Brisbane 01-03 v Geelong 07-11 v Hawthorn 08-14.

[Cudi_420]

Except the 2011 Hawthorn side (18/4, 144.1%) would have won the minor premiership in 21 of 25 seasons

Some posters say the earnest things

I just praised Hawthorn and you're picking that out as a means to discredit my post? You had one extra good season where you didn't win the flag. But okay, let's count 2011 as well.

Oh look, that only strengthens my argument that Hawthorn had the best era of the three teams....

There's arrogant. And then there's Hawthorn suppprters.

 

[Hawkk]

I agree with the premise of your post (I apologise if it appeared arrogant)

I just think its surprising that posters discredit 2009/10 when ultimately the rise, peak, fall, rise trajectory mirrors the Cats and Lions...

Case in point, the Lions 1995/04, Cats 2004/14 and Hawthorn 2007/15

Brisbane Lions
1995 - 10/12, EF exit to Carlton (13 pts)
1996 - 15/1/6, PF exit to North Melbourne (38 pts)
1997 - 10/1/11, EF exit to St Kilda (46 pts)
1998 - 5/1/16
1999 - 16/6, PF exit to North Melbourne (45 pts)
2000 - 12/10, SF exit to Carlton (82 pts)
2001 - 17/5, PREMIERSHIP (def Ess by 26 pts)
2002 - 17/5, PREMIERSHIP (def Coll by 9 pts)
2003 - 14/1/7, PREMIERSHIP (def Coll by 50 pts)
2004 - 16/6, GF exit to Port Adelaide (40 pts)

Geelong
2004 - 15/7, PF exit to Brisbane (9 pts)
2005 - 12/10, SF exit to Sydney (3 pts)
2006 - 10/1/11
2007 - 18/4, PREMIERSHIP (def PA by 119 pts)
2008 - 21/1, GF exit to Hawthorn (26 pts)
2009 - 18/4, PREMIERSHIP (def ST K by 10 pts)
2010 - 17/5, PF exit to Collingwood (41 pts)
2011 - 19/3, PREMIERSHIP (def Coll by 38 pts)
2012 - 15/7, EF exit to Fremantle (16 pts)
2013 - 18/4, PF exit to Hawthorn (5 pts)
2014 - 17/5, SF exit to North Melbourne (6 pts)

Hawthorn
2007 - 13/9, SF exit to North Melbourne (33 pts)
2008 - 17/5, PREMIERSHIP (def Geel by 26 pts)
2009 - 9/13
2010 - 12/1/9, EF exit to Fremantle (30 pts)
2011 - 18/4, PF loss to Collingwood (3 pts)
2012 - 17/5, GF loss to Sydney (10 pts)
2013 - 19/3, PREMIERSHIP (def Frem by 15 pts)
2014 - 17/5, PREMIERSHIP (def Syd by 63 pts)
2015 - 16/6, PREMIERSHIP (def WC by 46 pts)

Premierships dont build over night they take years of planning to come to fruition. In the case of Brisbane, the Bears / Lions presented for 6 years (with a hiccup in 1998) before they won the threepeat - all with the same core group of players (Voss, Acker, Lynch, McRae, Hart, White, Ashcroft etc.) that stuck it out from 1995-2000

In the case of the Cats the accent was far quicker, losing heartbreaking PF's and SF's in 2004 and 05 before thrashing all comers to the flag. Like the Lions, the Cats core (Ling, Scarlett, Harley, Woz, Mackie, Chapman, Ablett, Mooney) took them to the 2007 and 09 flags...with minor remedial work required to rebuild the club after the 2010 debacle

In the Hawks case they took an opportunity and peaked early, perhaps ahead of their time but they presented when the Cats hurbis distracted them from the main prize, went through the same lull that plagued the Cats and Lions (accentuated by rhe expectation of being premier) and emerged the better for it. Like the Cats and Lions the Hawks core of Hodge, Mitchell, Lewis, Birchall and Roughead played a role in all four premierships...this is the core that the Hawks built their squad around.

I have no doubt that 2008 should come into calculation in much the same way 1995-2000 and 2004-06 (and 2012-14) is relevent for the Cats and Lions...

If you look at the Hawks, Cats and Lions years there is no doubt the Cats were the great underachievers

Plausibly they could have ended up with the 2007-11 flags is hurbis (2008) and a Bomber Thompson meltdown (2010) didnt distraxt their squad from the prize

 

[Hawkk]

Port Adelaide's 2015 season can possibly be seen through the lens of Brisbane 1998, Geelong 2006 and Hawthorn 2009 if they eventually kick on and become a premiership club

 

[Wetdog]

They did...

They also had an inflated playing roster after the Firzroy merger concessions

If that is the case, it makes the Hawks 12-15 period a greater achievement than Lions 01-04. The Hawks achieved 3 out of 4 flags under the same handicaps as the rest of the comp and with no league endorsed advantages.

 

[MistyAvalon]

Easily Geelong. They were destroying the opposition like no other, and they played with the flair of Brazil in soccer. Just brilliant to watch.

