List Mgmt. 2015 LIST Discussion - trades, free agency etc

[Carl]

Not being a pest or anything.

But I'm interested in Chris Yarran to Pies, if something was to happen, Would a early second round pick and maybe a late third round do the deal? (Don't Troll)

Sounds fair to me. It's not like he will be around when we play finals again. If he was a free agent the compo would be most probably end of first round. We will throw in Thomas for free.

 

[The Blue Baggers]

i would give away our first draft pick for some club just to take thomas

 

[jezzzza]

I have a question about our list:

Is it just me, or do we still seem to have a lot of "Athletes" on our list?

To clarify, it seems to me that we have quite a few players that either didn't play AFL as young kids, or if they did they weren't great at it. Then as Teenagers they grew their natural athleticism/size (I'm looking at you Levi) and were able to use that to become top level players at a TAC cup level .

Watching our games, it seems like a fair few of our players lack the basic stuff that you pick up playing footy as a kid. Things like:

• Reading the bounce of the ball (I can't count the number of times I've watched one of our players going for a bouncing ball and screaming at the T.V. that the ball is going to bounce high, and then seeing our player not read it and either miss the ball, or get hammered because they had to slow/stop to grab it)
• Leading Patterns (This is one that they teach at my nephews local club at around 11yrs old)
• How to kick the ball to the leading player (Hint: dont sit it on their head, kick into the space for the player to run on to)
• Tackling - This one annoys me... seen so many times where our players try the one handed jumper grab... 2 HANDS AND PIN THE ARMS)

There are others, but these are really basic stuff we seem to be lacking.

Just my opinion, I'd love to hear what you guys think.

 

[Todman]

I have a question about our list:

Is it just me, or do we still seem to have a lot of "Athletes" on our list?

Just my opinion, I'd love to hear what you guys think.

Is it wishful thinking that the coaches can create a talented footballer out of a athlete?

Hawthorn went down that road in the 1990's, believing that they could create a Koutoufides, boy did they draft some duds.

I fear Carlton has the same mindset.

 

[jezzzza]

Is it wishful thinking that the coaches can create a talented footballer out of a athlete?

Hawthorn went down that road in the 1990's, believing that they could create a Koutoufides, boy did they draft some duds.

I fear Carlton has the same mindset.

It is most certainly wishful thinking, you can crate a good footballer, but a talented footballer requires an understanding of the game that comes from playing for years and being coached from a young age.

 

[J-dog]

Sorry, posted this before but would really love some feedback...
Q1) Out of interest, how do people think we would have fared against the cats tonight with this lineup:

B: Buckley Jameson Rowe
HB: White Hendo Docherty
C: Yarran Murphy Simpson
HF: Everret Jones Tutt
FF: Menzel Casboult Jaksch
Foll: Wood Cripps Curnow
Int: Gibbs Bell Armfield
Sub: Judd/Smith/Byrne/Thomas/Boekhorst

Q2) What about this same line up with a bit of a run and carry strategy from kick in and Caz alternating with Jones as a stay at home forward?

I honestly believe this is our best line up, just feel if we played a confident blend of run/carry with plenty of overlap and one stay home forward we would be in a very different position right now...

 

[J-dog]

What do you think, Harks?

 

[Cringle]

Sorry, posted this before but would really love some feedback...
Q1) Out of interest, how do people think we would have fared against the cats tonight with this lineup:

B: Buckley Jameson Rowe
HB: White Hendo Docherty
C: Yarran Murphy Simpson
HF: Everret Jones Tutt
FF: Menzel Casboult Jaksch
Foll: Wood Cripps Curnow
Int: Gibbs Bell Armfield
Sub: Judd/Smith/Byrne/Thomas/Boekhorst

Q2) What about this same line up with a bit of a run and carry strategy from kick in and Caz alternating with Jones as a stay at home forward?

I honestly believe this is our best line up, just feel if we played a confident blend of run/carry with plenty of overlap and one stay home forward we would be in a very different position right now...

4x KPD is a bit random. Wouldn't have a great amount of run out of defence.

Do like the idea of 3x KPF though. Seems we're always being out marked up front due to height. Probably not a great idea to play 2x ruckman.

 

[J-dog]

I have a question about our list:

Is it just me, or do we still seem to have a lot of "Athletes" on our list?

