For those who think Woosha is a crab

So you think he is a crab. Poor gameplan. No freedom for youngsters. Lack of confidence and teamwork on the field. Poor team selection. Wrong player positioning. Poor structures. Abysmal forward line structure. Poor match day tactics. No heart.

You all have a pretty solid case. let's assume you are all correct. He is a crab. I repeat:

You are all correct, HE IS A CRAB.

Now, you all wanted him gone last year and you all want him gone now. You want him replaced with a coach who can.....coach. A coach who can get the same team playing good confident footy with heart.

Would you give up Naita, Shuey, and one, possibly two top 5 picks in October in exchange for having your desired coach?

He had a 70% win loss ratio before 2008.

I agree totally with you BB, whatever the outcome in terms of who coaches us Worsfold is doing what is right for the club. I want a coach who is willing to sacrifice his current position for the benefit of the club right now, that is what he is doing. If in another year and a bit he isnt able to lead the group we pick up up the ladder then sack him and get a new bloke. But right now he is sacrificing for the club and thats what we need right now more than a 10-11th place on the ladder and more games into the senior players.

I'm more than happy to accomodate people who don't rate woosh - they do have a case. What annoys me is these nuffies for 18 months have been crying out that we a need a coach who will let the kids be creative, and have a foward structure, and get our skills better etc. That's all well and good but it won't win us a flag. That list we had in 2008 is not capable of being developed into a flag winning side without the injection of some serious new talent. Mid table picks are just not going to cut. This is what these nuffies who want Woosh out fail to realise.

So are you saying we should keep Woosha because he's a crap coach?

We could save $700K and get Metro to coach the team

larrikin said:

So are you saying we should keep Woosha because he's a crap coach?

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I said he's a crap coach to stop the nuffies who don't rate him arguning on whether he's a good coach or not. This thread assumes he is a crap coach.

Now let's talk about the pro's and con's of getting rid of him.

There were many who wanted him gone last year and stil want him gone. I want these people to justify why they think they think they were right and why they think they are still right.

Most of these nuffies can't think past: "crap coach, must go, end of story".

We could save $700K and get Metro to coach the team

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Unfortunately it doesn't work like that. Our club is rich as well, we prolly have $700k in change down the back of the sofa in the players' common room.

The essence of the argument, in my mind, is what does Worsfold add.

He may not be a great match day tactician (and like you, I'll concede that point as given), but I think there is immense value in Woosha in getting the next group (the Masten, Naitanui, Ebert, Notte, Shuey, Browns etc) up to contention. If people don't see that value in him, then there argument to remove him is probably valid.

larrikin said:

The essence of the argument, in my mind, is what does Worsfold add.

He may not be a great match day tactician (and like you, I'll concede that point as given), but I think there is immense value in Woosha in getting the next group (the Masten, Naitanui, Ebert, Notte, Shuey, Browns etc) up to contention. If people don't see that value in him, then there argument to remove him is probably valid.

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This argument is not for this thread. I'd don't want people coming in here and arguing that. Been done to death.

I want those people who have wanted Woosh gone for the last 18 months come and justify their stance further than just "he can't coach". I want them to explain why a good coach last year and this year would have us closer to a flag. I know they can't do it, i just want to laugh at them seeing them try.

I don't think you can separate the arguments that eaily. Good luck to you though

BB,

Been reading your posts with interest over the last few days and pretty much agree that a talent injection is required...but I just need a bit of clarification over what you think should be happening at WCE as you seem to be advocating tanking to get high draft picks at the moment?

cheers Taz

Both parties would be better for a change.

Tazmania said:

...but I just need a bit of clarification over what you think should be happening at WCE as you seem to be advocating tanking to get high draft picks at the moment?

cheers Taz

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Our 2008 list was never going to be developed into a flag winning side. The crux of the 06 flag side was the midfield. Take Cuz and Judd out and we plummeted from 1 to 16. We could have got the best coach in the world but we never would have gotten a flag out of them without going down the bottom of the ladder.

