Live Event AMA: Transgender Player Kirsti Miller

[Ricketz]

Did you know that when an elephant sees a human the same reaction is had when a human sees a puppy?

They think we are cute.

Humans aren't some special life form because we grew some self awareness and drew the line right behind our ankles for constitutes intelligence.

Did you know that when a dog sees a human different parts of its brain light up then when it sees a dog? I'm not saying we are special, I am saying you can't assume that we perceive things the same way as any other creature.

It's highly unlikely that we do, but we just don't know.

 

[megatiger]

No they don't experience emotions like humans do. Dogs experience emotions like dogs do.

Their brains are structured differently, their sensory inputs are different, how they process sequential tasks is different. There is nothing to suggest that their feelings of emotion are anything like ours.

So because there brains are structured differently that makes them not able to experience the same emotions? Rubbish

 

[Sausages]

No they don't experience emotions like humans do. Dogs experience emotions like dogs do.

Unless you are a dog, there is no logical basis for that claim. Note I'm not saying it's incorrect, simply that the conclusion doesn't follow the proposition.

Their brains are structured differently, their sensory inputs are different, how they process sequential tasks is different. There is nothing to suggest that their feelings of emotion are anything like ours.

The same issue here, but I'll go on provide you another example, using a concept that I'm sure we can all agree on:

1 + 1 = 2

But so does

4-2, 2 x 1, 8/4, -1+3 and so on.

The output (in this argument, emotional response) is not a factor solely as regards the input - much like in the simple mathematics equations here. And you can use ever more complex mathematical inputs and calculations to arrive at the conclusion "equals 2".

As far as the end statement is concerned "nothing to suggest.....", that is speculation, not fact. "Nothing that I have read", or "Nothing that I have seen published" would be better. Given that MOST people broadly agree that higher complexity animals, particularly mammals, display emotions that can be identified, I would suggest there's strong evidence to the contrary however.

Lastly, it is possible to not have the same range and/or intensity of emotional response as another homo sapien and still be considered homo sapien.

 

[Dazzler9]

Again , your comparison with kids. Nonsensical.

The world is not simple like your mind, it is more complex and everything is not black and white.
Grow up, they are not living there lives differently. They are living how they feel internally.
Your just trying to justify a difference to match your intolerance and simplistic views.

I thought the analogy of someone identifying as a child made perfect sense. It took something to a logical extreme in order to make a point. If it helps, use Michael Jackson as a real life example of Topkent's hypothetical. It's not so nonsensical now, is it.

The point being made was that it is absolutely fine for someone to identify as whatever the hell they want. But that's not the discussion. People cannot always be free to act on their identification when it has consequences upon others. In the "child" example, it impacts on actual children. In the transgender sporting example, it impacts on natural born women athletes.

 

[Ricketz]

Unless you are a dog, there is no logical basis for that claim. Note I'm not saying it's incorrect, simply that the conclusion doesn't follow the proposition.



The same issue here, but I'll go on provide you another example, using a concept that I'm sure we can all agree on:

1 + 1 = 2

But so does

4-2, 2 x 1, 8/4, -1+3 and so on.

The output (in this argument, emotional response) is not a factor solely as regards the input - much like in the simple mathematics equations here. And you can use ever more complex mathematical inputs and calculations to arrive at the conclusion "equals 2".

As far as the end statement is concerned "nothing to suggest.....", that is speculation, not fact. "Nothing that I have read", or "Nothing that I have seen published" would be better. Given that MOST people broadly agree that higher complexity animals, particularly mammals, display emotions that can be identified, I would suggest there's strong evidence to the contrary however.

Lastly, it is possible to not have the same range and/or intensity of emotional response as another homo sapien and still be considered homo sapien.

Really not sure what you are trying to say with your musing here.

 

[Ricketz]

I thought the analogy of someone identifying as a child made perfect sense. It took something to a logical extreme in order to make a point. If it helps, use Michael Jackson as a real life example of Topkent's hypothetical. It's not so nonsensical now, is it.

The point being made was that it is absolutely fine for someone to identify as whatever the hell they want. But that's not the discussion. People cannot always be free to act on their identification when it has consequences upon others. In the "child" example, it impacts on actual children. In the transgender sporting example, it impacts on natural born women athletes.

If you have to take something to a logical extreme to prove a point, your argument is on shaky ground.

 

[Dazzler9]

If you have to take something to a logical extreme to prove a point, your argument is on shaky ground.

Is that so?. Or maybe it just means that others might not have the capacity to understand the point, so it has to put into simplistic terms that they can grasp.