To clarify, it seems to me that we have quite a few players that either didn't play AFL as young kids, or if they did they weren't great at it. Then as Teenagers they grew their natural athleticism/size (I'm looking at you Levi) and were able to use that to become top level players at a TAC cup level .

Watching our games, it seems like a fair few of our players lack the basic stuff that you pick up playing footy as a kid. Things like:

• Reading the bounce of the ball (I can't count the number of times I've watched one of our players going for a bouncing ball and screaming at the T.V. that the ball is going to bounce high, and then seeing our player not read it and either miss the ball, or get hammered because they had to slow/stop to grab it)
• Leading Patterns (This is one that they teach at my nephews local club at around 11yrs old)
• How to kick the ball to the leading player (Hint: dont sit it on their head, kick into the space for the player to run on to)
• Tackling - This one annoys me... seen so many times where our players try the one handed jumper grab... 2 HANDS AND PIN THE ARMS)

There are others, but these are really basic stuff we seem to be lacking.

Just my opinion, I'd love to hear what you guys think.

Sorry I don't get this impression at all. I agree the points you made are problems but not that the players can't execute, rather they are way too occupied trying to zone and get to position that pretty much all of the defensive work goes out the window, and offensively that are too scared about making mistakes they take forever with the ball and also don't want to run hard to cover a team mates mistake when made (they would rather get shitty, drop their heads and drag their feet than suck it up and run like the blazes). It's all between the ears I think.

Not a shot at you or anything, just interesting how people can perceive things differently.

 

[J-dog]

Thanks for the reply!

I figured White and Doc would rotate through the middle (MM is trying this already), but who is the second ruckman? Figured Caz would pinch hit, Rowe stays home in the 50 and the 3KPD zone and throw their weight around.
How many teams have a mosquito fleet?

4x KPD is a bit random. Wouldn't have a great amount of run out of defence.

Do like the idea of 3x KPF though. Seems we're always being out marked up front due to height. Probably not a great idea to play 2x ruckman.

 

[J-dog]

Geelong had a few big KPDs tonight and they worked together quite well (and always did with Scalett, Harley, Taylor, Enright, etc).

 

[Cringle]

Thanks for the reply!

I figured White and Doc would rotate through the middle (MM is trying this already), but who is the second ruckman? Figured Caz would pinch hit, Rowe stays home in the 50 and the 3KPD zone and throw their weight around.
How many teams have a mosquito fleet?

Was referring to Warnock and Wood last night.

If we have Casboult up front their is no point playing 2x rucks.

Besides... Cas thrives with a run in the ruck. Gets him up the ground and into the game.

 

[jezzzza]

Sorry I don't get this impression at all. I agree the points you made are problems but not that the players can't execute, rather they are way too occupied trying to zone and get to position that pretty much all of the defensive work goes out the window, and offensively that are too scared about making mistakes they take forever with the ball and also don't want to run hard to cover a team mates mistake when made (they would rather get shitty, drop their heads and drag their feet than suck it up and run like the blazes). It's all between the ears I think.

Not a shot at you or anything, just interesting how people can perceive things differently.

Thanks for the reply

You are probably right about the positioning and such, but fundamental skills like kicking to a leading player & proper tackling seem to be missing.

Poor Liam Jones has copped as fair bit of flak from the commentators about his season so far, but I'd argue that if the poor fella was receiving passes that were even remotely positioned correctly he'd be having a much better year.

 

[Wickzki]

Is it wishful thinking that the coaches can create a talented footballer out of a athlete?

Whenever this question pops up I am reminded of when the Milwaukee Bucks selected Joe Alexander with the eighth overall selection in the 2008 NBA Draft. The kid was a freakish athlete. He'd had a somewhat successful junior season in college. He was Caucasian. What was there not to love? Surely his athleticism was enough to make him the next Larry Bird... Right!? Well, one of the Milwaukee higher ups, (I believe) their executive VP, in his media interview after drafting him lobs timeless classic with this beauty, "We considered him to be the best athlete in the draft. Just wait until we teach him how to play basketball." After a rookie season in which he averaged just 4.7 points in 12.1 minutes and 59 games (NBA seasons have 82 games and 48 minutes so essentially he played 18% of a full season (total minutes played / minutes total) he became one of the first (if not the first) lottery picks in NBA history not to have his third year option picked up and he was unceremoniously traded to Chicago as a 'throw in' to match salaries in a trade. He played 29 minutes in 8 games for Chicago in his second and last NBA season. He averaged 4.5ppg for Maccabi Tel Aviv this season.

