an extent, but you don't win flags without key forwards and we've not got much after Cloke at this point in time.

 

[Ulahoopski]

For every relatively easy "even my grandma could kick that" shot that he misses, he kicks 2 boundary line outside 50 goals that only a handful of players could kick. Yet amongst all the criticism there's no acknowledgement or praise of that extraordinary talent. Regardless of that, you don't judge a player on one aspect of their game. Anyone who has ever kept their eyes on Cloke for an entire match knows his worth in so many other areas. The man's a machine, and a monstrous one at that. The keyboard has turned everyone into a critic.

 

[THATSGOLD]

Cost us the Richmond game and parts of the Geelong especially a chance to get back in it by missing the easiest shots. I'll be honest I'll happier when he's retired and we have some decent tall forwards that don't miss goals from 20 meters out.

 

[PieNSauce]

For every relatively easy "even my grandma could kick that" shot that he misses, he kicks 2 boundary line outside 50 goals that only a handful of players could kick. Yet amongst all the criticism there's no acknowledgement or praise of that extraordinary talent. Regardless of that, you don't judge a player on one aspect of their game. Anyone who has ever kept their eyes on Cloke for an entire match knows his worth in so many other areas. The man's a machine, and a monstrous one at that. The keyboard has turned everyone into a critic.

Great post. I think there's a simple question to be answered here and that is how would we look without him? My guess is that we would get flogged week in and week out. He may not kick all of the goals he should but his work rate is epic and his attack on the ball cannot be questioned. The fear factor for opposition backs alone is probably worth 2 or 3 goals a game and for the life of me I can't see what you could replace him with.

 

[loki04]

I had a look at the accuracy of 10 other upper echelon key forwards over their careers:

Jay Schultz 66.6%
Jeremy Cameron 65.2%
Josh Kennedy 64.7%
Tom Hawkins 63.8%
Jack Riewoldt 63.6%
Matthew Pavlich 62.2%
Taylor Walker 62.2%
Drew Petrie 61.3%
Jarryd Roughead 61%
Lance Franklin 58%
Travis Cloke 54.9%
Average: 62%

Being without access to accuracy from set shot %, I just divided total goals scored by total goals+total behinds. Comparing Cloke's average to the rest, you can probably make the case that he's the most inaccurate of his peers, but the team you play for could have a significant effect: does your teams gamestyle force you to take more shots than most from tight angles? I decided to look at Jesse White and Jamie Elliot just to be sure: in the past season and a half, Elliot's gone at 66%, Jesse (past season and a half) at 57.8%. Seeing as they're both more accurate than Cloke, as well as being more in line with the above average, you could say with a fair degree of certainty that Travis is a well below average shot for goal.

On a side note, does anyone know where I can find more detailed stats, say, shots for goals from marks inside 50?

Cloke has an extraordinary amount of out of bounds on the full too further lowering his % always gets left out of these things. Id say double the amount of the next worst in Franklin.

Despite that he is still a player you want on your team. CHF is his go imo.