 

[Sausages]

Really not sure what you are trying to say with your musing here.

That's ok dude - if you can't figure that out, then it's clear you are unable to have a logical argument.

If you have to take something to a logical extreme to prove a point, your argument is on shaky ground.

And this only further proves my point - please don't use the word "logical" in anything you say as you demonstrate no capacity to understand its application.

 

[Topkent]

It's pretty hilarious how often these arguments end the same way. One side providing an opinion (often the non PC side) and the other side just crying intolerance racism sexism or any other label they can type quick enough without actually countering the argument. The irony of screaming intolerance while abusing people isn't lost on me

 

[Bostonian]

Did you know that when an elephant sees a human the same reaction is had when a human sees a puppy?

I call rubbish on that.

You go walk up to a bunch of wild elephants and let me know how you go.

At what point when humans see a puppy do they get defensive, possibly charge and possibly injure/kill someone?

They think we are cute.

Or they think we are a threat.

Humans aren't some special life form because we grew some self awareness and drew the line right behind our ankles for constitutes intelligence.

Yes we are.

If you don't think you're some superior life form to a fly then that says a lot about your self esteem.

 

[IHurley]

Lol, no, it was a ******** comment reliant on an absurdist proposition for credibility.

You only think it reinforces your argument because you are not smart enough to realise it is junk. I am sorry, but that is clearly the truth.

Listen, you and your mates are welcome to explain why precisely the analogy is invalid but just so you know "I don't like that argument" does not count as said precise explanation.

 

[owen87]

If it falls over it falls over, to use the Semenya example at the minute there's controversy and query of the legitimacy. Instead of having doubt why not have a transgender competition? If it falls over it falls over.

The other choice is that Semenya and others in her position can compete in the "open" competition/s - at least then there's no doubting the legitimacy.

Yeah I know that leaves people like Kirsti with little choice if any and that's not fair, nor is it fair that Kyron Mcguire has brain cancer - life is it not fair.

The point is while it's noble to include transgenders in female competitions the consequence among others is there is doubt in the legitimacy and there is a possibility that transgender people may have a physical advantage in female competitions.

The majority should not need to go to impractical measures (i:e allowing those with possible unjust advantages compete) just to include a minority.

And Semenya could race against men, though wouldn’t qualify for the national team let alone win a medal. Therein is her issue.

Through dumb luck she’s born with a condition that makes her not quite the same as most other females, and that gives her a significant advantage in the sporting arena.

It’s unfortunate that she has no choice in the issue, but we limit who participates in women’s sport for a reason and - particularly at the elite level - there is no right to being able to compete at that level.

 

[Slartibartfast]

It's just a simple hypothetical to generate a discussion you are incapable of having.
Good luck changing the world by insulting people and ignoring their opinions. It's actually extremely pathetic

Your only argument is they feel there for they are. I've countered with an example when that's not allowed and you are unable to contribute anything further to the discussion.

No one has said they can't live their life, but when it comes to professional sports it's a much more complex discussion than 'do whatever you want everyone'

You have countered with an argument saying what if someone wanted to sleep with little kids as they identify as a child. Thats pathetic. Not an opinion.
Why dont you accept that there is more to sexuality than a simplistic black and white view of male and female, hard to believe in this day and age such closed mindness still exists.

You cannot accept this is who they are, a keyboard warrior who feels he can determine ones sexuality form afar. Life is so easy for you!!!
I am saying it has too be considered.
You have contributed nothing to the discussion, there not insults either just facts.

 

[Topkent]

You have countered with an argument saying what if someone wanted to sleep with little kids as they identify as a child. Thats pathetic. Not an opinion.
Why dont you accept that there is more to sexuality than a simplistic black and white view of male and female, hard to believe in this day and age such closed mindness still exists.

You cannot except this is who they are, a keyboard warrior who feels he can determine ones sexuality form afar. Life is so easy for you!!!
I am saying it has too be considered.
You have contributed nothing to the discussion, there not insults either just facts.

Shutup mate, I said they cant compete in females sports. The rest you made up yourself you moron

 

[Slartibartfast]

I thought the analogy of someone identifying as a child made perfect sense. It took something to a logical extreme in order to make a point. If it helps, use Michael Jackson as a real life example of Topkent's hypothetical. It's not so nonsensical now, is it.

The point being made was that it is absolutely fine for someone to identify as whatever the hell they want. But that's not the discussion. People cannot always be free to act on their identification when it has consequences upon others. In the "child" example, it impacts on actual children. In the transgender sporting example, it impacts on natural born women athletes.