The answer is unequivocally no. You cannot train someone who is not naturally gifted to be a footballer to become a quality football player. Even the Irish kids who come over to Australia and perform extremely well - Stynes, Kennelly, Tuohy, etc. - have some natural disposition to play AFL football. They may not have done so previously but they pick up the skills quickly because they're naturals. You'll often read about how easy it was to teach the successful ones because they've got those innate qualities. Training and teaching somebody to become an AFL player is not as simple as teaching them how to kick, mark, tackle, handball, etc. Those are tangible skills that can be taught. What cannot be taught is the intangibles. You either have them or you do not.

What I have difficulty comprehending is that we've done rather well with highlighting the Irish kids who have a natural disposition to play AFL football. On the other hand we've had much less comparative success in targeting local (Australian) kids who are 'athletes' rather than Aussie Rules footballers. That to me tells me that something is afoul in our recruiting department. There have been too many wasted draft picks on the likes of Shaun Hampson or in trade for the Robbie Warnock's - guys who scream footballer from their height or the way in which they move but who just don't have the natural disposition to fulfill the blinded athletic potential. Though perhaps I am being a tad harsh on Warnock who I believe may have been a fine footballer in a previous era when height rather than footballing ability was necessary. Still, it shows signs of a recruiting department that has been stuck in the dark ages for far too long. We've never been a great drafting club. Never. We've had a few spectacular hits over the years but they don't marry up with the number of wasted draft picks. For every Eddie Betts type hit there has been two or more Murray Vance's and Shaun Hampson's.

Now we are left to pray and hope that Stephen Silvagni, as Navy Blue as there has ever been, has the nous and the support around him to transform the football club. For once I honestly believe in SOS. It's not going to happen overnight. It's going to take a good three or four years before this football club sees the new dawn rising. We are going to have to deal with ineptitude over the short term. We're going to have to begrudgingly accept that players who don't have the innate ability to be genuine AFL footballers are going to play significant parts in our best 22 over the next year or so with the understanding that SOS will weed them out of the list as realistically soon as he can. But, if SOS does the job that I believe that he can and that he will the new dawn of this club will be the real dawn and not the false dawn we expected to have when we traded in Chris Judd (bless him for playing the best part of his career at a club that simply had no clue what it was doing).

 

[BM123]

They can make the transition but Carlton failed by spending first round draft picks on them.

I'd say that it would easier to make the transition to AFL as a natural athlete with good sporting intelligence then the NBA though.

 

[ItsAllAboutMe]

At least Curnow should have secured himself a spot on our list next year.

 

[BM123]

At least Curnow should have secured himself a spot on our list next year.

Curnow as our sole tagger works fine for me.

 

[I AM CARLTON]

We really have no key forwards at the mo.

Jones and Casboult simple aren't good enough.

If Hendo goes to the cats we are in even more trouble although I would like to see Hendo go back to CHB and Jaksch and Rowe played up forward for the rest of the season.

 

[jezzzza]

Curnow as our sole tagger works fine for me.

I'd prefer that we dont play a tagger. Most of the successful teams don't employ a full time tagger. Yes, they have players who can do a run with job, but those players are also attacking midfielders. Something that I think Ed isn't anymore.

 

[basil00]

We really have no key forwards at the mo.

Jones and Casboult simple aren't good enough.

If Hendo goes to the cats we are in even more trouble although I would like to see Hendo go back to CHB and Jaksch and Rowe played up forward for the rest of the season.

Disagree on Casboult, he has huge potential if he can get his kicking right. Both Dermie Brereton and Wayne Carey really rate him. As for Rowe playing forward, he is way better as a defender and needs to stay there to be our main guy when Jamo retires.

 

[The Edukator]

Did anyone listen to Gibbs on sen not too long ago? He stated that he and Murphy Sat down with the "club hierarchy" who made it clear to them that they would not be traded.

A few other things he said made it feel like the playing group, or he at the very least, had been lost by malthouse (to some extent). He did not explicitly say this but that was just my feeling reading between the lines.

If those two boys are staying then it looks like it will be hendo and yarran on the table. My guess is hendo given the contractual situation.