So from a supporter and club perspective, the highest percentage way and quickest way of getting to a position where we can realistic win a flag is drafting guns. Statistics say the best way to do that is obtain several early picks, particular some within top 7.

From a supporter perspective you want the team to lose. How they lose is irrelevant. Whether it be s**t players, s**t coach, tanking, doesn't matter. The eye needs to be on either prize: top draft picks and premiership cup. So I'm not really saying, "let's go tank" rather "I hope for what ever reason we acquire those low draft picks".

From the clubs perspective, the first thing they must realise is where they are at. Our club seems to have a handle on that, thankfully. Then they must decide how they go about building a flag side.

1. Clearly many current players are not up to leading a flag charge. Move them on, replace them with young players.
2. Test all young players out to determine their ability. Give them extended runs even if they may not be in the best 22. It's a long term benfit to the club to play them 6-8 weeks in a row and give them best chance of proving themselves
3. Play a game plan that you would have a talented flag winning side play. No point saying "well our ability is at 3/10 so let's play a game plan that suits that ability, and when we move up to 5/10 we'll change our game plan again, and when we move up to 8/10 we'll implement the flag winning game plan". All this does is win a crap list a couple of extra games. You play the flag game plan and keep getting beaten until the talent gradually increases until in can win with that plan. This almost guarantees you sit near the bottom building your list until it's good enough to go all the way.
4. Trade. I'm a big advocate of when your team has passed the premiership window, you offload 2-3 of your big players for low draft picks. We had it done for us in Judd and Cuz. Some have suggested Kerr and/or Cox be traded if we can get #1 pick. Would have been beneficial to get Rich on top of NicNat last year.

So what I want the club to do is not tank. I want them to understand where the team is at, what list they need to get a flag, and the best way to go about it. Dump dead wood, play kids, play a high level game plan, keep bringing in fresh players until a list is assembled that can nail the game plan.

This is not tanking. It's a system that optimises the AFL's draft system. The name of the game is to win flags and that's the most effective and efficient way of doing. No one is trying to lose, just trying to develop the best team possible.

sdb4884 said:

Both parties would be better for a change.

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How so? How would have the Eagles been better off with the coach you wanted last year?

Better structure, better forward tactics, better match day tactics, more heart etc = more wins.

Can you explain how this gets us closer to a flag than picking up Naita and Shuey?

The funny thing is that most people whinged and bitched and moaned about Ken Judge but few acknoledge that he unwittingly played a huge part in our 06 flag.

In hindsight, do people still regret having KJ? If people had their time again would they have still wanted him sacked earlier for a better coach?

We've gone full circle and we're back at that place again. Some people haven't learnt. KJ delivered us pick 3 which got us Judd. Woosha has delievered naita and maybe another superstar (or 2) in October.

This is a very very important part of the cycle. Whether Woosha is doing it unwittingly or on purpose is neither here nor there. He is delievering as we speak. Just like Ken Judge did in 00/01.

bunsen burner said:

The funny thing is that most people whinged and bitched and moaned about Ken Judge but few acknoledge that he unwittingly played a huge part in our 06 flag.

In hindsight, do people still regret having KJ? If people had their time again would they have still wanted him sacked earlier for a better coach?

We've gone full circle and we're back at that place again. Some people haven't learnt. KJ delivered us pick 3 which got us Judd. Woosha has delievered naita and maybe another superstar (or 2) in October.

This is a very very important part of the cycle. Whether Woosha is doing it unwittingly or on purpose is neither here nor there. He is delievering as we speak. Just like Ken Judge did in 00/01.

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Good post, completely agree

It annoys me that people say that Woosha is a poor tactical coach. They forget that he pretty much came up with the running, handballing gameplan to counter Adelaide's flood, and then Geelong took it on board for success, and a number of other teams have since used it. It was a pretty revolutionary step to consistently have more handballs than kicks, but now it is the norm.

bunsen burner said:

The funny thing is that most people whinged and bitched and moaned about Ken Judge but few acknoledge that he unwittingly played a huge part in our 06 flag.