Thing is we know for a fact that people don’t always identify with the body they were born with.
This is a proven scientific fact , not speculation.
How can sleeping with a kid analogy be alike, thats illegal??

 

[Topkent]

Thing is we know for a fact that people don’t always identify with the body they were born with.
This is a proven scientific fact , not speculation.
How can sleeping with a kid analogy be alike, thats illegal??

Because who are you to argue with someones right to identify as a child, you intolerant key board warrior

 

[Dazzler9]

Thing is we know for a fact that people don’t always identify with the body they were born with.
This is a proven scientific fact , not speculation.
How can sleeping with a kid analogy be alike, thats illegal??

Mate, you have clearly dug in to a position and are not hearing any other arguments. Topkent has, multiple times, stated that he takes no issue with people identifying as being trans. That is not something he has an issue with. His issue is clearly separate to that.

 

[Slartibartfast]

Shutup mate, I said they cant compete in females sports. The rest you made up yourself you moron

Ah yes , you started the abuse and you continue when you cannot find an argument . You have accused everyone in this thread who disputes you of being abusive, haha. You start it though.

The consummate knuckle dragger.

 

[Slartibartfast]

Mate, you have clearly dug in to a position and are not hearing any other arguments. Topkent has, multiple times, stated that he takes no issue with people identifying as being trans. That is not something he has an issue with. His issue is clearly separate to that.

Yes i know, he wants to exclude them.

 

[Topkent]

Ah yes , you started the abuse and you continue when you cannot find an argument . You have accused everyone in this thread who disputes you of being abusive, haha. You start it though.

The consummate knuckle dragger.

No one has called me abusive but you. You are now making up posts to go with the imaginary themes in your head.
Go back, grab some tissues for your eyes, re read the other posts and realise how much of a fool you are

 

[Topkent]

Yes i know, he wants to exclude them.

Dont ever put words in my mouth.

 

[megatiger]

No they don't experience emotions like humans do. Dogs experience emotions like dogs do.

Their brains are structured differently, their sensory inputs are different, how they process sequential tasks is different. There is nothing to suggest that their feelings of emotion are anything like ours.

How is the emotion of happiness, sadness, depression, anxiety and grief not the same, they go through it just like us, it’s shown through there able actions, we can read it when they do it as they do with us as well. While done differently because of being a different species, it’s definitely the same thing

 

[Sausages]

You have countered with an argument saying what if someone wanted to sleep with little kids as they identify as a child. Thats pathetic. Not an opinion.
Why dont you accept that there is more to sexuality than a simplistic black and white view of male and female, hard to believe in this day and age such closed mindness still exists.

You cannot accept this is who they are, a keyboard warrior who feels he can determine ones sexuality form afar. Life is so easy for you!!!
I am saying it has too be considered.
You have contributed nothing to the discussion, there not insults either just facts.

I'm sympathetic to the issue, but I'd like to you to consider something:

In the Paralympics, athletes are graded according to their respective disability to ensure, for example, non-leg amputees aren't running against mobility constrained athletes who may require a mobility aid. They both get to compete fairly against other people who share similar impairments in their athletic capacity, which is good - it keeps it as equal as it can be, denying nobody the right to compete.

All that is happening here is the same rules of assessment are being applied to determine an athlete's gender for competition. You can self-identify as you wish, but to keep things fair, that self-assessment isn't the only rule applied. There's more to sexuality than your plumbing, sure - just as there is more to a disability than being mobility constrained/partial or full arm amputee/learning disability etc. But you have to draw a line somewhere so that the whole process has some equity.

Some male to female trans people are considered too masculine for women's sport, just as some leg amputees are considered less restricted than those requiring a mobility aid.

I don't see why you have an issue with this.

 

[Masher]

Don't try to debate Slartibartfest he is as intolerant as they come....full of his own ego and opinions
He doesn't have the capacity for logical common sense and is a holier than thou self righteous bigot who pontificates his warped views.

I consider him and others like him to be the new fascists who will use the law and any other means to silence others

 

[Masher]

Because who are you to argue with someones right to identify as a child, you intolerant key board warrior

You bring up a genuine logical point which the intolerant, head in the sand brigade don't want to address as it hurts their thinking

The problem facing modern western societies are the new fascists who will use the law to abuse and silence others.
Slartibartfast reminds me of the saying....We are all equal but some are more equal than other ....we all know where that perverted thinking leads to