 

[HereComesJuddy]

Did anyone listen to Gibbs on sen not too long ago? He stated that he and Murphy Sat down with the "club hierarchy" who made it clear to them that they would not be traded.

A few other things he said made it feel like the playing group, or he at the very least, had been lost by malthouse (to some extent). He did not explicitly say this but that was just my feeling reading between the lines.

If those two boys are staying then it looks like it will be hendo and yarran on the table. My guess is hendo given the contractual situation.

Didn't hear Gibbs quote that, but I wouldn't be surprised.

Though, I think the board have put full trust in sos. So if sos says tomorrow, Gibbs mist go. I think everything changes.

I pray that is what sos says.

 

[Cringle]

Gibbs has been extremely concerning. How can he go from BnF one year... so hardly sited through the next year?

If he's carrying any niggles he needs to rest... there is nothing to gain out of this season and may force Mick to play Graham.

 

[The Edukator]

I think we can assume club hierarchy includes sos

 

[andrew_]

Whenever this question pops up I am reminded of when the Milwaukee Bucks selected Joe Alexander with the eighth overall selection in the 2008 NBA Draft. The kid was a freakish athlete. He'd had a somewhat successful junior season in college. He was Caucasian. What was there not to love? Surely his athleticism was enough to make him the next Larry Bird... Right!? Well, one of the Milwaukee higher ups, (I believe) their executive VP, in his media interview after drafting him lobs timeless classic with this beauty, "We considered him to be the best athlete in the draft. Just wait until we teach him how to play basketball." After a rookie season in which he averaged just 4.7 points in 12.1 minutes and 59 games (NBA seasons have 82 games and 48 minutes so essentially he played 18% of a full season (total minutes played / minutes total) he became one of the first (if not the first) lottery picks in NBA history not to have his third year option picked up and he was unceremoniously traded to Chicago as a 'throw in' to match salaries in a trade. He played 29 minutes in 8 games for Chicago in his second and last NBA season. He averaged 4.5ppg for Maccabi Tel Aviv this season.

The answer is unequivocally no. You cannot train someone who is not naturally gifted to be a footballer to become a quality football player. Even the Irish kids who come over to Australia and perform extremely well - Stynes, Kennelly, Tuohy, etc. - have some natural disposition to play AFL football. They may not have done so previously but they pick up the skills quickly because they're naturals. You'll often read about how easy it was to teach the successful ones because they've got those innate qualities. Training and teaching somebody to become an AFL player is not as simple as teaching them how to kick, mark, tackle, handball, etc. Those are tangible skills that can be taught. What cannot be taught is the intangibles. You either have them or you do not.

What I have difficulty comprehending is that we've done rather well with highlighting the Irish kids who have a natural disposition to play AFL football. On the other hand we've had much less comparative success in targeting local (Australian) kids who are 'athletes' rather than Aussie Rules footballers. That to me tells me that something is afoul in our recruiting department. There have been too many wasted draft picks on the likes of Shaun Hampson or in trade for the Robbie Warnock's - guys who scream footballer from their height or the way in which they move but who just don't have the natural disposition to fulfill the blinded athletic potential. Though perhaps I am being a tad harsh on Warnock who I believe may have been a fine footballer in a previous era when height rather than footballing ability was necessary. Still, it shows signs of a recruiting department that has been stuck in the dark ages for far too long. We've never been a great drafting club. Never. We've had a few spectacular hits over the years but they don't marry up with the number of wasted draft picks. For every Eddie Betts type hit there has been two or more Murray Vance's and Shaun Hampson's.

Now we are left to pray and hope that Stephen Silvagni, as Navy Blue as there has ever been, has the nous and the support around him to transform the football club. For once I honestly believe in SOS. It's not going to happen overnight. It's going to take a good three or four years before this football club sees the new dawn rising. We are going to have to deal with ineptitude over the short term. We're going to have to begrudgingly accept that players who don't have the innate ability to be genuine AFL footballers are going to play significant parts in our best 22 over the next year or so with the understanding that SOS will weed them out of the list as realistically soon as he can. But, if SOS does the job that I believe that he can and that he will the new dawn of this club will be the real dawn and not the false dawn we expected to have when we traded in Chris Judd (bless him for playing the best part of his career at a club that simply had no clue what it was doing).

Ever heard of Mark Blicavs?