Lions didn't even win the regular season during their peak years.

no but t hey always belted the hell out of HAwthorn. Oh those days were nightmarish

 

[Elite Master]

Geelong were the most consistently dominate through out the H&A season and broke many records along the way. Brisbane and Hawthorn just did what they had to do in the H&A without being quite as clear cut, but have been in 4 Grand Finals in a row and have 3-peated where as Geelong couldn't even achieve back-to-back. I'd say Hawthorn, with more to come, is the best of the lot.

 

[JD Tomahawk]

I suppose I better say hawthorn now.
I wonder what H&A & Finals win/ loss looks like between them all. Not as valuable as three peats but id guess and say cats would look good in that stat.

 

[Lethality]

Geelong aren't even in the conversation anymore. It's between Brisbane and Hawthorn, and the 08 flag puts Hawthorn ahead in my view.

 

[M Malice]

in terms of consistency bundling home and away form and finals form i would say hawthorn. if all 3 teams were playing their absolute best football against each other in a one off game i would say brisbane. the fab 4 of voss, lappin, black and akermanis in my opinion shades geelong and hawthorns mids, and with brown, bradshaw and lynch at their best would be very hard to contain up forward.
2 other views. 1. i still have nightmares about the lions 2004 campaign. towards the end of that season they were playing some of the best footy they had played in that 01-04 period, then the fact that they had to play an earned home prelim away in melbourne and to make it worse on a saturday night so they had no time to get back to brissy that night was just wrong by the afl. also brown and lynch were passengers that day with injury, in hindsight probably shouldn't have played. shaun harts injury in the prelim i think was also a big blow.
2. if hawthorn can keep their top side fit in 2016 especially hodge, mitchell, burgoyne and rioli i can not see anyone beating them in a finals series. that would end the debate they would then clearly be the GOAT.
saying all that i may be biased, go lions

 

[Roddy]

Geelong aren't even in the conversation anymore. It's between Brisbane and Hawthorn, and the 08 flag puts Hawthorn ahead in my view.

It really is as simple as this.

 

[Hawkk]

But, but 3 in 5 years is historically much more difficult to win than 3-in-a-row or 4 in 8 years

 

[IschenkoUBeauty]

Lions got on with business in a 'no-frills' way...never finished top of the ladder in any of their premiership years and were written off by a few, especially in '03 when they lost their first final to Collingwood....but smashed them in the grand final instead. Same happened with the Hawks after they lost their first final to WCE this year.

 

[Judd2Sewell]

Combined side from Geelong 07 - 11 and Hawthorn 12 - 15:

Edit: Whoops, realised this is for Hawthorn of 08 - 14.

 

[M Malice]

Combined side from Geelong 07 - 11 and Hawthorn 12 - 15:

Edit: Whoops, realised this is for Hawthorn of 08 - 14.

View attachment 211812

like that side. i'd back this one though

chris johnson mal michael chris scott
darryl white justin leppitsch luke power

clark keating michael voss simon black
nigel lappin shaun hart brad scott

jason akermanis jonathan brown craig mcrae
daniel bradshaw alistair lynch ashley mcgrath

martin pike marcus ashcroft tim notting robert copeland

those were the days my friends.

 

[Judd2Sewell]

like that side. i'd back this one though

chris johnson mal michael chris scott
darryl white justin leppitsch luke power

clark keating michael voss simon black
nigel lappin shaun hart brad scott

jason akermanis jonathan brown craig mcrae
daniel bradshaw alistair lynch ashley mcgrath

martin pike marcus ashcroft tim notting robert copeland

those were the days my friends.

yeah but mine has pretty colors

(the combined sides wouldn't lose a game for the entire season, unless they wanted to)

 

[Procrastinator35]

like that side. i'd back this one though

chris johnson mal michael chris scott
darryl white justin leppitsch luke power

clark keating michael voss simon black
nigel lappin shaun hart brad scott

jason akermanis jonathan brown craig mcrae
daniel bradshaw alistair lynch ashley mcgrath

martin pike marcus ashcroft tim notting robert copeland

those were the days my friends.

Meh....Not a patch on:

Gibson-Lake-Birchall
Hodge-Croad-Burgoyne
Crawford-Mitchell-Smith
Rioli-Franklin-Gunston
Breust-Roughead-Dew

Hale-Lewis-Sewell

Guerra, McEvoy, Shiels, Frawley

 

[Dom PC]

Meh....Not a patch on:

Gibson-Lake-Birchall
Hodge-Croad-Burgoyne
Crawford-Mitchell-Smith
Rioli-Franklin-Gunston
Breust-Roughead-Dew

Hale-Lewis-Sewell

Guerra, McEvoy, Shiels, Frawley

Too bad for you that team never existed.

Perhaps suggest a team that actually got on the park together?

 

[Schraderbrau]

The thing about Brisbane was that even their spuds were very good players.