In hindsight, do people still regret having KJ? If people had their time again would they have still wanted him sacked earlier for a better coach?

We've gone full circle and we're back at that place again. Some people haven't learnt. KJ delivered us pick 3 which got us Judd. Woosha has delievered naita and maybe another superstar (or 2) in October.

This is a very very important part of the cycle. Whether Woosha is doing it unwittingly or on purpose is neither here nor there. He is delievering as we speak. Just like Ken Judge did in 00/01.

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I must be old fashion, I like to turn up at a game and see my team win - or at least try to.

If I knew my team had no intention of winning the game then I wouldn't even bother going to the game.

jaxxon said:

It annoys me that people say that Woosha is a poor tactical coach. They forget that he pretty much came up with the running, handballing gameplan to counter Adelaide's flood, and then Geelong took it on board for success, and a number of other teams have since used it. It was a pretty revolutionary step to consistently have more handballs than kicks, but now it is the norm.

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Wrong thread.

imwrong said:

I must be old fashion, I like to turn up at a game and see my team win - or at least try to.

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Correct, you are old fashioned. Given the phase of the cycle we are in, you can't have both. You can either have wins and no flag with that list, or losses and wins later and possibly a flag later.

If I knew my team had no intention of winning the game then I wouldn't even bother going to the game.

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What has this got to do with anything? Who mentioned anything about either the players or the coach intentionally trying to lose games?

Old fashioned and some else I won't mention.

bunsen burner said:

What has this got to do with anything? Who mentioned anything about either the players or the coach intentionally trying to lose games?

Old fashioned and some else I won't mention.

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Getting a bit personal. Maybe you should direct some of your time into your woeful grammar, assuming that English is your first language.

imwrong said:

Getting a bit personal. Maybe you should direct some of your time into your woeful grammar, assuming that English is your first language.

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taking your bat and ball and going home? Bye.

bunsen burner said:

This argument is not for this thread. I'd don't want people coming in here and arguing that. Been done to death.

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Your right its not another 'bag woosha thread'.

It is another 'justification for tanking thread' disguised as a bag woosha thread.

Which when put under the argument will boil back to those that think that draft picks is what wins flags and those that don't.

You've made it clear in previous posts where you stand on this BB.

bunsen burner said:

taking your bat and ball and going home? Bye.

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Just a tip for you junior, you should start a sentence with a capital letter.

Your happy the Eagles are losing, good for you.

BB, I agree with you generally. The overreation by some to where we're really at, is laughable. I appreciate that we have a very similar view on the cyclical nature of the AFL system and that the best path forward is 'gulp' finishing with less than 5 wins this season.

But I disagree with you on this notion

bunsen burner said:

Dump dead wood, play kids, play a high level game plan, keep bringing in fresh players until a list is assembled that can nail the game plan.

This is not tanking. It's a system that optimises the AFL's draft system. The name of the game is to win flags and that's the most effective and efficient way of doing. No one is trying to lose, just trying to develop the best team possible.

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Tanking, in my mind, is not doing everything (EVERYTHING!) possible to win this upcoming game. Sending senior players to surgery whilst playing kids who aren't ready is not doing everything possible to win that game. That is tanking. You call it "a system that optimises the AFL's draft". It's tanking. Tanking is what optimises the AFL's draft.

The system is flawed.

Just pray we don't do something as blatantly obvious/stupid as drag our best player from the ground with 5 minutes to go. *cough*Carlton

galen said:

Your right its not another 'bag woosha thread'.

It is another 'justification for tanking thread' disguised as a bag woosha thread.

Which when put under the argument will boil back to those that think that draft picks is what wins flags and those that don't.

You've made it clear in previous posts where you stand on this BB.

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Nail. Hit. Head.

I feel disgusted I contributed to this now...

There is no such thing as stupid threads...just stupid people. Bunsen you act like you have a say in whether Woosh stays on as coach and gets re-signed. Mate ease up a little and let others have a say, perhaps you should go join a freaking Nazi Forum and boss them around a bit and not get stabbed!!