 

[Lethality]

Brisbane had a lot of size uniformity across their list. Even their key defenders such as Darryl White, Justin Leppitsch, Mal Michael were really just midfield size. The only massive players were the rucks, and the key forwards.

 

[Ozil]

Geelong of 2007-09 played the best football I've ever watched, even if they're (arguably) not as accomplished as the other two sides.

 

[HolyWars]

Brisbane had a lot of size uniformity across their list. Even their key defenders such as Darryl White, Justin Leppitsch, Mal Michael were really just midfield size. The only massive players were the rucks, and the key forwards.

Well I wouldn't call White a key defender. You need to remember, many mids and KPPs were generally quite a bit shorter and lighter 10 years ago compared to today. Sometimes you would get the really big guys like Brown, Gehrig, Cummings, etc., but they were considered to be unusually big forwards. When comparing the mids back then to the KPPs, there is reasonable height and weight difference.

Example, their midfield was:
Voss: 183cm - 88kg
Black: 186cm - 82kg
Akermanis: 177cm - 83kg
Lappin: 188cm - 87kg


KPPs
Michael: 190cm - 100kg
Leppitsch: 191cm - 97kg
Brown: 195cm - 102kg
Lynch: 193cm - 97kg

It would be like saying Croad (190cm - 96kg), Fevola (191cm, 100kg), Darryl Wakelin (192cm - 95kg) or Scott Lucas (192cm - 97kg) were midfield sized when they clearly weren't. I would say that anything 190cm/90kg and above, particularly back then constitutes a KPP sized player.

 

[schmuttt]

Mal Michael

midfield size

....

 

[Lethality]

Well I wouldn't call White a key defender. You need to remember, many mids and KPPs were generally quite a bit shorter and lighter 10 years ago compared to today. Sometimes you would get the really big guys like Brown, Gehrig, Cummings, etc., but they were considered to be unusually big forwards. When comparing the mids back then to the KPPs, there is reasonable height and weight difference.

Example, their midfield was:
Voss: 183cm - 88kg
Black: 186cm - 82kg
Akermanis: 177cm - 83kg
Lappin: 188cm - 87kg


KPPs
Michael: 190cm - 100kg
Leppitsch: 191cm - 97kg
Brown: 195cm - 102kg
Lynch: 193cm - 97kg

It would be like saying Croad (190cm - 96kg), Fevola (191cm, 100kg), Darryl Wakelin (192cm - 95kg) or Scott Lucas (192cm - 97kg) were midfield sized when they clearly weren't. I would say that anything 190cm/90kg and above, particularly back then constitutes a KPP sized player.

Nah they were still pretty short for the day, compare it to Hawthorn's backline, with Rawlings at 196cm, Hay 194cm, Croad 190, and it looks like Brisbane definitely trended towards smaller mobile defenders.

Example, their midfield was:
Voss: 183cm - 88kg
Black: 186cm - 82kg
Akermanis: 177cm - 83kg
Lappin: 188cm - 87kg


KPPs
Michael: 190cm - 100kg
Leppitsch: 191cm - 97kg
Brown: 195cm - 102kg
Lynch: 193cm - 97kg

Brown and Lynch were the exceptions which I mentioned in my post.

Compare their midfield size with their key defenders and there is not much difference.

Then you have midfielders like Headland, Notting, Copeland, Hadley who were also in that 'in between' size range.

 

[M Malice]

Nah they were still pretty short for the day, compare it to Hawthorn's backline, with Rawlings at 196cm, Hay 194cm, Croad 190, and it looks like Brisbane definitely trended towards smaller mobile defenders.



Brown and Lynch were the exceptions which I mentioned in my post.

Compare their midfield size with their key defenders and there is not much difference.

Then you have midfielders like Headland, Notting, Copeland, Hadley who were also in that 'in between' size range.

yer, when you see the height of players like dunstall 188cm, lockett 191cm, ablett snr. 185cm, coventry 183cm, wade 188cm. they are around the same size or smaller than some midfielders in todays footy. fyfe 190cm, pendlebury 191cm, mundy 192cm, kennedy (swans) 188cm, dangerfield 188cm.
growth hormones in the chicken and beef maybe

 

[HolyWars]

Nah they were still pretty short for the day, compare it to Hawthorn's backline, with Rawlings at 196cm, Hay 194cm, Croad 190, and it looks like Brisbane definitely trended towards smaller mobile defenders.



Brown and Lynch were the exceptions which I mentioned in my post.

Compare their midfield size with their key defenders and there is not much difference.

Then you have midfielders like Headland, Notting, Copeland, Hadley who were also in that 'in between' size range.

As you said, they were more mobile, but they certainly weren't "really just midfield sized" for the time that they played in. There were a lot of KPPs around that size, and I would be surprised if there was 1 midfielder of the same size at the time. It would have been more accurate to say that they were on the shorter end of the KPP spectrum. If you compared them to today, then you could make the original claim.

FWIW, Copeland was a half back flanker (187cm/85kg), Healand was (185cm, 90kg) and Notting (188cm, 89kg).